There appears to be a trend catching on in this postmodern clique of Gen Y’ers: Swearing.
I remember the first time I read a four-letter word on another “clog” (church blog). I thought it was so amazing and remember thinking,
“That is what it’s all about! If I only had the cajones to be that authentic – that real with people…fearlessly staring down our legalistic forefathers. And, if Donald Miller can say bastard in his book, well, heck – no – well, hell, I can say whatever I want to! Yeah! – no – Hell, yeah!”
Many of my real life friends and virtual cohorts have taken the liberty in their verbiage. After all, it’s not about rules. It’s about Jesus. And love. And relationships. Whether or not we use soft swear words isn’t life or death. Nobody’s losing their salvation. Those who are more “conservative” just need to let it go…
Right?
Maybe not…
I was reflecting back on the summer a couple years back when I got my eyebrow pierced. It was my seventh piercing. If you’re not familiar with the culture in Kansas, piercings aren’t exactly acceptable. In the back of my mind, I knew this – but I wanted to be different. I was working full time in student ministries, and I wanted to relate to some of the skater kids I worked with. And I wanted to present a non-conformist attitude to the Banana Republic wearing culture I lived in.
Ironically, more and more people were getting facial piercings and jumping on the same rebellious, body modification bandwagon I was on. It may have been nonconforming in intent, but the truth of the matter was I was just as guilty as conforming to that particular culture as the Johnson County soccer moms were to theirs.
In the same vein, there are those of us who intend to be authentic. To be real. To show the mess, the dirt, the rawness of our imperfect lives and need for grace. But I really have to wonder – how much of it is necessary? Do we really have to cuss or brag about our liberties to drink in moderation while expecting those with different viewpoints to get over it and realize we are “just being real?” Are we being real – or are we just being…edgy?
We walk around donning our “It’s about loving people” halos but seem to neglect – whether we like it or not – fundamental truths about living like Christ in all aspects, in addition to the clear command to love.
Are we really being honest when we do these things, or are we just conforming to an edgier fad of Christian living? More importantly, are we accurately representing Christ?
Comments
127 responses to “%*@%^!”
Hey Anne,
Responded to your comment on my vox. Very weird but wild.
Speaking of weird…. you’re not non-conformist till you’ve done this:
eeewww!
Sleep well,
nooc
p.s. I like things real. But for some reason I feel a little death in me (the bad kind) when I swear. And for some reason my heart hurts a little when I hear others do it. Among friends I can have a little smoke, drink a little drink and play a little Texas hold’em without qualms. I don’t know what it is about swearing.
speaking of death…
This was the post that got me really thinking about the concept.
Ignore if you already saw it. The pic and caption still make me smile every time I re-read it.
cheers,
Greg
p.s. How’s that opportunity with writing a book coming? I’m seriously considering compiling what we “unearth” in our cafe of the dead into a book or devotional.
Great post, its like I need to swear, drink beer and smoke cigars to show I am really saved not like those legalistic types, but ultimately it is a new form of legalism because again it is judging people’s spirituality according to human devised rules. They must be uptight old style evangelicals cause they don’t swear and ain’t got a tattoo. There is also Paul’s whole arguement about the weak and strong and limiting our freedom so we don’t offend other believers.
awesome comments, james – you nailed it on the head.
it’s all about the heart.
This too has been heavy on my heart. Why is it even necessary to swear at all in conversations? This may sound so lame…but in Jr. High my leader said to us once in a discussion about swearing Matthew 12:34 “…For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks.” Now I know that this is out of context, but I always envisioned shi- actually spewing out of my mouth whenever I said the word and since then it has pretty much cured me. That may sound simplistic, but really, I think if it is such a stumbling block for so many of us…it maybe shouldn’t be a big deal to re-evaluate.
Anne,
Interesting post! My comment is that people already see us for who we are because our heart causes us to act accordingly. Remember the old adage, “you are what you eat?” Well, that is true spiritually. Are we feeding the old man or the new man? Romans tells us to get rid of the old man.
We should be able to be real but can we be holy and be real?
“Without holiness no one will see the Lord.” In other words, we cannot be a witness without exhibiting holiness which comes from God. We have too many shallow christians already.
I don’t mean this to sound critical. It’s as much of a conviction of myself as anyone else, but hear me out.
I think it’s pretty simple. Swearing used to be “bad,” so all us “cool” Christians sweared to show how cool and different we were. Now swearing is becoming more accepted in Christian circles, so all us “cool” Christians will take an anti-swearing stand to show how cool and different we are.
The same thing happened with post-modernism, the emergent church, smoking, etc. I met Brian McLaren once, and he talked about how our protestant heritage has led us to this place where we are known by what we “protest” or disagree with. We are known for our stands of anti-gay marriage, anti-abortion, anti-smoking, anti-swearing, anti-everything. My question is, “What are we for?” I’d rather be known for that.
I’ve taken a different turn with this, I know, but my real problem is that Christians are way too into fad thinking. Some of us are who we are, regardless of what is popular. When everyone else jumps back and forth depending upon how the wind is blowing that day, it makes both sides seem silly.
I think coffee is bad for people, and yet churches give it away free every weekend. I think junk food is bad for people, and yet churches suppy cakes and pies and cookies. Is swearing “bad” for us? I’m not sure you could make that argument…and I’m almost positive I could make a better argument about coffee. Where do we draw the lines?
None of us are exactly who we were created to be – we all have our junk. But I drink, and swear, and play poker because it’s a reflection of who I am and how I was created. I respect people who aren’t like me, but I get exhausted when people constantly try to regulate our morality. Trust me, if swearing was my biggest problem, I’d be doing backflips right now. In other words, I feel like Christians (including me) are constantly talking about stuff that just doesn’t matter all that much. Swear or don’t swear, just be yourself either way.
I clearly think you are one of the most amazing people alive Anne…just throwing my two cents into the discussion.
One final thought, I promise:
Tony Campolo tells a story of going into a Bible College and saying to an auditorium full of students:
“There are millions of people dying every year around the world because of AIDS, and you guys don’t give a shit.”
And then he talks about how people start freaking out because he said the word shit.
So he follows it up with, “And what’s really scary is that you’re more concerned with the fact that I just said a curse word that the thought of millions of people dying around the world.”
I think perspective is a good thing. Can you tell people tell me I swear too much? :) Hehe…
Yes, I think that you are right Steve….and I too am frustrated with the fight to get out of the box of what some tell us is right and what is wrong….LEGALISM…but why are we so ready to take off the clothes that God first gave us? Did He not urge us to live within some sort of boundaries…or is it a free for all…all in the name of freedom under Christ?
Oh Steve, you are by far one of my favorite people in the world. I love the fact that we don’t always think alike, but can still live peacefully among blogdom. (although if I ever met you in person…) Haha.
I do agree with you that far too much time is spent debating and thinking on trivial matters such as swearing, and have heard the Tony C story before. He does have a point.
The thing I have to ask you about in your comment is this – you say, “But I drink, and swear, and play poker because it’s a reflection of who I am and how I was created.” And from what I know of you, from meeting Lori & Candyce, reading your blog, etc. is you clearly know who you are and you put it out there – that I respect.
My question is this – What about what John 3:30 says, “He must become greater; I must become less.” – in context, I think he was talking about receiving Christ and setting ourselves aside to receive “God’s spirit without limit” (v. 34)…and in Galatians 6, they are dealing with a similar cultural issue (circumcision)…
“Those who want to make a good impression outwardly are trying to compel you to be circumcised. The only reason they do this is to avoid being persecuted for the cross of Christ. Not even those who are circumcised obey the law, yet they want you to be circumcised that they may boast about your flesh. May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. 15Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is a new creation.” (v. 12-16)
I think some key points are:
-people think differently
-some do it to boast about it (Christian fads and trendiness)
-we are crucified to the world
-it doesn’t matter about the act of circumcision, but what counts is a new creation
I was a Christian 7 years ago, but I was cheating on my fiancee, illegally drinking, drinking far too much, not spending any time being made new…over the last few years (3 probably) I have really been trying to die to myself, and let more of Him work through me.
So by being who we are (which I am all for – trust me!!!)…do we run the risk of never changing?
Ahhh…this is the question, isn’t it? How do we become more like Christ without becoming clones? Without becoming robots? Without becoming boring copies of everyone else in the world? What kind of world would it be if we all thought alike, acted alike, spoke alike? Is that the goal of Christianity? Because often…and not from you Anne…but often I feel like there is this mold that most Christians want people to conform to. And we justify that by saying we all need to become more like Christ. But does that mean we become exactly like Jesus in every way, or does it mean we need to become more like him in the way we love others?
I think your example about 7 years ago is perfect – you were caught up in all those activities for the wrong reasons. Drinking, cursing, sex – it all can be done for the wrong reasons, and thus becomes unhealthy. But could there be a good reason to drink or swear? Hopefully all you married folks believe there is a healthy reason to have sex. Sex isn’t unhealthy – it’s how it plays itself out in our lives that makes it either healthy or unhealthy. Could the same be said of swearing, drinking, smoking, coffee, being sarcastic, using humor, etc?
So is it possible to become more like Christ and still curse? Drink? Smoke? I believe it is. Drinking no longer defines me, and that is freedom. I don’t have to curse to “fit in,” and that is freedom. As I accept and love who I am, I stop worrying about the details, because the details no longer define me.
