i am sitting on i-35 in austin right now, very grateful for the 3g wireless card plugged into my mbp. traffic is a little better with a litlte wifi.
occasionally i get emails that i think can provoke some awesome discussion.
“what’s the deal with most modern churches? i understand the idea of local churches, but doesn’t that mean a body of believers within a community (not necessarily a “building”)? and with technology the way it is nowadays, can’t a community be practically anywhere? why do i feel guilty for not serving in my local “building” when i know i serve others daily in my life. why do i feel guilty for not being in a small group or always going to a service that my local “building” coordinates when i know i hang out with other believers regularly? why do i feel guilty when i don’t tithe to my local “building” but i give money to other believers and causes that i feel led to give to? is the culture of the modern church one that is so singularly focused that the local church has become an institution and not a lifestyle, which i think is the way the new testament intended it to be? i know there is a need for churches in our culture, but why do those churches make other ways seem unacceptable?”
any takers?? let’s discuss…
Comments
49 responses to “from the mailbag”
We seem to turn everything new into a religious thing and build a box around it and try to make everyone else fit into that box. The results are guilt and condemnation and less creativity in Christianity.
The only phrase that comes to my mind is being in community with others where you can be in a authentic relationship and held accountable in their lives. The vehicle that takes may look different for each one of us. Having said that, I would ask the writer of the email if they are in community in relationship with others where they can be held accountable and authentic.
Also,in my opinion there is something special and powerful while worshipping in a corporate setting.
Thanks for starting this thread, Anne. I had thought I might be alone in these reoccurring bouts of guilt.
I believe I am working for God all the time, but not within the four walls of a designated building nor am I working within a church’s program. I am out in the community (in the inner city) doing whatever comes my way wherever it may be located.
I used to be generous with my tithes and gifts to God while I was still working, but once I went on Social Security–so I could devote all my time to God, I did not have money to give. Instead, I offered all of my time. I have been made to feel so uncomfortable I have moved on from two churches.
My part-time job as a Faith-based Organizer in the inner city allows me to have an excuse for attending a different church each Sunday in order for me to become better acquainted with each congregation’s community service offerings. I am really enjoying doing this and I seem to be able to meet the same God wherever I go–no matter the style of worship nor the doctrine espoused.
And as for my personal feeding, I find it on the Internet. I put up my first website about nine years ago and the connections I’ve made there with so many serious seekers have profoundly changed me and have brought me closer in relationship with the Father.
On the Internet, I find many share my passion for this Awesome God and I like to come to the Internet community to refresh and renew so that I am more energized when I move out into the community where God is thought of as a resource for “other people”.
I think it depends on your church as to how much guilt you will be made to feel. I find that some pastors/preachers find the need to guilt people into “volunteering” or giving $ so they can try to fill the pew. It’s sad. But there is also another end of the spectrum – a church that doesn’t really care if you come or go. Having attended a church for almost 10 years – served on the worship band – tech team – men’s ministry and in the children’s ministry, having issues in my life I backed away from the church & then….nobody called, nobody came,nobody reached out. Now, I am made to feel guilty for not attending?
Guilt can be good – when it is poured out by the Holy Spirit, but when it’s poured out by others it’s almost paralyzing.
How one gets to God – via the web or in a building – is no matter. with that said, I do believe that God wants us to have relationships that reach beyond the “virtual” and into reality so we can be side by side holding, praying, and helping when we can.
I have no clue if I stayed on topic or not…I need more coffee.
later –
T
As believers, we are meant to function together as one body. We need each other. I enjoy my Internet fellowship, but no way can it replace that flesh-and-bone sister or brother I can hug on a Sunday morning.
i think the onset of internet communication has made it easy for us to stay “connected” with others because it gives us the ability to manage that connection. we log in and we log out….
most of us are on our best behavior – we’re able to photo-shop and spell-check our way through the interaction. we’ve lost some of our authenticity, our humanity, and maybe even our “imago dei” in the process.
this ability to manage our interactions does have its benefits – i’m quick to admit that i’m DAILY blessed by some of the relationships i’ve formed via the blogworld… but i think living solely in a net-church may lessen (or atleast LIMIT) those hard and painful “iron sharpening iron” moments. these are the moments that we can’t “log out” of… these are the moments that really make or break us.
