Money, money, money
A few months ago (June 29th) my spirit was struggling some with how local churches spend money. Today I read (and re-read, and re-read) Alex’s post on “A Reversal of Kingdom Capital” and over the last week, some of my emails with James have also discussed the struggle between supporting valid needs of local churches and using money in more practical ways by helping people meet their everyday needs financially.
For me, personally, some of the struggle comes with the fact that I am employed full time at a church. I feel so fortunate to have a steady and generous (not exuberant) salary, health insurance, dental, vision, retirement, paid time off, conference time and money, and even a small amount for growth (books, magazines, etc.). Also, our church makes our financial reports very public and we have several people in the church, as well as outside accountants keeping a watchful eye on spending. So, my struggle isn’t in the integrity of how our church handles money specifically.
However, Alex’s post, for some reason, really struck a chord with me that sort of resonates back to an earlier post from last week where Kyle and I talked about how sometimes, the church culture seems to almost segregate by denominations and by something as simple as a building…”What church do you go to?”
Now, let me tie these two together – Although I know local churches are often doing incredible jobs at reaching their neighborhoods and the world, I am personally questioning if it would be wrong (I can’t think of a better word) for one to give financally to other areas instead of giving to his or her local place of worship.
I mean, it’s not just about my church – it’s about The Church… Right?
Before you comment, I know the easy answer would be giving to both – a place of worship and above and beyond that, give to the poor or help meet other’s financial needs – Trust me, I’ve heard that one my whole entire Sunday School life…
And I don’t want an easy answer.
Comments
2 responses to “Money, Money, Money!”
Here are some comments from this discussion on my Xanga.
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You could just give to both… j/k. Although, I’ll throw out one idea (I haven’t really thought it through, so who knows). You give time to one and money to the other.
Here’s a bigger question, and one which probably hits what you’re talking about. I think you were getting at this with the integrity part of the post. Should the Church and churches be giving to the poor and needy, such that you don’t have to feel this pulling in two directions?
I wrestle with this one, as well. Honestly, I don’t know any good answers.
Posted 11/6/2005 at 11:36 PM by thereeser
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*Correction
“Shouldn’t the Church…”
Posted 11/6/2005 at 11:37 PM by thereeser
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Kyle ~ Good input, thanks. Can I dig a little deeper into your reply? (Waits for response) – I’ll take the silence as a yes. :)
You say, “Shouldn’t the Church and churches be giving to the poor and needy, such that you don’t have to feel this pulling in two directions?” and the answer is clearly yes. But what about churches who do give to the poor and needy, and supports missions local and beyond?
As an example, and I won’t get into numbers here, but our church has clear plan of how money is distributed to Jerusalem (here/Shawnee/20 minute radius), Judea (KC Metro), Samaria (The underprivledged/forgotten/rebuked) and the ends of the earth (World/global.) So I know that the money given to this area is spread out to reach these areas.
But I also won’t lie and say (and I am guilty of this as well in my area of the budget) spending money on things that really aren’t necessary but that ice the cake. I’ll use my area as an example – but things like four-color bulletins and sweet software for video editing. Lately, I have been making myself sick everytime I turn in a check request for our printer because I can see how that amount of money could literally feed several families for a month. No kidding.
THAT…is where my battle is. Where my heart questions. When I don’t know how much to speak up and ask or to shut up and listen.
Posted 11/6/2005 at 11:52 PM by flowerdust
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Ah…one of the best marketing strategies the world has ever known. Over the years, the church has successfully turned “money” into one of the most talked about topics on Sunday. I almost never hear pastors talk about the spiritual values of fasting, meditation, etc. Tithing messages probably outnumber all other spiritual discipline talks combined 10 to 1. Yeah, I know people will argue people like me are just bitter, but I have seen my “mega-church” become so worried about money that it has become an obsession. When I was on stuff, the powers that be forced us to write a small group curriculum study on “Generous Living” for our small groups to use. It ended up being a great study, but they did it because tithing was down.
We teach from the stage that we shouldn’t let money control our lives…that we shouldn’t obsess over it…and yet most churches do. I’m not saying we shouldn’t tithe, but I’ve never had a spiritual leader ask me the last time I fasted.
Steve
Posted 11/7/2005 at 12:28 AM by fullersj –
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These are weighty questions. For me, it’s always necessary to go back to the root of the issue. What does the Bible say?
I’m less concerned in what the local church says (when it diverges from scripture) because I choose to follow God’s word.
I see a clear distinction between the Old Testament and New Testament examples, as we do about many topics. The present examples are vastly divergent from what we find in Acts. IMO, most messages in church today regarding money are focused on maintaining Old Testament principles (“bring your 10% to the storehouse”) in an effort to sustain and expand the local church.