I keep going back to this, but Jesus didn’t say people would know us by our stance on gay marriage, or our refusal to swear, or our lack of drinking. He said they would know us by our love. Some of the most loving people I know swear like sailors, and I long to become more like them.
In this way, I think many non-Christians in this world are more like Jesus than some Christians (including me right now) will ever hope to be. We’re all going to be in for a wake-up call one day.
It’s a matter of the heart. It always is with Jesus.
P.S. Bring it on Jackson! ;)
Wow I like you guys and I like this discussion. I want to throw my confused voice into the fray. This is a long one so skip over me if you like, but I wanted to share my thoughts – so here we go:
I want to say upfront, I am a recovering legalist who always wants mercy for me and justice for everyone else. I’ve spent the last four years consistently breaking down the patterns in my personality that lead to this, specifically in the last two years, and don’t see that battle coming to an end anytime soon.
I come from a bidenominational background – one side we’ll call the Sprinklers who are more accepting of the secular, and one we’ll call the Dunkers, a more fundamentalist culture. I am currently living in the Dunker culture but I crave for certain aspects of the Sprinkler culture and often herald those aspects. I love the people I call my church family but sometimes all the church clichés and Jesus-speak make me sick to my stomach. I walk the line pretty tight and I could easily be a Christian Pharisee if there were such a thing but I see little pockets of rebellion against this religious, legalistic mindset – deep in my soul – I’m no better a Christian than any other.
I make no apologies for who I am or what I believe when I meet new folks, however I also try not to be so rigid or irrelevant that I am no longer someone who is enjoyable to talk to. I am not willing to sacrifice some aspects of who I am, in an effort of change, simply to fit in with the spiritual culture I have adopted. I have found that authentic, heartfelt relationships are more meaningful and acceptable than the trite, simplified versions I find in most American churches. An example of one such relationship would be my close bond with The Reeser, another blogger. He and I can really let our hair down and not worry about sounding “Christian” with each other. There is an honesty and integrity in the friendship that keeps me comforted and encourages me to keep striving for the ultimate goal – Jesus.
I do not think we will be concerned with our cursing, or how we dress, or hide our piercings or tattoos – when we sit at the feet of our Lord. He accepted us at the moment of our salvation for who we were – the entire lot – every shred of disgusting filth – for we were already damned without Him and there is nothing we can show to Him or be to Him that will shock or disgust Him. In light of that, surely all things will become dim.
I am not saying I do so well at remembering this and sometimes I need to be reminded of it. One of my greatest fears is what it will be like to stand in front of all of heaven and to be judged at the great white throne – so it is still alive and well despite my battles. This little write up is as much a reminder to the Mattchews as it is a note of encouragement to you, the readers of flowerdust.net. It is my prayer that the followers of Christ in America can continually live in their freedom and embrace what our Savior gave us so that those who are seeking can find Him through our faith. Sometimes I might hear a curse word slip from my lips but I also know that I can speak truth, kindness and love of the Savior from the same lips. I might even use some colorful language on purpose to get an impact or catch someone’s attention.
I cannot judge what others say or do and I can only hold myself accountable. It is up to me what I say and how I attempt to relate – it is up to Christ to guide me through the day to day steps. I must continue to walk the fine line between “culturally relevant but spiritually sound”. A misstep in either direction can take away from the ultimate goal of making Christ known through my walk. That is why without Him I’m sunk, with or without cursing words, funky clothes, the latest trends and pierced eyebrows
I am honored that you stopped by my site and delighted at reading your post. Those thoughts needed to be put in words, and I am not sure I could have done it, but you have beautifully.
I think being real is over-rated. Ever since my hippie associations in my younger days, I have had some reservations about the necessity of talking about ‘being real’. I think what we really are when nobody is around is our real selves. For me it is short hair, a beard, casual clothes, flip-flops or sandals. Real is also when I put on long pants and shave and wear shoes and socks and tuck in my shirt to go to church. I am just as real then as I am at home in my underwear. What would not be real for me is getting tattooed or pierced or dying my hair orange or green (blue maybe) or wearing a wife-beater to church (the horror…). Whenever we make an uncomfortable stretch to try to align ourselves with a certain look or society, then we are being unreal and untrue to ourselves. IMHO.
RYC:
(choosing not to love)
I will agree that it may be possible to choose not to love, but can you stop loving once the line has been crossed?
L,r (Love,ron)
Oh yeah – Donald Miller. Have you read “To Own A Dragon”? It is available from his website now.
L,r
I came across your site from a friend of mine’s. I have to say, I disagree with you here. You’re obviously an intelligent person, so maybe you wouldn’t mind a little criticism…
There’s a fine line sometimes between being “different” and “rebellious.” Jesus was undoubtedly different, but he was certainly not rebellious. I’m not trying to sound all high and mighty, but it just sounds to me like you are all excited that your “liberated” from some cage that kept you from cussing, and it just comes across a little rebellious in nature.
And I have to say that, in my life, I have found that the respect you get from other people is INFINITELY greater if they see you operating from within any “cage,” they might put you in, than if you’re always walking the lines and testing your bounderies with them. It sucks yes, but it’s true. And I think that by denying that there are people out there who genuinely ARE offended by cuss words, will not eliminate the fact. That fact is, when you curse in front of them, their opinion of you goes down. I’m sorry, but it does. You can’t deny that.
Now, I’m not saying that you should ALWAYS care about what people think of you. Obviously, we Christians are called to stand up for our beliefs, but do you honestly think that cursing is some NOBLE CAUSE to be rediculed for?
I’m just saying, think about it. I’ve dealt with this before, and I used to have your EXACT same mentality, believe me.
I will say that what IS offensive and what’s NOT, is obviously completely relative to the person you’re talking to. Teenagers, especially close friends, most likely won’t mind a cuss word here and there, but most adults do. And I think that testing those boundaries is not something that exibits meekness and humility by any means.
Anyway, it’s an interesting debate, and I’m not arrogant enough to assume that I’m completely right, but that’s just the way I feel about it from my experience.
Dang. Now I am confused.
There was a rule of thumb someone I used to know had. She said, “I’m not offended by swearing. But as a Christian, I’m not going to do it, because I run the risk of offending someone else just because I can’t express myself more creatively.”
Russell – I hope I didn’t miscommunicate in my post above. I was not saying it’s okay to curse – merely presenting a trend that seems to be spreading like wildfire in our culture. I’ll have some more thoughts on this later tonight, but I’m enjoying the discussion taking place so far. Thanks so much for dropping by; I hope you’ll continue to do so!
Russell,
I think your thoughts are great, but I do have to disagree with one thing you said. As I read scripture, I see Jesus as absolutely being rebellious. That is what got him killed.
holy crap! this is great. Each person’s motives and boundaries are different, i think what we really need to be aware is the people we are speakint to. if it really offends them, or what you are doing is causing them to sin, then you need to refrain, or at least try to. we need to be sensitive to those around us. i think a “get over it” attitude on EITHER side in not the way to go, it’s about motives and a healthy balance. We are called to be authentic, but also to put others before ouselves.
love ya anne!
trace
Hmmm…
I think a lot of this discussion, here, hinges on context. I have noticed this trend, Anne, and I think it is in most cases pretty stupid. A lot of the people I hear cursing now would never have done so before. They cop out by saying, “I’m just being real.” But being real doesn’t necessarily mean being raw or crass or cussing or drinking or whatever. I’m all for being real, but I want to tell people to their “real” self not “real” Donald Miller.
On the flip side, I am known to let a word or two slip in certain company. It’s not terribly often, and I am conscious about who is around when these words are spoken. I can’t very well say to the mother of some 6 year old, “I’m not going to apologize, I’m just being real.” Nor, would I want to make the same statement to someone that is a bit more on the puritan side than I am in a church.
While I’m talking about being real in my speech, can we please rid ourselves of the useless Christian cliches? Please!!! I met some people a few weeks ago – all college students or that age – and I couldn’t have a normal conversation with them. It was rediculuous. I’ve been on military bases and heard the sailors cuss, and I’m not sure which was more repulsive. At times, I had to resort to asking functional questions… you know the ones that either have yes/no answers, or you ask them just to get the one piece of information that you need.
Sorry this is so long. I guess you can sum up my whole comment by saying “Be real, but don’t let it be a crutch.”
^forgot to put a sentence about the people I met a few weeks ago.
Many of them could not go more than two or three sentences without using “Christian talk.”
You seem to enjoy talking….
…Do you?
i think that the conversation about how swearing really fits into the life of a christian has less to do with the physical words you speak and more to do with the way words are used. i’m pretty convinced that walking by some dog business and saying “don’t step in that shit” doesn’t cause any spine shiverin in heaven but saying to someone else you’re a piece of crap makes heaven cry. the use of our language has more to do with our intent to build up or tear down. seems to me that when you hit your thumb with a hammer it doesn’t matter much which words you choose to speak (or think rather than speak for conservative mouths)….but it seems to me when we are dealing with people in our lives it becomes critical which words we choose for others. words don’t hold moral value in themselves….swear words as we know them change over time….depends where you live too….so it seems to me that what matters the most is how we choose to speak to others in all times of our lives….but even more important how we choose to react….if someone cuts you in line, are you a better person if you don’t tell them what you think of them….or are you a better person if you can allow that to happen without thinking those things of them…..life would be simpler if everyone had more grace for one another….we wouldn’t really care as much about all the ‘rules’ we got to follow….but we would care a lot more about how our actions and lives helped to build others up….i think God is happier with a foul mouthed individual who takes the time to help someone in need than the clean mouth guy whos got the rules right but passes by….whether he likes one or the other better if they both help….well i guess the juries out on that.