Let me start a little off subject by saying I do see the good in the internet and e-mail but it drives me crazy that my 16 year old son can only talk to his friends via e-mail or IM. I don’t think he knows how to pick up a phone and talk to a human being.
That being said, the fellowship of christian friends is way over rated. If conviction and guilt come from the Holy Spirit then we better listen. If it’s from friends or the pulpit it’s not right, most of the time.
I have not given up on the local church. But I will get my teaching primarily from my own study of the Word. I will also be primarily responsible for the teaching of the scriptures to my children.
This comes from a person who has been in full-time Christian ministry since 1969. I’m not bragging but I’m tired of having guys who say they’ve been youth pastors for 10 years and are now becoming a lead pastor and know what the ministry is all about simply because they’ve been to a C3 conference at Fellowship Church in Dallas or a Willowcreek conference or read Rick Warren’s books.
Oh, and one more thing. This whole accountability thing is out of hand. I am accountable to God and God alone. That is it.
I tip for you out there who are thinking about having an accountability partner. Take some time on that and pray, pray, pray first. And when you’ve prayed enough….pray some more. If you want to have someone you’re accountable to and God definitely moves, ok. If someone else says they want you to be accountable to them, a RED flag should go up. Get out of there.
I have been reading The Ragamuffin Gospel…totally touches this subject. Guilt, church, love. Awesome. I kinda have a differing view on the accountability thing. We were made to watch out for one another. Yes..accountable to God alone (in the end), but along the way in my life there have some amazing people who have directed me towards the Cross. I am kinda blinded by my own stupidity at times and those who love my most have been right there to love me back to reality. Anne has been one of those people. I wonder if those who are isolated have been wounded one to many times.
And yet the people who don’t go regularly to a local Church still really want us in full-time ministry to “keep in touch” and they thank us to the core for checking in to see how they are. It has been the difference between our church not growing or growing. It’s not about numbers; it’s about “Do they know we are Christians by our love?” Hurting people can tell whether it’s genuine love or phoniness. Every Saturday I make it a vital point to call people who miss; not being nosey, but just a hiya, what’s up, I know you exist and what can we do to help? I can “feel” the gratefulness coming over the phone. People need our genuine love and concern. Jesus went to every kind of human being; it didn’t matter. Following His example gives all of us hope, compassion, and an attitude of hey, I exist and so do you! We all need each other; and need to hear what the Holy Spirit has given our Pastor to teach us. Thanks Anne, for thinking of us while in Austin!
To Kristiapplesauce, my wife and I (with kids) are alone now but when we’ve been hurt it’s been when we’ve been with people, pouring our hearts into the ministry. We’ve both seen it over and over again in missionary work and in the local church. We are basically done with getting stabbed in the back by people we sing with, laugh with, worship with, cry with, and so on. It may be lonely alone but it’s brought our family together. Our kids still have friends. We don’t want to keep them from it. We are just trying to instill into them that Christ is the only one that is closer than a brother.
This post really caused me to panic because, at first, I could not figure out if I had written it or it was someone else. (The grammar was better and thoughts a tad to organized to be me) =) Freaky.
I read “Jim & Casper Go To Church” a week or two ago. It was nice, because I needed to be reminded that there are great examples of the “church” out there that break the mold, build relationships and “do” stuff.
I’ll check out the “Ragamuffin Gospel”.
Life seems to push all of us (believers) to come to a point where we realize Christ is all we need and all we need is Christ. I heard (second-hand) that Phil Vischer (Veggie Tales) wrote in his book that he had seen his dream fall apart and God could have intervened at several points but did not. He reached that point.
I think loving Jesus with all of your heart and building solid, godly relationships with people hits the first two greatest “commandments in the law”: [Matt 22:36-39]. If I end up doing that with or without a church body, so be it.
–Jason, christian, geek, practicing the three R’s ( http://www.ccda.org/ )
So many great questions! Here goes…
1) If you are feeling guilty about something, take the time to explore why. Could the Holy Spirit be trying to tell you something?