Like it or not, pastors have a vested interest in maintaining this message.
When was the last time you heard an altar call asking all the rich people to sell all they have and give to the poor (which, by the way, all the people in our churches are rich compared to the rest of the world)? Are the messages about greed to help people live lives free of the love of money or to help the 80% (pareto principle) give their 10%?
(No offense to you Anne, just picking up on your topic above) how many mouths could be fed, orphanges built, wells dug, lives changed if the church just simply went back to monochrome photocopies of their bulletins. Do four-color copies really make the difference in whether or not someone comes to Jesus or commits to the local church?
We do these things to look polished and modern to make people want to be a part of our church.
I fear most churches won’t ever traverse down this road of reasoning. Why? Because you start with questioning four color copies and you end up wondering if the church building is really necessary.
Why not a worn stenographed flier, with smears of dirt and blood on it, offering people a chance to die for something that matters? We’re afraid that message isn’t pallatable. We’ve become so civilized yet our numbers continue to decline, our influence lessens, and our children choose not to follow.
Anne, don’t stop asking the questions. We must ask and wrestle and cause change to happen.
Is the unexamined life worth living?
breathe fire.
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Hi. I’m Gwen. This is the kind of question that makes me feel like a worm on a hot rock!
In my life…The Holy Spirit directs when we truly seek His will with our money. That probably sounds glib but it’s really life changing if we allow it to be. We give to our church, it is our home base, it has staff and rent; it’s our responsibility. However, I can think of more than a few occasions this year when we have taken our tithe, all or part and worshipped God through answering the needs of another. We give anonymously if at all possible, we don’t want anyone thanking us by mistake and missing the point. Please do not read anything prideful into this statement, that would make me ill; but I we have been directed to do things that seemed financially impossible or unwise at best. We were directed to: 1) buy someone a new furnace 1) pay off our car and then give it to someone 3) pay behind housepayments for someone, etc. etc. There isn’t any way I could have done any of those out of my surplus or in addition to my tithe, we’re not wealthy people; I could have chosen to bless someone less needy, but that was not what we were led (compelled) to do. Besides, I couldn’t have bought someone part of a furnace or part of a car. These gifts were not our idea, we were just obedient; often reluctantly truth be told. Here’s the Glorify part: in most of these cases, our personal income was increased unexpectedly (we’re both full commission) almost immediately and our tithe to our church increased almost to offset the ministry gift. (You cannot give in order to get though, it doesn’t work). I don’t know if I’ve explained this very well, but I hope you all get the point. YES! I have a “church” (the whole body) and I have a “place of worship”, it’s not a question of giving to both or one or some, it’s a question of obedience in following the Holy Spirit’s leading with how I spend THIS tithe check. Someone once said “God doesn’t have trouble getting money TO you, He has trouble getting money THROUGH you. I will always remember that. I appreciate that you would struggle over the 4 color expenditure. We ask “is it well with my soul”? to help guide us in situations like yours. Great examination tool. Thanks!
Posted 11/7/2005 at 6:45 AM by awarriorprincess
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back to work…back to work…to prove to dad i’m not a dork! gosh don’t you just love adam sandler!
Posted 11/7/2005 at 10:04 AM by Cox8585 –
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Maybe a related question is how much is MY church reflecting THE Church, as you put it? I have noticed that, although I have tithed for some time, I am more generous with my money now that I am involved with a local church that I really believe is representing Christ and his church in our community. And I also believe that the leaders of said church would be very happy to know that I am also giving my money to other organizations that are taking God out into the streets and the world, not to mention the random acts of kindness and generosity that God keeps nudging me to do – however reluctantly at times :)
So, I guess I finally feel a peace in my heart with how I am giving -whether it is at times splitting my tithe or at times giving over and above it. I agree – the Holy Spirit definitely chimes in on this one if we are open.
Posted 11/7/2005 at 11:42 AM by notsostrange
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Anne- This is a tough one. I’m sure working for the church makes it extra difficult. Ultimately, I think Gwen is right that you have to follow where the Spirit is leading. If that means splitting or shifting your tithe, so be it. However, this may be a situation where your “guilt” over doing some of this is a nudge for you to bring these issues before the church leadership. I mean, if there are things in your department that you feel are somewhat frivilous, then it is likely to be that way across the board. Maybe, this is a time to send a reminder to the church that doing things with excellence does not necessitate doing them with excess!
Posted 11/7/2005 at 12:03 PM by thereeser
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what time? i’ll be there if i can! i’m goin to see jess play at mill valley. they’re having their powder puff football game today at 4. you should come! tracy will be there. it’s gonna be real funny to see them pounding eachother! but yeah i’ll be there if i can!