Well said, mccourt.
I’ve tried a couple of times to form an opinion of this and I can’t. Vulgar language is not a passionate point for me I guess. I don’t use it regularly in conversation but when I do, no other word will do. I use it on purpose and enunciate. People who say “it slipped” crack me up.
OTOH, there is not time this it is ok to direct vulgar language to another being. Oh and saying O My God…that is the worst. What a waste of His attention.
evidently I still can’t form an opinion. There is never a time it is ok to direct vulgar language to another person.
Gwen – your last part on “O my god” – that is actually what my next post is going to be about…thanks for the transition :)
My opinion….
If you don’t cuss, then don’t cuss. If you cuss, then cuss. The only censorship I’d put on it is to be respectfuly and loving towards those around you. Know your audience if you are going to use colorful language. And if you aren’t sure of your audience then err on the side of love and respect. And if you are the hearer of someone cursing be loving and respectful of them and don’t take it personaly or use it as a measure of their christianity.
Afterall…we are to be known for our love (and I think respect is included in that) of others not whether we cuss or don’t cuss.
Just my opinion!
I really do think we need to hear both Paul and Jesus on this issue. Jesus does say that some words “racca” are out of bounds for disciples, now I know that he is talking about inward attitudes that are expressed by these outward words, but it does include words. He gives a concrete example from his culture of a word which couldn’t be used without making other people feel diminished and insulted. Every culture has such words, I can think of them.
Paul extends this, he says that we are not do (and say?) things that can seriously offend our “weaker” brothers and sisters in Christ. Again this is a fine line, I know some ‘christians” who are offended by just about everything. Nevertheless, if we are using language to deliberately “offend” others or show how ‘liberated” we are, I do think the NT says we should be looking at our motives.
I fall down on this all the time, but my goal is to build others up by what I say (1 Cor 12-14) If I could do that and swear I would, I suspect I personally can’t, so I don’t?
There is also something here a bit like an alcoholic getting a taste for drink again. Swearing was VERY much part of my previous life, it was part of a lifestyle that I turned my back on (repentance) I don’t think I can pick and choose aspects of that lifestyle that are now OK. Do I start getting drunk again? Do I start treating women as objects created for my pleasure? This is my personal demon, I worry that going soft on one aspect of my former lifestyle might be a slipperly slope to going back to the whole thing.
I say that is my personal worry but I have been a pastor long enough to know it does happen!
First, your comments and thoughtfulness in replying to this topic have been overwhelming (in a good way!) Mostly, I want to thank you for being respectful in your discussion.
I agree a lot with James’ last comment in what freedom in Christ means. Christian liberty doesn’t give us permission to do whatever we want to do, when we want to do it, but instead affords us the opportunity to CHOOSE to live like Christ in our daily actions.
I think back to in John 3 “A man can receive only what is given him from heaven.” And that includes the freedom we have in Christ we receive when we believe. In Colossians 3, it says when we receive our new life, HE is our life….“And that means killing off everything connected with that way of death: sexual promiscuity, impurity, lust, doing whatever you feel like whenever you feel like it, and grabbing whatever attracts your fancy. That’s a life shaped by things and feelings instead of by God. It’s because of this kind of thing that God is about to explode in anger. It wasn’t long ago that you were doing all that stuff and not knowing any better. But you know better now, so make sure it’s all gone for good: bad temper, irritability, meanness, profanity, dirty talk. (v 5-8).
So..what IS dirty talk? Who defines it? Conservative Christians? I know there is the argument out there that in some cultures, one word is offensive and another one isn’t. I think we are expected to use common sense here instead of playing the excuse card. I think back to George Carlin’s “7 words you can’t say on TV” skit – obviously he knows what the words are, our MPAA rating systems knows what those words are, and if it’s not a word you would use to your mother/grandmother/5 year old nephew/girlfriend’s dad – you know what’s acceptable in our culture and what isn’t – regardless of how many people use the words and how it seems acceptable.
I don’t see it about being legalistic. There is no moral code written, “thou shall not say four-letter words” but more about common sense. Are these words offensive to most? Our culture says yes. So are we free to say them? Yes, we are. Should we? I guess that’s where conviction from the Holy Spirit, seeking counsel from others and using wisdom and common sense comes in.
Psalm 141:3 – Post a guard at my mouth, GOD, set a watch at the door of my lips.
Language is language, and words are words. They’re tools to communicate. It’s the context, thought, or idea that matters.
To demonstrate, it’s acceptable to say “the female doberman is a bitch” and probably even “God is bitchin’”, but not “That cashier was a real bitch!”.
The whole charade is ridiculous as George Carlin eloquently pointed out in his famous monologue (also here).
The people who are offended by the words are usually those who aren’t preceptive enough to grasp the message.
i agree with what you say jaydee but why would someone knowingly wnat to offend another. aren’t we called to be set apart? how will anyone know we’re different as believers if we’re using words a majority of the people consider profane?
PETA members are offended when I eat a steak, but I’m not about to stop eating steak.
I don’t believe that one should purposely go out of their way to offend people, but the reality is you can’t “not offend” everyone. There’s always going to be someone who’s offended by something you’ve said, done, or thought.
In regards to being different as believers, I think the best message we can convey to non-believers is not that we’re different, but that we’re the same. We’re just like them. We have the same problems and concerns and challenges that they have. Becoming a Christian doesn’t set you apart on some pedastal above all the “non-believers”.
Finally, if the majority of people considered Christianity to be “profane” would that make you stop believing, lest you offend them?
Something I was just noticing is that most people who are giving the general “vote” of “it doesn’t really matter” …not that I am needing scripture to prove your point, but I was wondering if some of you might be able to provide some scripture to how you find your own personal convictions – instead of just saying “this is what i believe’ – can you explain further why you believe that (assuming that you believe the bible is the ultimate authority on everything past, present and future…)
Thanks, lovelies.
The fact that we have to talk about it is annoying. I am who I am. I’m striving to have a meaningful relationship with Christ and that is generally all I’m concerned about. Sometimes I get caught up in all the discussion about what we can and can’t do with our freedoms in Christ and I kind of get sick to my stomach after a while. This is the thing… If you’re doing stuff to get attention or fight some battle by getting tatted, pierced, drinking, or cussing then you’re wrong. It’s plain and simple. It has to do with the motive. It’s the heart of the matter. I know plenty of Christians that cuss. Some are from other cultures where saying fuck is totally acceptable. They grew up in a place where that particular word was not offensive to people. I work with a guy that when he’s in the car and someone cuts him off…look out! He get’s so pissed. Now, the only words that come out of his mouth are stuff like stupid and jerk. Does that make it okay? He’s still angry and I don’t know about you but my bible says to be slow to anger and slow to speak. See, the issue is the heart not the word or anything else. Check you’re heart, be you, don’t boast, and strive after a relationship with Christ. Everything else should take care of itself. Sounds pretty simple huh? It is.
My overall guide in behaviour is a desire to be like Jesus, this isnt some simplistic WWJD thing, I think I am pretty serious about taking into culture and theological factors. Its the direction that is important to me, my prime motivation is I want to be like Jesus. I think this is a pretty good guide in lif’s various situations and with my habits and behaviour.
So did Jesus use strong language?
Yes in a sense he did. He called people hypocrites, nests of vipers and whitewashed tombs. Now some of those phrases have probably lost some power down the years and across cultures, but believe me they prove Jesus wasn’t afraid to offend people with his words.
But he didn’t offend people for the sake of it, or to make himself look cool, or because it was socially acceptable or not socially acceptable. He only used this kind of language when the occasion and issue was so important that it warranted it. When the nature of the Kingdom of God was at stake.
To my knowledge, as recorded in the Gospels, we don’t have any contemporary swear words coming from Jesus lips. So he doesn’t tell the Pharisees to F___ Off in Aramaic. He doesn’t let a Hebrew expletive slip when they are whipping him. He doesn’t call any of the soldiers nailing him to the cross B_________Ds in Greek. He never swears at the disciples when they frustrate the hell (not a swear word where I come from) out of him for the umpteenth time.
So my position, which I have come to and don’t generalise for all and sundry, is that I can’t think of a situation when it would right for me to utter a few of my culture’s choicest words.
I do believe we are to be different from the unbelieving world, Jesus use of the metaphors of salt and light to describe the church certainly infer contrast. But the difference is not just oddity, or styles of clothing. Fundamentally, its how we treat people and I think the words we use, about others and to others is a big part of how we treat them, so there should be a difference in the way we speak.
I would say that back stabbling and gossiping is probably a bigger problem in relation to this than swearing, but two wrongs don’t make a right!