2) God values community. If we are fully devoted followers, we would also value His values. Consider this Scripture: “Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another-and all the more as you see the Day approaching.” Hebrews 10:25
3) Bill Hybels once wrote that he believed the local church to be the hope of the world. I agree. It’s the vehicle by which God works to redeem His children. Is it perfect? No, b/c it’s full of imperfect people. Is it messy? Yes, sometimes, but so is our daily lives. Is it a physical building? No! It’s the body of believers. But an eye can’t function without the heart. The big toe can’t say “Leg, you’ve hurt me too much. I’m on my own now.” We are all interdependent with Christ as the Head. We need each other. See 1 Cor. 12:12-27.
4) Tithes belong to God. They are His, and they are holy. His desire is for them to be brought to the “storehouse” or the local church. (See Malachi 3:8-12) Tithes are one way in which God empowers the local church to reach out into the world to make a difference. I believe one reason why most American churches are ineffective is because most Americans do not honor God’s tithe.
4) Lastly, I think the main question being raised here is how to define “community.” Technology is takig it to an all new level. People can have community, via the internet or cell phones, and never see each other face-to-face. Is it real community? It can be. Is it perfect? No, but neither is any community where people put up walls and act fake. We are all filled with One Spirit. The same Spirit. He can, and will, unite us no matter where we are. He’s uniting me and you and Anne right now. God values community. Value community-seek it out however and wherever you can. Just be in community. End sermon. :)
I think the writer of the e-mail is asking good questions, but the issue is definitely not technology. There is nothing different about what we can do with church organically now that we couldn’t do fifty years ago. Or a hundred. Or a thousand.
The church began as an organic being, representing the assembly of the body of Christ, on earth, designed to reveal His full glory. Within a couple hundred years, this was perverted into an institutional structure, and organic forms of ministry were even outlawed by the state. Only “proper” forms of worship were allowed, with a full priest, in a sacred place. Christianity went from being something beautiful and unique to something ordinary and common, just like any other religion.
This has nothing to do with technology. This has everything to do with our spiritual nature desiring something more organic than what the modern church can offer us in a program-driven environment, because the modern church has redefined what is “proper,” taking the position that what is described plainly in scripture is something that is improper, and taking things that scripture either doesn’t mention or even explicitly warns us against and treating it as normative.
I know this has been said in this thread but I just want to make sure.
We should only repent out of guilt or shame but please please do not do other things out of shame or guilt.
You feel guilty about not paying tithes. Don’t pay tithes to make the guilt go away. Instead, get your heart right with God.
If there is one thing we can take away from the Bible is that God did not want us to blindly follow His laws. Go back and read the Torah. Now think if you can actually fully and perfectly obey those laws. Nigh impossible, right? That was the point. The Torah is the standard of God which is perfection. When we realize that we cannot fully obey God’s laws, we turn to Him and cry out, “We CAN’T DO THIS WITHOUT YOU!”. God will respond, “That is all I wanted to hear.”
Guilt and shame is not removed because we above “it” all and we can go through life with a free pass. God’s grace is always there. But it boils down to the love we have for our Lord and our Lord for us. Line that up and then He will write His law upon your heart. In other words, you love Him and you choose to serve Him, everyday.
Hmmmmm. I have no ill feelings or aversions to the use of technology for the sake of the Kingdom, the movement toward authentic and “organic” Christianity, or anything of the sort.
But: Let’s please be careful to adhere what we know from scripture and use that as a basis for our idea of “church.” I’ve seen very little reference to them in the comments here.
Churches have always been “home base” for preaching the Gospel, discipling the believer, mobilizing a force of penetrating love into the community, and worshiping Him in spirit and in truth. A central local resource for spiritual grounding.
As long as scripture supports it, I would argue to take these emerging thoughts and trends to transform our churches into a much more powerful and effective force to bringing those outside His Kingdom into relationship with Him.
Couple of things…
1. Scripture should guide this discussion more than our feelings…Hebrews 10:24-25 (NASB)
“and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near.”
