In under 24 hours over 500 people took the “Do Women Dress too Sexy” survey, which was the least scientific, most general survey the researchers at FlowerDust.net has ever conducted.
It was a short survey, so here are some of the results:
On a scale of 1-10 (1 being extremely immodest and 10 being extremely modest) how would you rank the level of modesty for women who claim to be followers of Christ? The average rating was 5.
On a scale from 1-10 (with 1 meaning extremely immodest and 10 meaning extremely modest), how would you rate the modesty level of women who claim to be irreligious? The average rating was 3.5.
Have you ever been distracted by what someone was wearing at church or a church event because it was immodest? 89% said yes.
Do you think women should dress more modestly in general? 87% said yes.
The top five most “immodest” things women wear (depending on context – in order of most votes to fewer votes):
- Deep V-necks (showing obvious cleavage) 94%
- Short Skirts 82%
- Short Shorts 79%
- Tight Fitting Jeans 43% *(it should be noted many people also added leggings in an “other” field).
- Tight Fitting Shirts 31%
And finally, here are 10 comments I chose that represented ideas presented consistently in the “If there was one thing you would want to tell women about dressing modestly, what would it be?”
“Guys have a harder time than you think, so think like them for a second while you plan what you wear.”
“I know that women probably roll their eyes a lot when they hear to dress modestly, but seriously, its a huge help. A. Huge. Help. Look, if you are an attractive woman, you are right, you cant control where guys thoughts go. But you dont have to help them get there quicker. A lot of us are really trying, and small skirts or deep cleavage just sets us back, no matter how strong we are. “
“Cover the cleavage. It’s intoxicating, they’re wonderful but I should really concentrate on my wife’s and not yours.”
“My sister, when it comes to being tempted visually, I am your much weaker brother. I would humbly ask, as you exercise your wonderful freedom in Christ, you would demonstrate grace and help me in my quest to live a life that honors our great God. YOU can help ME in my weakness.”
“If women knew the devastation that their immodesty could cause a man who is struggling with porn/lust (and his family), I think they might reconsider. ESPECIALLY in church….which “should” be a safe place for men to not have to dart their eyes every 2 seconds.”
“I would tell them about my husband’s former struggles with pornography and fantasy, about how much we underestimate the power we have over helping or hindering our brother’s walks with God, and the marriages of our sisters and how much a glance at another woman’s cleavage is heartbreaking to a wife. I would tell them that while that is not their FAULT, dressing modestly is a way to love and cherish our brothers and sisters in Christ, even when the temptation to get the attention and feeling of being noticed and desired is great (especially in our society). (Maybe that’s two things? I don’t know!)”
“What makes me sad is that most of us Christian girls don’t care about protecting our Christian brother’s purity. True, there are some things a guy can do, such as look away and not look again once he’s seen the girl dressed in skimpy clothes, but we need to do our part in helping them too. The way that God made them, it’s hard for them to not look and imagine the rest. If you think what you’re wearing is modest when you’re standing up, bend over and if your breasts or buttocks hang out, change into a less revealing outfit. Also, I’ve been told by Christian guys who care about this issue that even bra straps, or anthing that looks like bra straps, coming out from under a shirt can cause their minds to go off.”
“Dressing immodestly may seem harmless to anyone but yourself, but you must realize that’s not true. Try to be respectful to men who are trying to overcome sin. They struggle with lusting after immodestly dressed women. Some have absolutely no self control to look away. It’s really hard for them!”
“You don’t understand the intensity with which men are compelled in and battle these things…not giving us more to mentally work with does not win our battle (nor does dressing provocatively lose it) but simply being thoughtful in how you dress and doing your best to help us see who you are instead of how your body looks is greatly appreciated.”
“If you are a Christ-follower, please understand the lust issues that men face. It is difficult enough for us to stay mentally pure.”
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So there you have it. I understand the survey was extremely broad and everyone has a different opinion on what “modest” is to begin with. But I hope that you’ll see some consistencies and common threads woven throughout how people responded.
Any final thoughts?
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Comments
59 responses to “Sexy Survey Results”
Great comments from the men. Well put. I must admit that I struggle in not judging other women who dress in way that I deem “immodest” – they just aren’t the first people I want to build relationship with. Christian men look away from them so they won’t stumble…perhaps women also look away, but in judgment of them? So who is really seeing these women? Help me Lord.
This was an excellent survey Anne. Broad, yes, but it cut right to the heart of it.