Swearing in Christian circles? This brings to mind how easily we accept what goes on in the ‘world’ into our lives and then adopt it as something acceptable. See how quietly the enemy softens our stance firston our language, “Well it’s OK if I say da– because others do…” What is next? (Our dress? Have you been to our church lately and seen what is being worn? I am not talking about ratty clothing, but more often than not it’s revealing clothing. I am no prode, but church is not the place to dress like you are looking for a date. But I digress…)
Bit by bit satan whispers into our ears and tells us it’s ok, no one minds, it’s just a word, a man-made word, it wasn’t even a word when Christ was alive, why should it matter? We can be in the world, we don’t have to be of it. I know when I am at work, then my language can become influenced by those who surround me. When I am at home with family, church or with parents, then I make the effort to keep it clean, why not do it all the time? Because I am with other people and I let my guard down and don’t consciuosly want to be labelled or singled out, I want to be accepted. Sad but true. Oh yeah, I am listening to Metallica now too. How appropriate.
Apparently I cannot spell either…prude, not prode…
The most degrading, hurtful words said to me have not been curse words. If that is our gauge, then we’ll have to eliminate half the English language. People can hurt me with a very innocent word and make me laugh by dropping the f-bomb. So which word is better?
I also really like jaydee’s point about PETA. We’re always to offend someone. We’re always going to make someone stumble. I’m not saying we all just say, “screw it, I might as well do what I want,” but I don’t think we can use “offending people” as the measuring stick to whether something is appropriate or not.
JESUS OFFENDED ALMOST EVERYONE!
Have we all lost sight of that?
Yeah, but I don’t think he would have used the f-bomb just to offend people.
I think that statement in itself is funny. F-BOMB. f-bomb. fbomb. Yup….it’s fabulas.
It’s difficult when we cannot control what offends another. If I am out to dinner with a group of vegans, I eat vegan. It’s respectful. If I am dining with someone who has an issue with alcohol, I wouldn’t dream of drinking a glass of wine. However, if I’m not aware of someone’s level of tolerance and I, for example, say someone was bitching about something and they get offended, they need to extend me grace the first time with an explanation that it’s offensive and then I am responsible after that. For example, although I don’t use vulgar language, I don’t even call it cursing. Cursing is saying God or any form of the trinity in blaspheme to me. The rest of it is just vulgar and debase to me. To someone else it may be a big deal.
Steve, I am not sure that Jesus did offended almost everyone. In fact he chose not to use the very offensive language of his culture to describe those who were not ‘in” the right religous groupings. As I pointed out, to the best of our knowledge neither did he drop the odd Aramaic F word.
The strongest word we have from Jesus is Racca and he condemns both its use and the attitude behind it.
What is important is why Jesus offended people. It was always connected to the Kingdom of God not just for the sake of it or by accidental use of swear words. He offended people who were contradicting the kingdom’s values or restricting who they thought should be able to enter it.
I agree that the most hurtful words are not swear words necessarily but that doesn’t mean the words we use don’t matter.
Paul clearly says they do Ephesians 4:29 “Don’t use foul or abusive language. Let everything you say be good and helpful, so that your words will be an encouragement to those who hear them.” The Greek word here for unwholesome is the same as the one Jesus uses to talk about the inability for “bad” tree to produce good fruit, Paul may be deliberately echoing Jesus. What’s on our lips expresses to some degree what is on our heart.
What’s important is that Paul clearly says elsewhere the nasty, gossipy, slanderous, hurtful language is out for Christians. But he does add here that there is a whole class of words “unwholesome and abusive” that are out for believers too because however we use them, they have the potential to discourage rather than encourage our hearers.
In every culture believers have to decide what words belong to the “unwholesome and abusive” category and not use them.
James, you raise a really good point.
Yes, we will always offend people…..but do we do it for the Kingdom, or out of apathy?
“I know I’m going to offend someone, so who cares?”
Can cuss words in our culture be used to bring people to the throne?
When your vegan friends go to dinner with you, why don’t they eat meat out of respect to you?
I think it’s disrespectful that there are starving children all over the world who would kill for a steak, and we Americans thumb our nose at it because it’s “unhealthy” or “unfair” to animals. It offends me.
Like Chris Rock used to say, “You’ll never find a vegetarian in Ethiopia.”
My point: who gets to judge what is offensive?
It was just an illustration Steve, it’s a respect issue for me is my point. We can’t keep from offending people when we don’t know what offends them to being with.
I know that this is a tangent…sorry…When I read and re-read all of these posts…and then Gwen’s…I guess that I just “assume” that she is a Christian and therefore honoring those she is eating dinner with. She is respecting those around her and maintaining her witness. I did not read that the Vegans forced her to only eat veggies…I bet that they adore her because they know that she normally eats meat…but refrains around them. What a testimony….whether they are believers or not. (Sorry there is a lot of Christian vocab in there).. But it just seems that throughout this whole 50 person debate…some are forgetting to die to themselves. Isn’t that the point anyway?
Steve, my understanding of Paul’s weak and strong argument is that if I was with vegans and my eating meat offended them I should refrain and I would. I have preached using the King Jimmy Bible, wore suits and ties alll because I I didn’t want to offend my weaker brothers.
Also Steve I am not sure about the link between starvation in Africa and swearing. On that logic we shouldn’t bother about adultery because there are starving children in Africa.
I’d like to hear your view on Eph 4:29, to me that is the crucial passage
Steve – I think who “judges” what is offensive is the culture in which you live. Eating cats over here is offensive. Burping out loud is offensive…because that is what the culture we are raised in has taught us. I agree with Gwen that it is partially a respect issue. Would I go to the middle east wearing even modest shorts and a modest sleeveless blouse? No way-as that would be offensive to thier culture.
If we as Christ followers are called to be a light, I would (try) to die to myself and inconvenience myself as much as possible so that others wouldn’t be distracted or confused by my actions. (Please note I said TRY)
Jaydee, as much as we are the same as everyone else in the regard of our humanness, we ARE different. There are a billion verses (yes, I’m exaggerating) to support the fact that believers have the Holy Spirit with them, people who don’t believe don’t. We are made new. We are able to “understand the light” as one verse conveys. That does not make us any better or set higher than anyone else, but it is different.
The Bible doesn’t record Jesus saying he needs to go to the bathroom either, but that doesn’t mean he didn’t say it.
My point is not that Jesus cursed or would curse, my point is that Jesus would not want Christians to get hung up on the words but focus on the message.
Hi Anne,
Just letting you know I dropped by. Great discussion, I read through it all. At this point I have nothing new to add. Let’s just say I’m not looking forward to the day when I have a conversation with my daughter about WHY some words are bad and WHAT some words actually mean. For now she’s fine with just knowing some words are bad because they a mean.
You know what’s funny, she (6) thinks “What the…” is a curse word. She doesn’t know what comes next and I’m not exactly sure where she picked it up but I did call her on her attitude when she says that.
Well, that’s all for now.
what would Jesus say if he stubbed his little toe…i mean like really hit it hard….on a sharp corner….
i also think that it means something a little different than our churches have taught to be ‘different’ or ‘separate’ from the world….james 1:27…..(paraphrased)….here’s the kind of religion that is acceptable to God….take care of the widows….and the orphans….AND DON’T BE CORRUPTED BY THE WORLD
this doesn’t have much to do with shutting off the bad t.v. shows or avoiding all the bad things in the world as much as it means to learn what it means to work your way downward in life….become ‘more dead’….be willing to give up your own rights….your own comforts….to serve the needs of the broken in the world. the corruption of the world is the message to work your way up….in status / recognition / money / greed / etc etc
if we lived our lives with the broken and needy (truly needy) people of the world and spent our lives trying to help them….i don’t think they would really care what words we use if we were giving the worth / value / food / home / health / etc that they need. somehow the conversation about swearing suddenly becomes much more important when we get back in our s.u.v.’s and suburban churches.
I do agree that the widows, homeless, etc. don’t care what words we use when we are meeting their needs, even so, I do think God still cares – otherwise, there would not be so many verses speaking of using wisdom and striving for purity in our words, and extreme consequences when we don’t.
This next comment isn’t directed at anybody personally, but towards a train of thought – We are not God’s gift to the needy – Christ is – and it is our responsibility to strive to represent him in the most holy and pure manner.
I was actually thinking about this the other day when asked how I could be a light to the world. My main answer was basically show that I’m a Christian in my life and make that something that is obviously different and desirable. I think one of the easiest things to set myself apart from the rest of my college friends is by watching what I say. Like you said, it’s something that the “Gen-Yers” have absolutely no problem doing and around U of M, it seems like something so normal to hear a bunch of people swearing. It’s hard for me to not pick up on it, as well, and I slip sometimes unfortunately. But the biggest thing is that when I do slip, my non-Christian friends think that it’s really weird, which tells me that they do notice that I don’t swear. It’s just one way that I’ve decided to be start being a light, or at least show that I’m different and not ‘of this world.’
I have a friend that has been a christian for a about 2 years, no one has ever told her that christians don’t say certain words and so she still says them. She’s an educated person so she has always used discretion when using colorful language and it’s never been “an every other word” issue, and she continues to do so.
So that has made me wonder? Who told us that christians don’t use certain words? Is it a group of non-believers that got to pick which words were curse words and which weren’t? Was it our puritanical ancestors?