The word “assembling” refers back to Acts 2:42 when Christians assembled together to do 3 things…hear the Apostles teachings, Fellowship with each other, and break bread together.
As much as this discussion resonates with me…allowing me to get money and time back in my pocket…I am having difficulty getting past God’s Word…
2. And to Tom Becker…Jesus understands how, even after pouring one’s heart and soul into ministry, one gets stabbed (His was in the side and hands)….He was betrayed by one He chose to be in His circle of trust…
This realization that Christ experienced worse betrayal than me has helped me heal many times…He endured…as an imitator of Christ, so can I.
i get some of the tension this writer is feeling. but, three things come to mind:
1) as great as current technology is (and i appreciate it!), virtual interaction does not replace in-person interaction. cannot underestimate the power of (appropriate) touch.
2) i choose to serve at my local church because it is where my ability to serve others is maximized. it is where hurting people know that they can come…and many find there the relationship with Christ they likley never knew they wanted or needed. the local church -often – also is the only place people will hear the word of God taught.
3) the tithe is spoken of throughout Scripture; there is a measure of being “set apart” that comes from bringing our first offerings to God via a recognized faith community.
have fun in austin, anne! love the pics. :)
I am loving this discussion because it is close to my heart and my own process. I am a 4th generation pastor and have an incredible history with the “church”. However, I am coming more and more to believe that we are missing the point.
I think we need to ask some defining questions. For most of us we look for definitions to fit our experiences instead of looking at definitions and allowing them to lead us. When we do this with the bible it is called proof texting and we are good at it. This is the topic of my most recent blogs.
What is “Worship”? What is “church”? We define these based on what we do and are a part of vs. letting the definition define what we do and what we are a part of.
I think guilt is place by people and environments because we challenge their assumed definitions and they are uncomfortable and when we don’t fit the norm of our culture whether it be Christian or not we feel a certain way – right, wrong, or indifferent.
Let’s redefine church and allow what God and his word say to dictate whether we should be in a building each week, giving money, “leading worship” etc. And let’s not allow what people think and the guilt they produce to determine our behaviors.
“but why do those churches make other ways seem unacceptable?”
That’s the key phrase in this whole discussion.
Has a church(I believe many have) created an “us or them” mentality in it’s congregation? Or have people entrusted their faith to an organization instead of to the organism?
The church has done much wrong in making itself THE source for all service and giving, when in fact the Bible teaches very clearly that this must be happening outside the walls. People never came to the church for care. The church always went to the people. we need to be purposeful in this.
To clarify my last paragraph…
The “church” I refer to as the organization.
I really like the idea of Church being where tow or three are gathered, when my friend and I led a mens bible study that was a church to many of those guys it seems to work.
I agree that we should support out local Churches but I also see many Churches that aren’t growing or that aren’t reaching out. I feel that what ever we do should be done out of love not obligation I think that is what Jesus would want. The building is not the church and often the money we tithe can be used in other ways for other needs if we gave to a homeless person could that be our tithe?
I think that in our humanity things outside our “system” make us feel uncomfortable or threatened.
Think about any organized church and ask the big what if question – what if 80% of the people decided to give their money wherever they “felt God led them”? what would happen to us as an organization?
When our system is threatened we (in our humanity) have to heighten our control and pressure and guilt etc.
I think Darrell is right on.
I think if leaders(which I am one) in churches are teaching people that the only place to serve and give is within the walls. It is to protect the organization.
Should we be protecting?
Or should we be releasing?
I am super tired…so hopefully this will makes sense. Tom, You gotta do what you gotta do. In ministry…(in all areas of life), but in ministry, people are harsh and mean and cruel (all in the name of Christ) and I am so sorry you have been hurt. In our experience of full time missions we are all alone out here…and we are starved for community. We get support from America, sure in the way of emails, letters, and some packages. But I am convinced that there is no replacement for real human to human contact. Christ is our fill and we are readied by His lead and guide through prayer and scripture…but nothing replaces those who love Him along side of you. You just can’t sing with your friends on a computer or through a letter. I am not a needy person by nature…and being on the mission field with my husband has made us even more independent. But we are most at home when we are with like minded believers worshiping the One True God. Maybe that is because so many people here just don’t do that…I don’t know. But reading your words broke my heart because you have that available to you and for us, we have to wait for it…until teams come or that once a year that we visit the states. You have it at your finger tips. I am praying for you and your family. Not that you would change your mind…But that you would be rest assured and be hurt no more.