I am pleased that you added our Christian brothers’ comments as it helps us see their struggle more clearly.
Especially this one:
?My sister, when it comes to being tempted visually, I am your much weaker brother. I would humbly ask, as you exercise your wonderful freedom in Christ, you would demonstrate grace and help me in my quest to live a life that honors our great God. YOU can help ME in my weakness.?
The gospel isn’t about sexual ethics, and I think it must please Satan greatly that we spend so much time worrying about these things rather than doing God’s work.
Anne, AMAZING, thank you.
Texas in Africa – part of God’s work is having people obey Him so we *can* focus on His work! Immodesty distracts from the gospel – big time! :)
This is so frustrating for me. I cover up. Everything. All the time. It makes me feel so unattractive, honestly, to know that I constantly have to wear longer skirts than I find comfortable or pants. Always. I always have to wear a shirt under my shirt so it’s not too low and quite often a jacket over the shirt that’s over the other shirt. I feel stifled. Uncomfortable. Like I can’t move.
I feel ugly.
Just because I’m trying to be modest.
And it still doesn’t stop the guys in the band from staring at my boobs and making comments about them.
Anne, thanks for being willing to talk about this subject and bring it up. You don’t know demoralizing it can be to a Christian man when he tries discussing this issue and humbly asks for a sister in Christ to take a small step to help him fight demons and she responds “that’s your problem, not mine!” It almost borders on a self-idolatry issue that your wanting to pick whatever clothing you want is more important than helping a Christian brother in his battle to be pure.
I’m not saying women should wear muumuus or anything like that because even if they did many men would still have issues with their thought life. Still, if a man actually admits that he’s struggling with the way you or some woman dresses then it’s a real danger sign. A lot of guys wouldn’t even bring it up until they’ve had about all they can take.
Very insightful, very interesting. It was good to see the results, but what I really appreciated was the comments. Great points made. Much food for thought.
I have difficulty respecting and taking a woman seriously when she is dressed immodestly. It makes me wonder what she is trying to draw attention away from, and what kind of attention she is trying to gain, and why.
Anne,
I too, was very much impressed with all the comments from men asking women for help in this area! I think it was very honest and brave of them to come right out and ask like they did. I wish more guys, like in Small Group classes, Sunday School, etc, could be as outspoken and as honest! Very good survey and very eye-opening (so to speak, sorry).
Amy
Great comments here. Jason… I like the muumu comment… the Canadian version we say is “I’d still have a problem if she was wearing a snow suit” which I realize is not as funny… anyway!
This is a great discussion though because, as a guy in ministry, this comes up a lot. I had this discussion with my youth group one night about modesty and we heard from the kids and it was crazy how raw and honest they were! We heard everything form “If you have a problem with how I dress then don’t look.” to the muumu thing again.
So… this is good but, I think that we (guys) should never simply pass the buck and say “Whelp… she’s dressin’ all sexy and there’s just nuthin’ I can do about it!” and unfortunately that’s often what this discussion becomes.
On a funny aside, when my wife and were newly married she had this weird thing where she would point out scantily clad girls to me and say “Can you believe she’s wearing that!!??” It took some time for me to muster up the courage to tell her that doing that wasn’t helpful for my thought life. We still laugh about that but part of the conclusion to that episode was my realization that I needed to take ownership of my thoughts and focusses.
Anyway, cool post Anne, you full-time writer you!
Chris
WOW! I just got home (less than an hour ago) from the God’s Girls program I lead. This exact thing is something we teach them (12 girls ages 10-13 from the inner city…I am a missionary here). On their final contract there is a statement they sign vowing to help protect their brothers in Christ with their modesty in both dress and action.
If only I could convince my adult friends to do the same thing. Teaching these girls for the past 5 years has opened my eyes to modesty as a whole and I have changed so much about how I dress to help protect my brothers. I talked to SO many of my male Christian friends to prepare and learned so much over the years about their struggles.
I have never been to your blog before-(came from a tweet form Sarah Mae ) but just had to comment, it was very encouraging to read this post! I plan to look around more ;)
Carisa
Extremely convicting and encouraging post, Anne (and thank you to all of the men who contributed their thoughts on this subject in a very respectful manner).
I figure this time would be a good one to ask a question for any males who might be reading. Guys, do you have any advice on the following…
– How big of a problem are sheer fabrics if women wear them over a modest shirt underneath?
– What about camisoles or tank tops that don’t have a low-cut front? If they completely cover cleavage, are the shoulders, back, and bare arms still a problem?