Just an observation….I really think in light of all the other things in my life that I deal with this is not that important. And I don’t think God falls off His thrown when I say “damnit” if I’m upset, but I do think He hates it if I damn another person. Sometimes no other word fits. Those who don’t use real curse words simply replace them with more socially acceptable words such as “crap”, “darn”, “freakin’”, “flippin’”…etc…is that really any better?
“My point is not that Jesus cursed or would curse, my point is that Jesus would not want Christians to get hung up on the words but focus on the message”
… mmm Sorry this idea that our words and the message behind them can somehow be different would be totally alien to Jesus, that kind of divorce between what we say and what we mean is the product of Greek philosophy filtered through the enlightenment. Jewish people believed in the power of words, of and in themselves, God’s Word created the world, that’s why Jews never used the name Yahweh, whatever their meaning would be when they used it. Hebrews believed words had power, Rhema. So if Jesus had heard you let off the Aramiac equivalent of the F word and you had said, “oh its just a word, I don’t mean to be offensive,” he would have looked back in unbelief. I think it is also why Jesus picked out certain words, Racca, for instance and said don’t use this word, now in his culture he didn’t have to say and the attitude behind it, because that was assumed.
Not sure about Jesus going to the toilet, the evidence from absence and the logic that means he could have used foul language. The Gospels clearly say that Jesus got tired and ate, ie he was fully human so its pretty clear he went to the toilet. To my way of thinking offensive language stems from the Fall, and the Gospels are equally clear that Jesus didn’t sin. You do need to go to the toilet to be fully human, you don’t need to swear.
“what would Jesus say if he stubbed his little toe…i mean like really hit it hard….on a sharp corner….” We aren’t told but we are told that when they beat him within an inch of his life and then drove spikes into his arms and ankles and left him to die, unlike what we know of other crucifixions, he didn’t swear and urinate on people, he forgave them. I think if the odd F word had come naturally to Jesus, we would have heard it during the passion narratives of the Gospel.
Come to think on it, Stephen didn’t let off a string of F’s when they stoned him either
Neither did Paul when he was beaten or in his letters when certain churches, like Galatia and Corinth, were driving him mad!
I am pretty up on Early Church history and I can’t remember ever reading of an instance when some Christian being fed to the lions told the Romans to FO.
When Christians were from both sides were burning each other during the Reformation (clearly wrong!) I haven’t ever read of a tirade of foul language coming out of the smoke.
I have spoken to some Chinese Christians about how they react when they arrested and imprisoned. Can’t remember one of them saying they told the police where to go in not so polite language.
Maybe swearing doesn’t (shouldn’t) come naturally for Christians.
james….i like your point….about jesus choice of attitude even when he was being beaten to an inch of his life and killed….i absolutely agree. i think that what i was trying to picture was Jesus on a very ordinary day….say he was working his carpentry on his 5th day on a job…he has a lot of familiarity with the family he was working for….and he’s walking across the room to pick up one of his tools and SMACK….stubs his toe hard. does it taint your picture of him if he lets out a “‘shit that hurts” while the people around him get a good chuckle about it all.
there is a difference to me about the attitude between that and hanging from the cross and telling others to FO or urinate on them….but that is exaclty how i feel about this whole conversation not being about words and being about attitude…if we truly value other people in our attitude we will not speak in a way that we deliberately offend them….but if i’m golfing with a few buddies and know them very well…whether i say crap or shit after a bad shot doesn’t really seem to me to be any different at all
James,
My response to Eph 4:29…
The whole point is to set ourselves apart. I do not curse like I used to. I do not curse like many of my non-Christian friends do. I do sometimes curse out of anger or to irritate other people, and I feel that is out of the wrong motives.
But what if my friend pursues his dreams and tries painting for the first time; what if he is nervous about the painting and is insecure about his work; what if he shows me his work and his self-esteem is so fragile (pronounced fra-ge-lay) that he is THIS close to giving up on his dream.
And I see his painting and I say, “Holy sh*t Joe, that is f*cking awesome!” Do you think that would offend him and cause him to stumble or “build him up according to his needs?”
My point in these types of discussions will always be this: Our faith is not black and white; it is often murky; and the idea of coming up with hard and fast rules on how Christians should live life seems silly. 1 Corinthians 10:
“31So eat your meals heartily, not worrying about what others say about you–you’re eating to God’s glory, after all, not to please them. As a matter of fact, do everything that way, heartily and freely to God’s glory. 32At the same time, don’t be callous in your exercise of freedom, thoughtlessly stepping on the toes of those who aren’t as free as you are. 33I try my best to be considerate of everyone’s feelings in all these matters; I hope you will be, too.”
As many people have said already, it’s always the heart behind the message. Sometimes we have to work that out between us and God, and not find all the answers in a book.
“Sometimes we have to work that out between us and God, and not find all the answers in a book.”
steve – Aren’t they one in the same?
I was just reading thru this and I had to laugh – I wonder how long this discussion would have taken if we were all sitting over a cup of joe in person talking…rather than across miles and via typing.
:)
steve….i like you.
anne….the problem is that if we were sitting having coffee….most people wouldn’t say the “swear words” that they write cause then they would feel guilty :-)
cheers
Anne,
Loved the thread – and I sent someone your way. I hope Caroline visits you again, because you are just the type of person I think she would like to have as a “big sister” type.
I asked her and her sister last year if they would be interested in doing some type of video/documentary on being a pastor’s kid. Maybe talk about what it’s been like and get interviews from lots of others. Could you imagine how great it would be if we would let all the PK’s in this country speak openly about the struggles, fears, etc?
Anyway, about the language. Mike has told me for years – it’s only a word. And I use some of those words far more frequently since I’ve been working in the corporate world. In fact, my daughters could have all of their tuition paid on the money I owe them for swearing around them. But I have a hard time using them regularly because I still view them as being, at least in American culture, vulgar.
Someone made the point that words have different levels of vulgarity depending upon the culture. I remember one of my friends who had lived in England telling me a story. She was surprised at the number of times she heard the word damn when she moved there from the states. One day on the playground, she noticed a boy who had been hit in the face. She said – look at the boy’s bloody nose. She was sent to the office for swearing.
mccourt – if we were sitting and having coffee, I’d say them….
Beth, what is swearing in America and what is swearing in the UK is a whole big subject. I vividly remember being at a large service when I was you ng and an American singer saying she was glad to be standing because she had been sitting on her fanny on the plane for hours. People got up and walked out, because in the UK fanny is a REALLY vulgar word for female gentials!
Minefield! I have a list of word I talk to visiting American groups about if they are going to take part in services. I usually ask Americans if they are called Randy to use their middle name if there are teenagers around otherwise it just gets to silly.
Teenagers always go and ask them if they are “really randy?”
Randy = sexually excited
Oh, I can’t wait for our trip to Scotland!
Anne, just don’t use the F word, either of them !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Let me start by saying, I don’t live in the same world you do as I don’t attend church and rarely spend time with christians. I didn’t realize this would be such a topic of conversation.
I’m amazed that there are cultural circles where it could be cool to use certain ‘naughty’ words. I’d expect that behavior out of children or teens but from the conversation I gather this is adults we’re talking about – again, blown away that it can make someone cool or ‘relevant’ as perceived by the individual or hearers.
The words defined as inappropriate in 21st century American English are not based upon Biblical precedence. The scriptures referenced in these comments speak very generically to (1) the words of our mouth, (2) laying aside sinful behaviors to follow after Christ or (3) care in regards to fellow brother and sisters in Christ. Only one reference calls out a specific ‘word’ as inappropriate – ‘raca’.
What about Raca
Even when Jesus calls out a specific word ‘Raca’ the point He was making is missed here. Jesus is speaking to the people on the dichotomy of following rules vs. the condition of the heart. He equates murder with being angry with someone or calling someone ‘You fool!’ A murderer ‘will be subject to judgement’ and someone who says ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.
Interestingly enough the word ‘Raca’ makes someone answerable to the Sanhedrin (the religious people of the day) NOT to God or eternal judgement.
A deduction can be made that certain words were deemed inappropriate. So inappropriate that you could be subject to the Sanhedrin if you said them.
Has the church adopted a list of words that subject people to punitive church judgement if they are said? Have the religious people of the day become like the Pharisees by adding rules and expectations on to people in an effort to be holy? Expectations and rules that are loosely tied to scripture but not explicitly called out?
Why can people aggressively argue for the use or disuse of words, not defined in scripture while we carelessly miss the core of Jesus’ message of heart conditions?
Stumbling blocks to others?
Several have cited the avoidance of certain words in deference to fellow brothers and sisters in Christ.
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I encourage everyone to go read steve (BreathFire)’s comment on this topic.
James, are there people named Fanny over there? I know a few old ladies with that name here!
It was a Victorian female name, I don’t know if that is where the vulgar sense came from
Let me precede this statement with the following disclaimers:
1. I havent read anyone else’s comments
2. i like swearing
3. im sitting at a conference i just got done playing at, so my attention and spelling may be a bit off.