the only “protecting” or guarding should be the Word of God.
i have no problem with my lead pastor or the lead pastor of any local church teaching the members of that local faith community to tithe to the Church via their local church.
then, we should feel “released” to seek God on ways we can give beyond that 10%.
i think we need to be cautious about what we believe we get to choose IF we have chosen to be in a right relationship with God through Christ. check out Leviticus. yes, some of that is temporal and/or superceded by Jesus; but, it also is a good reminder that God knows best and we can find much of that best in Scripture.
great discussion!
My wife (Robin) says,
“One should not exclude the other. We should protect and release. If everybody is giving as God leads there should be enough resources to protect the organization and release people in other areas.”
She is not referring to protecting man’s system.
I am also of the opinion that many churches have to protect the money because they have not given people a big enough vision to give to. People want to give. Unfortunately much of the giving is to buildings and staff and that frankly is not all that motivating.
Ultimately the money is God’s. I do believe in tithing and believe that we should give to what we believe in. If I believe in the ministry of my local church why wouldn’t I want to support it. And if I don’t believe in it why am I there?
Kyle P.
Who is Bill Hybels? I know who he is but what I’m saying is, that’s it he’s just a man, not some idol that we need to take hook line and sinker, everything he says. I’m sorry, the church is not the hope of the world, Christ is. He is the hope of the world. Yes the church may be what He uses to bring others to Himself. I hope I’m not splitting hairs. I just have heard that line from Hybels one time too many. It comes from a prideful heart of pastors, leaders or whatever that think what they are doing is more important than anything else in Gods kingdom. And I fell for the lie for a while myself. Let’s just not forget that HE is the hope of the world.
It’s like another line I heard…people don’t have a problem with God/Christ, it’s His bride they don’t like. RED FLAG!!!! Check the gospels. Christ tells us not to be surprised that the world hates us, it hated Him first.
Wes, I really appreciate your comments. And you’re right. It hit me one day that the hurt my family and I was going through actually was an answer to a prayer. I had been praying that I would fellowship with Christ and His sufferings. WRONG!! Never should have done that. He answered. :) In no way does our sufferring come anywhere close to what He suffered but my family has been rejected by the people from our former fellowship and not because of sin but because we were convicted to abstain from the direction our “lead” pastor wanted the worship/arts dept. to go. And also we were betrayed by people we were close with. So we have gotten a taste of some of what Christ suffered. I was just tired of that Paryer of Jabez stuff that was going on in our church and just praying for blessing and increased territory. Anytime I suggested to our staff about someone writing a book and doing seminars about some of Pauls prayers about knowing the sufferings of Christ and so on, I would get this blank stare…..
I have to say I’m with Kyle P. – especially on the issue of the tithe. My personal feeling on the matter is that the tithe is to be made to the local church. If a person wants to give to other believers and causes they feel led to give to then fine, that’s called an offering and the offering is over and above the tithe.
Maybe, I’m just fortunate that my church’s vision is “Reaching those that have been turned off or indifferent to Christ and the Church and, with God’s help, getting them turned onto to Christ and make a difference through the Church.” The key in our vision is working through the local church to make a difference in the community and world. Just my 2 cents.
Kyle P. and Scott. I don’t see it in scripture where the storehouse actually means “The Church.” Especially if the church is Christians in or apart from a building. I don’t even see storehouse as being interpreted as a present day building. I’ve studied the tithe thing instead of just taking everyones word for it but I’m not a theologian so maybe I’m missing something.
I think another thing we’ve assumed for years is that inside a building is where people are to become saved. In Acts, the church is for the edification of believers. It’s not necessarily for unsaved people primarily. Aren’t we to use our gifts to build up the body and be taught by our pastors how to GO OUT and tell them about the gospel.