Was wondering what the age range was on the survey and thinking this would be a good/often teaching topic for youth pastors. As someone who has a teenage son, I’m appalled at what some of the church parents allow their teens to ware for youth events. Young teens dressing modestly I think has an excellent return on investment and can help young men struggling with lust.
I don’t know Anne, all the comments you highlighted took the same tack – “please cover up your body like you would if we lived in Iran, because I am so weak and pathetic and unwilling/unable to let the Spirit grow me up that if I so much as see your bra strap I might fall into sin and surf a big ol’ wave of net-porn.”
I guess I can appreciate having women discuss where the line exists between appropriate vs. immodest attire.
But I would really like to see more discussion from the men about how we’re going to make a covenant with our eyes, minds, and hearts. If you really are our sisters, then we should think of you like our sisters. And lusting after your sister is just gross.
Just saying.
@bert – the majority of the people fell in the 25-44 range, although every age group took it.
Seems to me a similar survey might be in order for gals about their thoughts about how guys dress themselves. I suspect it’s not nearly as pervasive a problem since females tend to be less visually driven, at least in gender related matters. But as in all things, temptation is a truly common thing.
This is REALLY important stuff. As a red-blooded male, I wrestle with this like most others do. However, the pendulum always tends to swing too far in one direction or the other. I would hope that, in our quest to be Holy as He is Holy, we won’t revert to puritanical views and heap new legalism on our daughters. There has to be a balance here. And, that is tricky since men are plagued with this “curse” of visual-ism.
I use to work at an ad agency. The women in marketing always wore revealing outfits with deep v-necks and tight short skirts. You’d think there was a competition going on about who could show the most cleavage. I got bombarded with it so much that it shifted from being distracting to being annoying. You dont need to show a massive about of cleavage for a guy to see you as pretty and sexy or for you to feel that way about yourself.
On another note, i dont think that you have to take this from a purely “help the guys not be tempted” outlook. I’d say that it could arguably be considered prideful. it’s very “look at me, look at me, look how much better I am” in the same way a flashy car, expensive clothes, and big diamond rings are. You’ve had those boobs since high school (unless you just bought a new pair… haha). Get over it.
on a funny note:
“Women say they have sexual thoughts too. They have no idea. It’s the difference between shooting a bullet and throwing it. If they knew what we were really thinking, they’d never stop slapping us.” — Larry Miller
In response to Michael Raburn – thank you. I hear very little directed to men about holding their thoughts captive to the obedience of Christ. If I have a struggle I’m expected to identify the temptation, pray, CHANGE my behavior and maintain self-control, etc. If men struggle with visual temptations, I’m somehow made to bear more of the responsibility for their struggle than they are. I must cover any skin that they find appealing, which is different for every man! Some like shoulders, some like cleavage, some like legs and some like things that just gross me out. Where do we draw the line? A woman in Iran was almost arrested as she ate an apple because she was eating it too sexily – she was covered and veiled! What the heck?
I agree that women should dress modestly, it’s just that each person has a different definition of that word. Various denominations define it in various ways. This discussion seemed to go off on how women dress without holding men accountable for their responsibility to Christ and their sisters in Christ. If men are as bad as they claim to be in this forum, then even wearing a burqa won’t protect me or stop them from lusting. That’s a much bigger issue than how I dress.
AWHHHHH, so glad you did this… It’s SO IMPORTANT to protect the hearts of our fellow brothers in Christ… AMEN>>>>
I agree with both sides. I would just like to add that “modesty” is a lot different today than, say, 100 years ago, let alone the rest of human history. Probably 80% of what we’re even talking about being modest would get people thrown out of the church all the previous centuries. Today’s society has a much different view on what’s “acceptable”.
All to say, I think an important distinction to make is that “modesty” is not a set line in terms of what’s too much skin in the clothing realm, but it’s more an attitude and an intention. I don’t think that women today should all dress the way women did in Jesus time, but I also don’t think saying “I don’t feel as attractive because guys don’t give me as much attention when I’m covered up, or because I don’t get to dress like everyone else in our society,” is a healthy way to go about things either.
Before I start off, I’d like to say that as a married woman and mother of 3, I’m not walking around with anything hanging out. :) I think modesty is one of those things that we, as “churchy” people, worry about a bit too much. I do cringe when I hear that women should dress modestly so as not to tempt men but that’s not even the thing that bothers me the most about this. The thing that makes me CRINGE with a capital C is the idea that a non-Christian would hear us discussing this… sort of takes away from the “come as you are” gospel, don’t you think?