There are bigger fish to fry then worrying about who says curse words. I still think, and always will, that taking the Lord’s name in vein is wrong. I put swearing in the same category as drinking beer, or smoking cigarettes, Basicially everything that legalistic people would shit their pants about. Let’s, as Christians, find a better battle to fight than getting after other Christians for doing “worldly stuff.” How bout feeding the poor, or praying for the sick, both physical and spiritual. How bout worshipping the Lord with all of your heart, and loving EVERYONE. Not the people who falll into our little bubble of prople who we can love. EVERYONE, lets just open up to the first 4 books of the Bible and read about the guy who did all that stuff. Lets try to be like Jesus, not the Pharasises.
Jesus
loved people, no matter
what they did
Pharasises
scorned people no matter
what they did
who are we trying to be as Christians? They guy we allegedly worship and try to be like. or the bastards that killed him?
It’s like we are all in middle school again and experimenting with cuss words. Why is it necessary to show that it’s possible to love Jesus and cuss. I thought the point of being a Christian was to be different from the world. Now, it seems that is no difference, other than church attendance. We can cuss, drink and smoke with the best of them and it gets us nowhere. And I’m also sick of hearing, “It’s about the heart,” because it isn’t. It’s about living a life that’s different from everyone else. How do non-Christians react to our modest indecretions? Are they longing to be like us or are they wondering why we act exactly like them?
Brandon …. You have been frank. Let me be equally frank, I am far from being a legalist but I have no idea why any Christian would say… “i like swearing”
That seems infantile to me. And why does it have to be a choice between personal and social holiness? As far I understand the NT and Jesus example calls for both.
Let’s talk about being like Jesus.
Jesus simply didn’t go round calling the people who were going to crucify him “bastards”
He didn’t tell the Pharisees when he got into a dispute with them to FO.
I don’t find Paul using that language when he is unjustly beaten and imprisoned, he doesn’t sit in the prison cell shouting that the jailer is a BASTARD, he sings songs which glorify God, which may just have been why the jailer was open to his message later.
Stephen didn’t curse out the people who were stoning him, maybe he didn’t like swearing.
What are the role of swear words in a society, to shock and give offence. Now if I want to shock and give offence I want it to be about the Kingdom of God or the Cross, I want people to find offence in the Gospel not in my language.
I find the lets swear and show we are not legalists and attitude which is equally legalistic because it is judging people according to standards of spirituality devised by humans. Like it or not according to the NT (Eph 4:29) what I say and how I say it is part of spirituality.
I think Nelly is right it is about the heart, but the NT is equally clear that the tongue expresses what is on the heart. So if we like to use language that our culture finds deliberately offensive we need to examine it.
Brandon – I couldn’t agree more with you that we shouldn’t judge or be legalistic looking at people who choose to swear. And I also agree that we should love people regardless of who they are or what they do, just as Christ did.
I do, however, think (at least from what you said in your comment, and please do forgive me if I am mistaken), but your view of Jesus is a little one-sided. You see the side that loved unconditionally – but what about the side where he lived a holy and blameless life? A pure and perfect life?
Not only are we called to love others unconditionally, as you stated, but also to be like Christ in all aspects of who he was – not just the loving side.
Anyone have thoughts or context on what Jesus meant in these verses in Matthew?
Matthew 15:16-20
Jesus replied, “You too? Are you being willfully stupid? Don’t you know that anything that is swallowed works its way through the intestines and is finally defecated? But what comes out of the mouth gets its start in the heart. It’s from the heart that we vomit up evil arguments, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, lies, and cussing. That’s what pollutes.
I don’t mean this to be offensive. And I don’t mean this to sound cooler than everyone else. I only mean it as a “fact-finding” question. But do any of you actually spend a majority of your time with non-Christians?
I used to work in a mega-church, and I know that when you do, 90% of your time (if not more) is spent around other Christians. And if you do interact with a non-Christian, it’s only in passing in a grocery store or at the bank.
Again, this isn’t to sound “cool” or “better-than,” but I teach at a large public University. I encounter hundreds of new non-Christians every three months, and build relationships with many of them. Many people on here are speculating that non-Christians want to see us Christians “set apart.” And they do, but it has nothing to do with drinking, or smoking, or cursing. They want to see us set apart in how we love other people, how we treat other people, and how we accept other people. In fact, many students and other non-Christians will say to me how it’s refreshing that I will have a drink with them, or that they can open up to me without fear of being judged. Sometimes it’s good to speak a language they can understand.
Yes, we need to be set apart, but the question is: What sets us apart?
Maybe some of us need to be a little less “set apart” so we can be a little more accessible to the people who don’t fit into our Christian clubs.
Anyone else feeling this: It’s like I want to stop commenting on this, but I can’t.
Must…….destroy……computer……
Anne, this speaks exactly to the point. Jesus is expressing that rules about what we eat or do DON’T make us unclean. It’s not what goes in. It’s is what is in the heart that makes us unclean. The evidences of the heart are then listed.
But Jesus point is the rules are not what makes a man clean or unclean.
Incidently, only one translation I found use the word ‘cussing’ for the greek word blasfhmia. Most interpretations use the word slander or blasphemies.
Nelly, the point of being a christian is not to be different. The point of being a christian is to finally live in fellowship with God because of the sacrifice of His Son. The ‘being different’ happens as a consequence of Him changing us into more of a reflection of Him. Rules are ineffective to cause change to happen.
‘Being different’ is also ineffective as a means of evangelism, as Steve alluded to above. If ‘different’ were the criteria people were looking for, groups such as the Mennonites or the United Pentecostals would have far more impact on our society.
If someone sees different in the life of a Christ follower, it’s those heart changes that cause them to be interested. As Steve already said “how we love other people, how we treat other people, and how we accept other people”. These are the characteristics that will cause other people to want to know more about Christ.
Steve, I spend nearly all my time with non-Christians. About the only interaction I have with Christians in online.
Plus your name is Steve, so I already like you. :)
But what about the choice for personal holiness in addition to our outward actions?
The choice for personal holiness is a PERSONAL CHOICE. Personal because it’s something you are prompted to do by the Holy Spirit working in YOU. Choice because you are faced with an opportunity to listen to the still small voice in your heart.
The issue arises when someone tries to impose what God is doing in THEIR life to somebody else’s life. At that point you have to define rules for people to understand because they aren’t feeling the same prompting you are.
Then rules get further removed from the original heart action and we end up in discussion like this trying to defend what was an honest prompting of God in somebodies life originally.
What if we taught people to listen and obey to the still small voice and let Him challenges us individually on what needs to change?
Anne, et al., What if someone were to say that women should start wearing more modest clothes? They went on to further define what clothes were acceptable including sleeves that went to your wrist, skirts (never pants), only things that were very loose and baggy, and never makeup.
Numerous scriptures could be cited in regards to personal holiness, not causing others to stumble, being different from the world we live in, even causing others to want to be like us.
This exact thing happened for many, many years in churches. Men and women were taught what clothes were acceptable and what wasn’t. Today churches would mock the sermons they preached in that time.
Does that mean that modesty shouldn’t be addressed? No. Modesty should be talked about and taught. However, when we start defining the length or type of clothes to adults most would consider that inappropriate.
Speech, language and the effects of our words can be talked about in ways that people will be challenged by God. I believe this is biblical. Establishing rules not defined in scripture of what is and isn’t appropriate is a slippery slope.
Defining what words are appropriate and what words are not are no different than telling people what clothes to wear.
Ok, since I’ve gotten no pressure to comment ( hint hint!) here’s one non-Christian’s views… I don’t really use curse words( not that I haven’t and dont), but they are not a part of my daily vocabulary. I agree that your surroundings, upbringing, region, etc. dictate which words are “curse” words and which are not. Some words that I would consider curse words may not be in other’s eyes, but I think we can all agree that words such as sh#t, f***, and those are. If you can’t say them around your mother, then you shouldn’t say them at all. In my part of the world, the Bible Belt of the South, I find a lot of those words disturbing, especially when coming from self-professed Christians. There is a guy at work who falls in line with these discussions. Now, if I didn’t know him at all, I would find it hard to believe that he is a Christian because of all the 4-letter words that fly out of his mouth during the day! It really, really makes me wonder. If you are truely what you say you are, then I believe that your actions and words should speak volumes about you. I agree with Breathe Fire, sort of. I think society has changed and evolved throught the years, and what was once unacceptable is now acceptable, or rather, gone unnoticed. Is that right? Is that the downfall of our society, that morals don’t matter anymore? I don’t know the answer to that, but I bet that Breathe Fire wouldn’t go around wearing Daisy Dukes and a halter top, cussing like a sailor, then show up at church every Sunday…
Tony, I don’t go to church so you wouldn’t find me there in any manner. Regarding inappropriate words, I don’t use them. I found long ago that I could effectively communicate without using words that might offend. That decision was completely autonomous from any religious choice though. And the word choices weren’t limited to what some might call ‘cuss’ words.
I think you’ve hit on a key point. Culture and context have a great influence on what’s acceptable and what’s not. Words considered inappropriate in the UK are different than words considered inappropriate here. Additionally, inappropriate words inappropriate in the Bible Belt would be very different than inappropriate words in California.
That’s precisely why a list of words is not the right approach. Teaching people to watch the words they say and the impact on others is more effective. No place is this more applicable than a blog on the public internet that is accessed by people from many different regions and cultures.