Scott how is your church reaching those people that have been turned off to Christ and the Church. Are you using high tech videos, rock bands, non-offensive sermons, removed the cross from the sanctuary so the unsaved people won’t be offended and that they’ll have a good time in church. I’m not really against any of those things but if they are for the purpose of watering down the gospel and entertaining people into the church, we have a problem. Who do we think we are that anything we do can make the message of the cross more palatable for the unsaved. The pure, unadulterated W.O.G. is what they need. Pride has gotten a lot of us to believe that we can do something to make the gospel more attractive to people. Of course we need to live it every day in front of those people we work with and play with and our families. That would help too. The Holy Spirit working in someones heart is the only thing that truly brings them to Him.
Tom
I agree that we are to GO OUT and tell them about the gospel. The problem is that most of the people that go to our churches and call themselves Christians are Biblically illiterate. They believe the Bible, they just don’t know what it says. No, historically the church has never been about a building but a community of believers. There is the collective church and the local church (sort of a microcosim of the larger, collective church) and I believe it is through the local church that the tithe is to be brought to effect the work of the collective church.
People come to the church with a what can you do for me mentality when the reality is that, as Christians at least and not those still searching, our mentality should be what we can do for others.
Specifically for those turned off what we’ve tried to do (13 years ago when we started) is find out why they were turned off and indifferent – why they hated church. In that respect, yes – we have rock music (the flock that rocks), casual dress, technology, and don’t pass an offering. That’s it from a cosmetic standpoint. Doctrinally, it’s Biblically sound and not a watered down feel good about yourself and everybody loves you message. It’s not uncommon to hear our pastor say (and I know it’s cliche now) that if what you hear on Sunday can’t be used on Monday then what’s the point of coming? Obviously this blog is no place to really spend chatting up my church (others don’t want to read that and it would take up way too much space) but if you ever make it to Oklahoma City, feel free to check us out and stop by Anne’s church too (we’re the same denomination but don’t tell anyone).
I blogged this, hope thats cool but i had some thoughts of my own that i was trying to process into a post in relation to a comment made to me yesterday so……..your post rescued my thinking!
http://www.supersimbo.net/2008/03/sunday-church-and-all-that.html
Anne,
Thank you for this blog….I recently went through the same thought process of guilt for not ‘volunteering’ at my church. I did what one had suggested…pray and meditate about it…maybe, the Holy Spirit is communicating something to you. I serve in all area’s of my life…I am a servant to my family..I am a servant at work but, at church I was an attendant. I started slow volunteering at the church. Eventually I was seeking more where I can help in the church. This servant hood has provided me with many rewards; I am meeting those who have just given their lives back to Christ, my kids see how one day they too can be a servant within the church, I am meeting so many wonderful people who are serving as well…there are just too many rewards to name them all!!! I also am aware that volunteering is not for everyone at all times…and that ’guilt’ may be coming from something that is not from God.
Tom, I think you are splitting hairs. Just becuase I quote Hybels doesn’t mean I have a little golden statue of him sitting on my desk. I realize he puts his pants on one leg at a time just like me. However, I do feel he is a man who is passionately chasing Christ, not his own personal fame or agenda, but Christ. For every Timothy, there was a Paul. I’m humble enough to listen to others who are in the trenches trying to bring Christ to the forefront of the world’s mind. Are you? I’m also intelligent enough to recognize spiritual pride and to discount it.
Well, have a look at Acts Chapter 2 – that was real community. Charity / Service I believe usually begins at home.
I’m an elder at a church in Middle England where we really reach out into the local community – and wider afield too. I love the fact that our church reaches out within its immediate radius, and has an eye on missions too. I’ve visited supported mission work in Swaziland and feel a real love for the folks there too. God as a place for us all – and thank God we’re all different so that needs can be met by our individual service.
Some are called to be pastors, some teachers etc, you get to know the drill. The fact is, you will be doing something I am sure I won’t be called to do.
Quite honestly where God gives you a passion, there’s usually permission. You need to be accountable to someone, and in a good sane church setting, the local pastor or leader should be overseeing your gifting. I would rather have the problem of people wanting to do things at church rather than no people wanting to do anything at all.