I am very interested in the comments provided by both Kayla and Michael Raburn. There is something about this discussion that just makes me uneasy. While I appreciate men trying to keep pure thoughts, I am very uncomfortable with placing the responsibility of this on women and how they dress. One of the comments from the survey mentioned bra straps. Bra straps? Really? Women should hide all evidence of their God-created gender except in front of their husbands?
Do we require the same from men? In the same logic, is it OK for guys to take their shirts off at a pool or in the park or is this going to cause someone to have unpure thoughts?
Or are we less willing as men to give up our freedoms for our struggling brothers and sisters?
I like that some of you are feeling uneasy. That’s what discussion is all about :)
I think there is a balance. I’m glad Rob pointed out the bra strap thing. Really? Women should dress modestly. For me that means the sisters are not hanging out and I don’t have shorts or skirts so short they look like a part of my underwear. However, men MUST guard there thoughts. As a woman, I have to guard my thoughts (and guys…it’s hard for us to. Your fooling yourselves if you think it doesn’t go both ways). That is my resposibility to my Savior. Yes, women can help men you out but they cannot make you control lustful thoughts. My heart broke for Kayla as she talked how she dressed modestly and the creeps still made jokes about her chest. That is a perfect example of how guys need to guard their hearts and minds. On a side note, it cracks me up how Christian men can see the trashiest movies and that treat women as sex objects. Then tell us we should dress modestly so they can protect the purity. While I agree with that to a certain extent, I think men need to look at the garbage they are putting in their minds too. I’m off my rant now :)
the ?come as you are? attitude is great at church, but the “if you’ve got it flaunt it” attitude isnt.
As a mom to boys 12&11 and a girl who is 6 I try to teach
both sides of the road. Both personal responsibility and empathy.
You can’t be on one side of the tracks on this one…you really have to be open minded enough to see both sides.
i’ll be honest … i think we spend entirely too much time talking about this subject. and the amount of time in my youth that was spent by youth pastors talking about this, actually led to me doubting my own sexuality and the beauty that should be recognized in being a woman. oh, and as a woman, it’s really difficult for me not to become irritated when the “guard men’s hearts” thing comes up. perhaps it’s the because a few bad apples have ruined it for the rest … but i don’t feel like it’s my responsibility to make sure i’m fully covered for the sake of keeping your wandering minds at bay. and i’d say the same visa versa. i could be wearing plane old jeans, a ‘modest’ shirt and happen to have done my hair and make up one sunday and all of a sudden, the potential for “lusting” increasesfor the male counterparts … depending on their moods. likewise, if a new guy happens to be in the worship band that sunday and he’s super trendy looking (no tight jeans … no revealing apparel) but he’s got a guitar and sings … most of my lady counterparts would be figuring out the quickest way to get a date with him.
so. i apologize for the lack of ‘holiness’ in this response, but i’ve spent my entire life listening to youth group messages and sermons about modesty and, as someone who is in shape and moderately attractive, i feel that i can’t win. no matter what. and to be honest … i don’t feel responsible anymore for the men who can’t seem to admit that perhaps they need help. (again … i would say the same for women who can’t keep their minds from wandering too).
we’re humans. we’re sexual beings. and while immodest apparel may make some ‘lust,’ playing an instrument or being on the church flag football team (skins vs. shirts) may make others ‘lust.’ so i don’t think it’s as cut and dry as we like it to be to fit into the little boxes we create.
Anne- I liken this to when I’m on a diet, and everyone around me is eating rich chocolatey desserts in my presence. They are not necessarily doing anything wrong- I’M the one with the overeating problem, but if they know I am struggling to lose weight and stop overeating, and then they continue ordering these rich desserts and flaunting them before me even after I have told them of my temptation and the difficulty is was causing me- I think then they are just being insensitive. They don’t have to change their diet due to MY eating disorder, but in my presence, it would be a loving, sensitive thing to do to just forego the rich dessert until I leave their presence.
Sometimes, it’s just about thinking of others. And yes, even in the way we dress.
As a woman, I don’t think that’s too much to ask. (And I love to dress sexy- but my husband is the one who gets his eyes full! Not strange men.)
Krysta:
I hope you don’t find this reply out of line. I just read your response and it resonated with me.