Regarding Daisy Dukes and a halter top, as a middle-aged man I’d probably not be accepted in most churches if I showed up dressed like that. ;-)
I dont really have anything to say, but i really want Anne’s blog to reach 100 comments so i am contributing…
i didnt really read anymore comments after mine, except the dude that called me out or whatever, and to that i say, well done.
To me, this is one of those things that im not entirely concerned about. I did think of a new point that has nothing to do with Christianity (whew, finally)
There are some circumstances that only a swear word will really prove what you are trying to say. Not to freak anyone out, or to “push the envelope” or whatever, but honestly the only word that will give the reader the picture you want to portray with your writing.
We’ve all heard George Carlin’s “Uses of the F word”
(if you havent, stop what you’re doing and listen to it)
steve, i think your point about being set apart it EXACTLY IT! i completely agree!
I’m comment 91. This is so f@#@$in cool.
Seriously. Great discussion.
Los
Again, still slightly blown away about how much this has been discussed. please know it was not my intent to force or pursuade anyone to think like I do, and to be quite honest, I’m not quite sure what I think – that’s why I asked questions and never really stated what I think…sneaky, huh? :-)
If I had an agenda, it’s to simply ask questions and hope that through this whole ordeal, you have asked yourself why you believe what you believe, you have learned something new, or learned a little bit more of what Scripture says.
Anne,
That was some amazing insight. I have also been impressed by some of the responses. I guess calling you my little cousin won’t work anymore. And do you realize how long it takes to read the post and all 91 comments at once? And I read fast. But I guess I should get to some of my comments.
Forgive any misunderstanding I may have over some of the teminology used. It’s been awhile since I’ve discussed how a christian should act. It’s great how we note what trends are affluent in christian society right now, and note how they’ve changed over the years. And we can see this as something that’s been going on for more than just the last couple of decades but for over two millenia now. The problem with this line of thought however is that it gives rise to the belief that the fundamentals have changed. Now, being a PK myself, I’ve had access all of my life not only to most english print versions of the bible, but also numerous commentaries and interpretations of various books, chapters, and verses contained within those various versions and editions. And while the verbiage changed, the fundamentals upon which most christians base their beliefs haven’t.
For those of us who may think Jesus was rebel, think again. The one thing that Jesus never did was break a law. Neither Man’s or God’s. As CHRISTians, we are to endeavor to be more like Christ. That’s not to say that we won’t fall. And the Bible tells us that we will all struggle with sin and temptation in our lives. This doesn’t however, excuse us, as christians, from being accountable to God for our transgressions.
I once met a chaplain in the Navy who would smoke from time to time in an effort to witness to Marines while they were on smoke breaks. He pointed out to me that the Bible doesn’t expressly forbid smoking, and like any other overly pious christian I responded that the Bible does tell us to treat our bodies as God’s temple and do not defile it. So let me ask this, “When did it suddenly become neccessary for us to become sinners to show non-christians that we aren’t judgemental of them?” Luke 6:37-42 speaks about judgement. This is a fine line that Christians must walk. To help our brothers and sisters we must confront them when we see them sin and remind them of who they claim to be. But at the same time we must forgive their transgressions as God does ours and not judge them or condemn them for those sins. When witnessing to non-believers though, we must remember that our responsibilty to them is not that of confrontation, but of example. Whether or not to drink, is a personal choice as I see it. And for those of us who use a drink as an icebreaker when speaking to non-christians, try not to break the ice too often in one sitting. Jesus may have had wine with his food, but he didn’t get into drinking contests with the disciples.
this is all pretty interesting… way to go anne, on starting a great conversation!
Don’t get me started on the whole “drinking, smoking, our bodies are temples” deal. If we can’t smoke, then we can’t eat fast food, ice cream, cookies, etc. etc. etc. Nor can we get a sunburn. Nor should any of us be out of breath after walking up a couple flights of stairs. None of that stuff helps our bodies; in fact, it can be just as bad, if not worse, than having an occassional smoke. But most of us are ok with cookies and tanning.
In fact, let’s talk about fasting. Talk about treating our bodies poorly…fasting is SO unhealthy physically. So God tells us to treat our bodies like temples and then tells us to starve ourselves for extended periods of time?
I don’t smoke, but I do eat an occassional double cheeseburger from McDonald’s. So who I am to talk about treating my body like a temple?
Actually, my real motive is to be comment #100…all this is just filler to help me get there. ;)
i used to cuss all the time but it seems like the more i choose to seek God’s knowledge, the more aware of it i am. when i am not in daily communication with Him, the words start to slip.
i have a friend that i see being changed daily by God’s own hand. i’ve heard her cuss. but she is choosing daily to hear what God is teaching her about loving Him and loving people…what more can you ask for?
Wow – my mom reads my blog, now my cousin in California!
In regard to 1 Cor 6:19 (I’m no bible scholar) but I think the context of this scripture, is Paul was speaking to the Corinthians about sexual immorality specifically (not that we can’t apply that to other areas) I believe (James, help?) that even more specifically he was referring to temple prostitution…I could be way off.
The 1 Cor 6:19 text is definitely about sexual immorality, and this is whole different discussion but Paul really seems to suggest that old cliche “all sins are the same” he suggests sexual immorality is a seperate category because of the Holy Spirit’s indwelling presence. Completely off the point.
What is on point is that the basis for Paul’s ethics, is “you were bought at a price” For Paul we are like slaves, our will is not our own, we exist to do the will of Christ. SO what is important in this discussion is what is God’s will on this, not an easy question to answer but not a question we should easily ignore either.
Given this discussion, have a look at
http://www.drurywriting.com/keith/legalism.scale.htm
99………………………….100!!!!!!!!!! What do I win?!?!?!?!?!?
SWWEEET! Uh, I dunno! Whaddya want?! :)
Also a milestone – mccourt was post #1000 since FlowerDust.net was started!
One thing I’ve noticed about this discussion is that it really shows how differently so many people view christianity. We have the one side, legalism, and the other side, non-conformity. I’m sure most of us have experienced what it is to be turned off or on to God because of how other christians react to sin in our lives. The same can be said of most non-christians in today’s American society. I like your abservation James but I must disagree with you on Paul’s position. Yes, he does believe we were bought for a price. And now we are left with a choice. Do the will of Christ, or don’t. That in and of itself is a daily decision for everyone. We aren’t slaves to God. We are His children. And like children, we have the option to do the will of our parents, or suffer the consequences that were put before us. The Bible has laid out for us guidelines and “rules” as to how we should live. I have yet to find flaw in conduct that it advocates and condemns. I have yet to suffer in my health for following it’s guidelines for eating AND fasting. So many people have told me that believing in God is what is neccessary for me to get into the Kingdom. It’s a good start, but Satan believes in God too. What separates him from God is SIN. We will all sin in our lives. What we do about it is what separates those who will enter the Kingdomfrom those who won’t. Those of us that commit sin while knowing that we should not, but do so anyway with the “God will forgive me” excuse, are shutting the Lord out of their hearts. The big problem is who’s drawing the line and where? Does the bible expressly forbid smoking? No. Does that mean it’s good for us? No. Will we go to hell for it? Only if it interferes with our walk with the Lord. The same applies to alchohol, cursing, money, clothing, etc.
It took me awhile to write this so it may not make post #100, but if it is, I’m sorry I took your spot Steve.
I’m not quite sure how you disagree?
104?! Boooooooo…..
Deana Watson…you are now my enemy. Beware!
this is an issue i’ve had to face this past year, having moved from the US to England. As a kid, growing up in a preacher’s household, I wasn’t even allowed to say “butt” “fart” or “crap”, much less the marginal-was-it-a-swear-or-wasnt-it “pissed off”. I used to get really upset to hear my Christian friends swear, even something as relatively mild as a damn or hell.
I never actually said a swear word until i was, i think 20? 21? it was, not surprisingly, while i was playing golf, and missed a putt, and completely unexpected to me “damn it!” came a’rolling right on out. my brother, a lifelong swearer, was thoroughly pleased. But in my mind, having grown up the way I did, it was just wrong. there wasn’t really any question.
It wasn’t until I came to England last year that I began to question it. it’s not even a country thing – it’s even regional!! i had a friend who said “crap” in a church in the south, and he was upbraided afterwards “Shit is acceptable, but not crap!!” Damn, Hell, and Ass (and in certain areas, Bitch) aren’t considered swear words in the world i now live in. but Pissed off *IS*.
it’s weird now that I will regularly throw out “WHAT THE HELL” but i rarely if ever talk about being pissed off.
what makes a swear a swear… who determines what is a swear and what isn’t? i dunno. i’m not entirely sure i’m comfortable with the level of damns and asses that work their way into my conversation (and for the sake of not giving my parents a heart attack, i don’t use them at home) so maybe i should scale back. but at the same time, i’m not going to get as uptight about it as i used to, where i think i probably held it as a source of pride in my life.
incidentally, bastard is not a swear. i am going to go ahead and make that claim. if you have a king james bible, read the book of james. it’s there.
Sorry James, maybe I misunderstood the point that you were making. You said “For Paul we are like slaves, our will is not our own, we exist to do the will of Christ.” and I took that to mean that you thought Paul believed that as Christians we do not have a will that is our own, but that of our master, God. And in that I disagree. For if it were so then does that mean that when a christian sins it’s not God’s will? And if so then why would we need to ask forgiveness for doing what God asks of us even though it goes against what the bible teaches us about right and wrong?