I play the drums at our church of 600 or so – the old chap who no one sees; Ken, gets in at 6.30am to set up the cups and tea, buys the milk and sets out the biscuits. I was really touched by this man’s humble loyal service and bought him some chocolate and a card a few weeks ago. His input into church life may seem so small and someties insignificant, but what a wonderful bloke – and loyal too. God can use us all.
Quite honestly service in church life can be punishing and you’ll often be moaned at. There’s an old saying – “no one treats its soldiers as badly as the Christian Army” They’re dead right – but we have to remember who our service is for, and that we all have our part to play.
Paul:
You are on target when you mention, “have a look at Acts Chapter 2 – that was real community. Charity / Service I believe usually begins at home”.
When I chose to move to the inner city, it was painful to see all the boarded up, abandoned homes while the homeless shuffled by as they looked for sellable trash. The blank, fixed stares, followed by the look of astonishment when I spoke, hurt as far down in my soul as hurt could go. I put a banner on my house that simply stated, “Living in Simple Faith” and showed a person walking out of a tunnel into the light.
The banner remained up for nearly three years before some perceptive person called on my city code violation. Now it will take up a wall in the community meeting area which we have created from the side of my duplex in which I do not live.
The church I was scheduled to visit this morning had a realtor’s lock on the door–just another foreclosure in the inner city. I have six churches within two blocks of my home. None have a congregation large enough to cover the utilities, let alone time or money resources needed to serve. Their hunger for your money is palpable.
Maybe you would call my little community meeting center a home church: we take in donations from the suburbs so there’s some food, clothing, furniture. We have a Monday night Bible Study and a Wednesday night kids’ group. We only occasionally have a preacher visit, but there is truly community here.
In the last three years our double block, appropriately named Churchman Ave., has reduced our drug houses from five to zero. We have a reduced number of abandoned homes at this time.
We never ask for money. My Social Security check and my little 12 hr-a-week job as the Faith-based Organizer manage to cover the basics and all our time is freed up to move about with smiles and messages of hope through Him.
It is all about love–God is Love!
I think when we look at what Scripture has to say, it is clear that our tithes are to be given to the church. This idea is both Biblical and traditional. Now if we want to go above and beyond (and I won’t say above 10% since 10% tithes are not Biblical) the tithe that we are called to give, then giving to our brother in addition to the church is not only requested but it is commanded.
Now, once we look past that, we see the simple fact that the church is better equipped to reach more last people in more places than the individual is. Again, this does not mean that there is not room for the individual in ministry, in fact, a ministry (as the church) is made up of numbers of individuals.
Another problem I have, and this might sound strange coming from a Protestant is that I believe the role of the church is one of equipping/discipling. This involves teaching. I believe that we need the counsel of those older and wiser in the faith than we are. I believe that the more of these people we have, the less likely we are to fall under the influence of a Svengali type figure. The best way for this to happen is in the local church. Many a heresy has begun with someone trying to interpret Scriptures without a proper background or support, and then leading others astray.
Finally almost everyone has brought up Hebrews/Acts. We were made for human contact. If it were not necessary, then solitary confinement would not be much of a punishment.
Just my two cents. But I don’t think the local church can be sacrificed for the virtual church, but I also think that the virtual church has abilities that are beyond even the local church. As long as the local church does not get lost in the shuffle then I see nothing wrong with the virtual church.
Always
Mike
There’s a little twist in the tithe discussion here I’d like to throw in.
The tithe in Jewish customs and the early church (acts) never went to pay for leaders or buildings.
I don’t think there is as much concern over whether the tithe actually goes to the local church. I think there is more concern over what it is being used for.
oops…sorry Anne. I didn’t read your post here until after I posted today on my blog (http://blog.aaronhavens.com/?p=74). Any hoot, I think my post today would go great with this post. Thanks!
I know the reason my former pastor would tell people that “the church is the hope of the world,” was as someone said earlier, to protect the organization, or should I say his organization. He literally scoffed at one of our dedicated volunteer staff members, going on trips to help victims of Hurricane Katrina and other types of missions trips because they weren’t sponsored by our church.