You wrote: “i don?t feel like it?s my responsibility to make sure i?m fully covered for the sake of keeping your wandering minds at bay. and i?d say the same visa versa” then went on to basically point the fingers at others that to me looked like you were saying essentially, “that’s your problem…not mine!”
We are all part of the body of Christ and as such do have responsibility to each other to make sure we don’t actively take part in causing another one of us to sin. Do we ultimately have to take responsibility for our own actions? Absolutely. Every man who may look on you lustfully has to answer to God for their actions. If you’re wearing “plane old jeans, a ?modest? shirt” and “happen to have done my hair ” and some guy can’t handle it then that’s his problem because you have taken steps to wear clothing that isn’t designed to make someone look at parts of your body.
However, if your jeans are tight enough to hug every single curve tightly or what you may consider a “modest” shirt but is cut low enough to show more than your average blouse then there’s a burden on you if you draw enough attention from your apparel to make a man look who might otherwise not look at you because of your apparel.
It would be like going up to someone who is struggling with alcohol and sitting in front of them with a cold six pack of that person’s favorite beer and then slowly drinking all six in front of them. If that person is in a moment of weakness or feeling especially tempted or really struggling that day your action could help trigger them into getting drunk (which is a sin according to scripture.) Can you really say that you have no part in their falling into sin?
“i don?t feel responsible anymore for the men who can?t seem to admit that perhaps they need help.” You shouldn’t feel responsible for THEM. You should feel responsible if YOU have done anything that would knowingly drive them to something they shouldn’t do. If you have a blouse that shows more cleavage than it covers you should reasonably expect that it could draw men’s attention in a negative way. Saying it’s their fault for lusting doesn’t excuse that fact.
We are all subject to each other in the body of Christ. We are all God’s children together and in that we have to realize that there are things we can do that hamper another believer’s walk. I know…some will take the “modesty” angle to an extreme but I really don’t see where a large mass of people are asking you to come up with burqas to sell with “A Breadcrumb and Fish” on it so it’s Christian. Just like a man is expected to guard his thoughts so too should a woman guard against putting a millstone around his neck.
I know that you are tired of these kinds of discussions. You’re not alone in that. The problem is that silence has led to large segments of Christians struggling with lust and sex and pornography. These kinds of matters need to be talked about and when women say “well, it’s just their problem” it really encourages silence on the part of the men. That helps no one. We need to realize that our actions have consequences and try to be alert and sensitive to the Spirit to let us know when we’re crossing a line.
Sherri – the only problem with your logic is that according to the survey results, almost EVERY man has such a serious problem with lust that even if we dress in burqas we risk tempting them. So is the fact that we’re female insensitive to men? While I agree and do in fact dress modestly, even at the beach, it IS important for men to accept some responsibility for their problem with lust. I’m tired of being made to accept full responsibility for a shared issue. And I’m REALLY tired of men using the “we’re visual” excuse. While that is obviously a fact, it’s not like they don’t have the power of the Holy Spirit to help them deal with their identified struggle. I’m willing to dress modestly but I want the men to quit using excuses and take their share of responsibility.
No, Jason, it is not “that silence has led to large segments of Christians struggling with lust and sex and pornography.” It is that we persistently treat women as objects, not as human beings. Twice in a row in this discussion this has happened. You made an analogy between a woman’s body and a six pack of beer, Sherri to a rich dessert.
Such comparisons reveal that the root problem of the objectification of women is still going strong and is not even something we bother to address. Women are not merely objects of men’s desires; their bodies are not the problem.
When a man stops regarding the women around him as objects and sees them as his sisters, the problem of lust of the eyes diminishes significantly. It also helps if he stops engaging in media outlets that objectify women (which is pretty much all of them) and learns to respect women as his co-equals before the Lord. Remember, man was not made in God’s image – the man and the woman were both together made in God’s image.
When we make this about covering women up, what we are really covering up is our own sin and our rebellion against the order that God created and seeks to restore in the lives of Jesus’ disciples. Sin can’t be covered up or managed; it must be repented of, renounced, healed of, and forsaken. Don’t be content with any version of conformity, instead be transformed by the renewing of your mind, in the power of the Holy Spirit.
Michael, I’m sorry but you are simply wrong if you think that the silence of the church has not contributed to Christians struggling with sex and lust and pornography. If more churches were open to discussing these matters then it wouldn’t seem like such a horrible taboo for these subjects to come up in the company of Christians. You wouldn’t have as many pastors and worship leaders and the high percentages of Christian men surfing porn sites or just having those lustful, objectifying thoughts about women because they would be talking with each other, holding each other accountable and having the support they need from the body of Christ.