Posted 11/7/2005 at 1:01 PM by Cox8585
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You do realize that I’ll be thinking about this all day, now. My parents’ church just received a donation of 16 acres of land, and they will now start the process of building new buildings, and moving their gatherings. So, between your post and my own disdain for building campaigns, I’ll be wrestling with this for a while.
Posted 11/7/2005 at 1:11 PM by thereeser
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I have been struggling with this same thing! I am in the middle of pulling my financial support from the home church and giving it to the new church plant, but at the same time I want to much to do the mystic nation 9% thing that Alex talks about. I am just not so sure that I responsible or disciplined enough to consistently spend the 9% wisely. As it is, I struggle with tithing unless it is an automatic deposit….I am trying to give to a church that is worthy, in need (notsostrange), and resonates with my calling, and giving more than 10% away. In truth I really learn how to live with LESS and give MORE away…
Posted 11/7/2005 at 4:41 PM by stinkowoman
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my perspective on this is probably going to be a little different… but i’m ok with rockin’ the boat on this one… :)
lori mentioned alex’s idea on tithing to me shortly after she heard about it. then i later read alex’s post on it… and honestly, the whole idea never really sat well with me… i guess as i read acts, the thing that strikes me about the generous way the earliest followers of Jesus lived is that they practiced that generosity together in a communal way. and i like that communal aspect of giving in a local body of believers. i like that what God can do through me for my city is increased as the resources are added to what others are contributing. it’s an opportunity to connect and be the body of Christ… it’s like a marriage. it would be similar if a wife were to tell her husband, ‘ok, honey. i’ll take this portion of the budget and spend it however i want. you take that portion of the budget and spend it however you want. i won’t ask questions about what you’re doing with the money if you don’t ask me questions. won’t that be peachy?’ or really, it’s like husband and wife are operating totally separate lives financially, separate incomes flowing into separate bank accounts as they make separate decisions on how to spend and how to save. they may as well live in separate homes… i want to be part of a team, not flying solo.
i happen to work full-time for a ministry-related organization that isn’t a church. and i struggle all the time with why people would want to give us money or why what i’m doing is even important (this is a long story, and one i don’t really blog about, but i’d be happy to go into it over email or coffee or something). and it’s a struggle as i look at how churches spend on stuff i love like a sound system or lighting or creating a space that’s visually appealing and inspiring because i know there’s other ways that money could be used. so i understand the tension here…
still, there’s got to be some way of being radically generous in a way that’s more for people than it is for self-preservation and buildings but still radically one, as the early church was and how Jesus wanted us to be. how can our gifts and our time and, yes, our money be something that brings followers of Jesus together for the sake of His kingdom instead of something divisive? how can we do life together financially?
(that’s not to say that i wouldn’t encourage random acts of individual generosity… i just think the goal should be both/and not either/or. oh, and there are instances in the new testament of people being supported financially as they do ministry. there were also people like paul who chose secular work in order to free up more resources for other needs and to show those he served that he wasn’t in it for the money. but that was a choice. i don’t think it’s a black/white issue.)
um, so when you make a parenthetical comment, and it’s a full paragraph, it must be time to go… :)
Posted 11/7/2005 at 5:46 PM by Sheplaysamartin
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Brought this question up at a dinner function with other believers tonite. One said “that’s stupid to do that, there’s no tax deduction. You’re being a poor steward of your money. Give it to the church and let your church help the poor.” EEEgad Am I being a poor steward of my money for doing this?
Posted 11/7/2005 at 8:53 PM by awarriorprincess
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Oh Gwen,
That makes me sick. I’m sorry to say that, but I highly disagree with the people you were talking with. Even when Chris & I tithe and give to the building fund at our church, we do it in cash, anonymously. If you were to “look” to see how much we have given this year, it would say 0 for tithes and 0 for building because we only do it in cash as NOT to get a tax break. Giving to get perks is stupid (sorry, I’m just kinda blunt). Most of the time we figure our taxes to break even so it wouldn’t make a difference either way.
But, that is just my opinion. Thanks everyone for your very thoughtful comments and thoughts on this – praying and letting the spirit guide – that always seems like the answer for everything :) Wonder why… :)
Posted 11/7/2005 at 9:08 PM by flowerdust
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Anne,
amazing and substantive conversation on your blog. not only your provocative question but the thoughtfulness of the comments is impressive.
i think we would all agree that it is right to give and give generously. so we’re together on this one. we all know that the fact that we use most of our resources for ourselves in our churches rather than for the poor is a thorn in the flesh of the western church.
it’s a thorn in my flesh. i’d like to redirect my life and giving in that direction like steve (aka breath fire) prophetically reminds us. thanks, steve.
i totally agree with “sheplaysamartin” that giving can be a communal effort. i’m shooting for that with The Mystic. moreover, i think she’s right about the varying configurations of giving patterns in the NT.
i suggest, anne, that giving through a local church can be a noble and good thing. i totally understand your angst about the costs of printing. keep that tenderness of spirit but don’t let guilt overwhelm you. the people your church is trying to reach may require a certain standard.