InWorship hit the nail. Jane, sounds like you live next door.
One can say “tithe belongs to the church” til the sky turns red, but that is not clear wisdom. For some, the very definition of “church” is in question. A “church” definition could range from any gathering of believers to an organized government in Italy. For all of us, the appropriate use of that tithe is in question. Do you feel you did your part if your tithe gets spent on a neon sign for travellers?
I do not blindly throw my tithe to the nearest of five churches because I need to dump money and time as soon as possible, like a complete fool.
I treat all of my giving like an spiritual investment. If the only church body I had to give to was a gasbag-powered megachurch with no social justice, no help for the poor, screwed up theology and a more blinking lights than open doors I wouldn’t feel the least bit guilty about locating an alternative.
There is a huge difference between conscience and guilt-trips.
Jason, good point about guilt trips vs conscience.
I wanted to add to some comments that were made about accountability being something we need and that being in community helps with having it. Let’s not forget that our pastors need accountability also. I admit when in leadership, that it’s not always something you want to hear. But being on staff of a very progressive/contemporary chruch recently I learned something very scary. A lot of pastors are coming into new churches and changing the by-laws (which is not always a bad idea) to set themselves up as the person making all the decisions. Now I can see this can make sense to a point. You don’t want the other extreme where a group of old deacons all from the same family basically run the church and use the pastor as their pawn. That’s no good. But the opposite is not good either. This idea of the lead pastor being the final decision maker and getting rid of all congregational votes and meetings was explained at the C3 conference in Janauary of 2005 at Fellowship Church in Grapevine TX this way…would you want to fly on a plane if the pilot needed to land the plane but he asked the people in coach how and when to land and to vote on it and present the result to the people in first class so they can again vote on it and then discuss it with the pilot for a final decision. If not why would you want your church run that way with a congregation voting on everything and then the board (executive) voting and finally talking to the pastor and deciding what to do. Behind most congregants backs and deacon boards alike, lead pastors are making all decisions. This may not be a hundred percent in all churches but it is probably more widespread than we think and it is all backed by books from Ed Young, Rick Warren, Bill Hybels and so on. Yes we should be able to trust the men we put in position as pastor but from my experience, we can’t always do that. They put themselves in position to make any decision they feel is right including major financial decisions and major decisions including hiring and firing which plays with families lives and futures. The consolation to me is that since churches are becoming less and less empowered to be in on the decision making process in decisions such as removing someone from the pulpit, GOD is still GOD and He can remove them when He sees fit.
InWorship wins a gold star.
The typical church spends 30 to 40 percent of its revenue on debt, and another 30 to 40 percent paying its staff. That loud sucking sound you hear is the sound of the American Christian’s tithes paying interest.
(Typed on a Blackberry… Excuse typos!)
InWorship – How do you explain the part of the OT tithe that went to support the Levites?
Jason Alexander – It is not up to us to judge what is done with the money. God will hold each believer accountable for his obedience in giving (and of course men for the obedience of their families in this situation). He will hold church leaders accountable for what happens to that money. It is not your place to with hold your money because you believe the church is not being a good steward. It is your responsibility to give and give cheerfully. If you truly have concerns, become involved in your church leadership.
Some of the posts here ring of people “worshiping” God by sitting at home on the couch Sunday and buying a new big screen TV.
But no one is forced to give. Those that are elect will give as an act of loving worship.
Mike
@Mike what exactly do you want me to explain. I would go over to the new post and catch up on some good stuff regarding the tithe. The Levites were paid, but not by THE 10%, by and extra 10%.
My point still stands. You just alluded to it yourself. What is done with the money is an issue today. Church leaders(which i am one) need to be responsible in how we spend the money. Church goers need to be responsible to give as much as they can. Not sitting back and thinking that 10% to an organization IS their giving. That is unbiblical. Paul speaks to the spirit of giving and that is what we should live by. Give everything! Give it all! It’s God’s money, its not ours. Be responsible stewards of it and care for those around you as God has blessed you to be able to care.
We need to stop teaching “tithe” and start teaching giving.
I have to say, that I could not agree with you in 100%, but it’s just my opinion, which could be wrong.