Levi, to answer you question about who determines what is a swear and what is not, the people around you do. Unfortunately, the old addage “Perception is reality” holds in your christian life as it does in your personal and professional life. When interacting with the people I do business with I have to watch what I say and how I say it so as not hurt my relationship with my clients. That also requires me to what what I say when my client’s ccustomers are around as well. Because how they feel about me and the company I represent, may affect how they do business with the clients that I provide products and service to.
This transfers to our christian lives as well. I’m sure we’ve all heard pastors, and laymen tell us that we need to try to emulate Christ in our lives. As Christians we are representatives of God, Son, and Spirit Inc. Just as a rude waiter will turn people off to eating at certain establishments, rude christians will turn people off to God. Most people in today’s society, use and view curse words in as a sign that they are angry, frustrated, or rude. And when we as christians use them, that lends credibility to the idea that christians are, angry, frustrated, or rude.
Colossians 3:8
But now you must also put away all the following: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and FILTHY LANGUAGE from your mouth.
Levi … Our English translations are just that, “translations” so because bastard is used in the KJV doesn’t mean we can use it on our culture. There are two factors, firstly what does the original word mean, was that counted by Greek culture as an offensive word, certainly in Jacobean Britain bastard was a technical word for an illegitimate child. now in our culture it became an offensive word. So whether it was used in the KJV or not doesn’t help us decide whether it we should use it today. This discussion isn’t about specific words but about using language which isused in a culture to deliberately give offence or shock, which is how swear words function sociologically.
Russell I think Paul DOES believe that Christians shouldn’t have a will of their own but should live God’s way, God’s will. Yes sin is against God’s will, that’s what it makes sin!
Paul doesn’t deny that Christians can live according to their own will but he does say this is inconsistent and wrong for them. This is the essence of Paul’s distinction between walking in the Flesh & Spirit. Walking according to the Spirit is living in the reality of all that Christ has done, empowered by the Spirit. Living in the flesh is fundamentally independent living, living for own purposes in our own power. Paul always says DON”T live by the flesh, put off the flesh.
Anne, I occasionally read your blog and it’s always refreshing. So, now I came to read your post and I find 108 comments, so it’s pretty hard to add something to the conversation. Where have I been these past 5 days????
I am amazed to see how differently we think about our christianity, how we defend it or we pervert it, we put it in a box with only “christian terms” or we cover it up with “being real”. About cursing, I guess I have the easy way out, because I am not from the US and English is my second language, so cuss words don’t bear as much significance to me(nor do I use them).And I don’t use them because I don’t think raw, tough words bring God pleasure or make me any better. I’m not offended by the mild cuss words, but for me, I choose to be different with my efforts to pursue holinessa nd not to pursue “acceptance” in a world that is going down. And , I don’t undertstand why some of you guys justify bad language or dinking or smoking with this “be real”. Isn’t that our sinful nature that we should try to eradicate as much as possible(never completely)?
Great discussion, Anne, I look forward to reading more.And good biblical references….it would take too long to comment on each of them.
Oh, I’m also glad to read that your new(not anymore) job is going well for you.
Let’s see…what do I want? How about some pics of your new digs? Oh oh oh if there are blubonnets out….pictures of bluebonnets!!!!!!!!!!
Being a part of a military environment, (West Point), I am around a lot of cussing, drinking, pornography, etc.
You don’t have to curse to be able to communicate. It shows how hollow you are, unable to communicate in good English. Distasteful it is to the core, and disregards the Biblical commandment to keep from allowing anything corrupt coming out of our mouths.
Being a Christian isn’t about being more like the world. It is about being more like Jesus. Why would someone want to change? Would they want to change because I am like them, or because I am like Jesus?
anne
make a new post
lets start a new topic
love ya
Perhaps you should checkout the differences (in meaning and usage)in terms and phrases using swearing, cursing, profane language, vulgar language, filthy communications, unsocial communications and other variations to include concepts in the Old and New Testaments.
There are many ways to identify with groups, however using that which is questionable takes no effort or intelligence.
The biblical principles (questions) rooted in scripture that I use are:
What would Jesus do?
Does it reflect overall New Testament principles?
What is my motive (really) in doing whatever I am doing or saying?
Does it build or tear down?
If it is doubtful—don’t!
why does the emergent church find it overwhelming necessary to be like the world?? We are to be a “peculiar” people–something different and separate from the world’s systems. I say there’s way too much compromise and “mirroring of the world” in certain churches today. Call me crazy, but I can not seem to picture Christ taking His Father’s name in vain!!
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Anne. Again, I am astounded that you took this on and attained such thoughtful response.
I have a theory that clogdom is personal stress relief space– where even ministers and Christian performers want a place to be unchecked and can “vent”. This is to our detriment when what we are in real life is not the same is what we are blogging…again, a heart issue. And, I like others here, am no longer interested in “real”. I want to be Christ-like. I would disagree that this makes me a boring Christ clone. If we could obey everything He told us to do, we would be changing the world. To change the world with purpose…to heal people, to make a difference in the way people think and live for their good. I can’t think of a more exciting life. There are so few “little Christs”…so little light in the world…that we still stand out like lights in a dark universe. I never see a star and think, “boy, that’s ones the same as the others…a little boring, don’t you think?” There is the same marvel. LIGHT!
When I sChristians finding such limited and uncreative vocabularly to express frustrations to try to be who they “really” are …it is an immediate turn off and distraction to their message. Most “curse” words are based on bodily elimination, hell, heaven, and sex. In our culture, we are seeing a blantant disregard and abuse of anything meant to be kept as private matters. Everything is funny, the brunt of a crude joke…so we think we’re being funny. We’re still being crude.
When I think of Scripture, and it may be here already…I had to take a break at comment 53 (wow!), “SPEAK ONLY WHAT IS GOOD FOR BUILDING UP ONE ANOTHER THAT IT MAY BENEFIT THE LISTENER.”
Words are precious stones scripturally, healing, an apt word like golden apples in settings of silver. We have no idea what gifts we give when we use them to benefit the listener.
You asked for Scripture: the best
Anne. Again, I am astounded that you took this on and attained such thoughtful response.
I have a theory that clogdom is personal stress relief space– where even ministers and Christian performers want a place to be unchecked and can “vent”. This is to our detriment when what we are in real life is not the same is what we are blogging…again, a heart issue. And, I like others here, am no longer interested in “real”. I want to be Christ-like. I would disagree that this makes me a boring Christ clone. If we could obey everything He told us to do, we would be changing the world. To change the world with purpose…to heal people, to make a difference in the way people think and live for their good. I can’t think of a more exciting life. There are so few “little Christs”…so little light in the world…that we still stand out like lights in a dark universe. I never see a star and think, “boy, that’s ones the same as the others…a little boring, don’t you think?” There is the same marvel. LIGHT!
When I sChristians finding such limited and uncreative vocabularly to express frustrations to try to be who they “really” are …it is an immediate turn off and distraction to their message. Most “curse” words are based on bodily elimination, hell, heaven, and sex. In our culture, we are seeing a blantant disregard and abuse of anything meant to be kept as private matters. Everything is funny, the brunt of a crude joke…so we think we’re being funny. We’re still being crude.
When I think of Scripture, and it may be here already…I had to take a break at comment 53 (wow!), “SPEAK ONLY WHAT IS GOOD FOR BUILDING UP ONE ANOTHER THAT IT MAY BENEFIT THE LISTENER.”
Words are precious stones scripturally, healing, an apt word like golden apples in settings of silver. We have no idea what gifts we give when we use them to benefit the listener.
You asked for Scripture: the best
sorry, my child hit “send” when I took a break to edit and look up the scripture. I’ll just leave it! Thanks again for a great topic. I’ll close with a quote I come back to on matters like this: “With increased authority comes increased responsibility in God’s economy”. Backward to the word’s economy in terms of freedom.
dang it anne! i just conformed to an edgier fad of christian living by going all smallcaps so my blogger comment ID would match my blog title! which i changed so it would match my blogger comment ID… Of course, I started a blog so the letters of my comment ID would be a pretty hyperlink shade of brown like everyone else’s…I’m all edgy now too, right? I hope so. Evil Dick aside, I’m too old for tattoos or piercings. Uh oh, I slipped into capitalizations again. Change is bad. Of course what’s really interesting here, is that this thread, which you started in 04 Apr 2006 08:14 pm, has popped back up to the top of your blog again (heh heh, you said, “clog”. All the cool kids are saying “godblog”). AND it has cuss words in it! So let’s drop the discussion of sacrifice and poverty and talk about something REALLY important! Are you a good witch, or a bad witch, Dorothy? Get it? Yer not in Kansas anymore? Get it? Oh, nevermind! (grin)
I know somebody who’s name is Randy Johnson. Should we all buy a ticket for his London vacation??
anne,
i really appreciate your thoughts here!
i myself have been wading through this stuff myself. you were able to put into words what i struggled to do myself in these 2 posts.
http://bryanstupar.blogspot.com/2007/12/being-real-or-glorying-in-your-garbage.html
http://bryanstupar.blogspot.com/2007/12/dont-use-me-to-feel-better-about.html
thanks again for the insight.
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