Now, my take on your question…i think the 501c3 corporations we know as local churches are not the the only God ordained expressions meriting the name “church, nor are they the only structures through which we can honorably and properly give.
james is right about those who choose to be employed within these structures. it’s right and proper if we choose to be on these teams to be supporters of the team. receive it as an opportunity for the kingdom and an opportunity to be part of one of the “good ones.”
as for me, i am not employed by any particular local church. i seek to serve the church at large, but primarily i seek to follow Christ into what i see as a new world. my project in the “search for the mystic’ is not meant to disregard the excellent ministries of many local churches and church plants, but to add a new dimension to the Christ following movement. i think it will also be good and noble to give exclusively in this way…and other ways. the corporate church does not have a monopoly on giving. for example, a cell group or house church, that is not incorporated, could communally give to some cause or project or mission and nothing would be wrong with that. what is required is generosity and connecting with others who will give their lives with us that the triumph of Christ might resound in all the earth.
in the end, hopefully, kingdom capital will be released both through The Mystic and through repentant churches in a way that will more effectively advance the kingdom to the ends of the earth. but in the end i do tend to think new forms are emerging that will be the demise of many local churches that needed to die a long time ago.
congratulations, anne, on a terrific section.
i hope i haven’t posted too much. regards to chris.
Posted 11/7/2005 at 9:17 PM by alexmcmanus
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Alex,
Thank you so much for your comments. I agree with you that the people in our area do expect a certain level of professionalism. Then my mind questions further into what the role of the local church is in feeding a consumeristic mindset that is so evident. How far is too far?
I love the idea of how an unincorporated gathering of believers can and should give to worthy causes – and how this is such a radical shift compared to what we, at least people in our generation – have been taught.
Posted 11/7/2005 at 10:04 PM by flowerdust
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Thanks Anne, it is well with my soul. He has a very old, very churched, very narrow mentality and it shook me.
Posted 11/7/2005 at 10:09 PM by awarriorprincess
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Gwen, sorry to be so…lacking in tact…in my reply to you. I get passionate sometimes and speak before thinking…I hope you will forgive me. ;)
Posted 11/7/2005 at 10:11 PM by flowerdust
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Please Anne, I can teach you a lot about lack of tact. I found it affirming.
Posted 11/7/2005 at 10:17 PM by awarriorprincess
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you are lovely. that post just came from my insides.
Posted 11/7/2005 at 10:59 PM by crystalrenaud
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My perspective on this –
It’s really difficult to break out of my “churched” mold and say that it is okay to tithe anywhere but the local church, but then I remind myself that He has it all. If He chooses to financially enable The Journey to move forward, He will do it by prompting those people whose hearts are passionately entwined with the vision of where we want to go and are obedient to Him. When we listen to Him, He will direct us. It is our job to listen and then obey.
If God is telling you to give somewhere, then give.
Gwen, I know someone who just broke their car. She could use a Cadillac that is programmed to say, “Hello, Beth.” (LOL!)
Posted 11/8/2005 at 7:56 AM by RevzWife
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Ill let you know if I feel that prompting…for now I would be happy to haul you to work!
Posted 11/8/2005 at 8:45 AM by awarriorprincess
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Something that RevzWife said here clicked a thought. I remember reading a blog (maybe Alex’s) a while back where tithing was discussed. Some people were talking about not giving to their local church, but their attitude was something of higher piety. Like they had arrived at a “new plane” of giving. I really liked what sheplaysamartin said above about communal giving. So, I guess where I’m going with this is: we should all follow the Spirit… but, we should also make sure that our motives are from the Spirit, not some false sense of pride for “giving to the needy.” I hope that makes sense.
Posted 11/8/2005 at 8:55 AM by thereeser
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Is it possible that the church being more missional would result in more people tithing?
Any thoughts on why so many “para” church organizations are popping up? Maybe we need to follow the progress of this discussion to why organizations are having to do what the church should be doing?
[…] A few weeks ago, Kyle Reese had a great post on his blog. It challenged the way I sometimes think about the way local churches spend money on expensive items (a previous post of mine, “Money, Money, Money” expressed some of my thoughts.) […]