When there is an atmosphere that these kinds of issues must be kept in either because people think it’s not their problem if a segment of the church body is struggling or they’re too ashamed to ask each other how they’re really doing in their walk then you do nothing but allow these sins to grow in darkness.
“Iron sharpens iron, and one man sharpens another” it says in Proverbs 27:17…not “iron can sharpen himself alone on this subject because it’s better not to talk about things involving sex.”
You also appear to not understand of the problems of addicts who struggle with sexual matters if you’re so quick to write off things like the analogy I posted of a six pack of beer. To put in terms of an SAT question…woman showing lots of skin is to someone struggling with sexual issues as someone pounding down a six pack of beer is to someone struggling with alcohol abuse. These things are triggers and temptations and as it says in Matthew 18:7 “woe to the one by whom the temptation comes.” All of us have to be responsible for our actions and the way those actions would reflect on another person. If we know that what we’re doing or wearing or saying would cause someone to sin then we shouldn’t be engaging in it exactly the same as a man shouldn’t be looking upon a woman other than his wife in lust.
Objectification of women is a problem but it’s foolish to just say “look at them as your sisters and all this will go away.” Do you really think walking up to some man who’s been struggling with porn and lust and telling him that is going to make him turn on a dime? If so, you’ve apparently never been around someone who is an addict. It may be as simple of that in the concept…but it’s nowhere near that easy in the practice of it for many millions of men who aren’t lesser Christians because they struggle with that issue. It may not be a problem for you, Michael. Praise God that it’s not if that is the case…but heaping scorn toward those who struggle with it or telling them they just need to get over it isn’t helping them or really showing them the truth in love.
If anything, your statement about objectification is a byproduct of the silence of the church. If the church was speaking out and saying that women are not objects and hammering that point home in their sermons and men’s groups and accountability groups then it would go along way to helping alleviate the problem. Instead, we get silence from most churches and when you see someone like Mark Driscoll do a series like The Peasant Princess you have churches from all over condemning him as being salacious in the pulpit.
Even with all of that, it doesn’t give a blanket exemption to women to dress in any manner they want to dress. As I said before, I don’t see anyone advocating “covering women up.” Show me where that was the case, please. There’s a huge difference between a blouse that shows a little cleavage and one so low you can see who manufactured their bra. Just because you think the former is modestly dressing versus the other it doesn’t mean you’re telling all women to run out and “cover up.”
You’re right in that we’re co-equals before the Lord…we’re all equally responsible for the choices that we make in this life. A man is responsible for his choice to look at a woman who may be dressed provocatively. A woman is also responsible for making sure she doesn’t dress in a manner that she knows could likely cause men to lust in their hearts. Neither side should equally be held accountable for their decisions and will be by the Lord.
Thanks for the discussion, Michael. Blessings to you.
Um, no the church has not been silent on this issue. It’s a major topic of discussion for the better part of the church’s 2000+ year history. We have lots of monasteries and convents to show for it too.
Your analogy fails because it does not convey a comparable relationship. An analogy states that the relationship between A and B is comparable to the relationship between C and D. But the relationship between a male sex addict and the women around him is not comparable to the relationship between a recovering alcoholic and a six pack of beer. If you think it is, then perhaps men who are sex addicts should go and live in those monasteries. Otherwise, they must learn (and yes, I agree, be taught) that a fundamental part of their problem is that they regard women much as an alcoholic regards beer. With sex addiction, it is imperative that how the addict views others be addressed. No healing is possible without this.
The issue of covering up is what has dominated this discussion. Somewhere (way up) above, another man plainly said that viewing a stray bra strap was a problem.
I believe everyone should obey what they feel the Lord is telling them to do. Women should dress like they are going to God’s throne room (they are already there). Men should make a covenant with their eyes, minds, and hearts.
Remember the Sermon on the Mount. Jesus didn’t say, if you have a problem with lust make the women dress more modestly. He said, if your eyes cause you to lust – pluck them out.
I don’t want to hijack this board (any more than I already have), so that’s my last word.
Pluck.them.out.
RC- I don’t feel like I’m taking full responsiblity for a man’s lust problem- I’m just making sure that my responsiblity is not taken lightly. His part is between him and God- my part is between God and me.
Micheal- a rich dessert was an alalogy of something I have a problem declining-insert any desire- I was speaking for myself- and I don’t regard women as objects.
Even I don’t want to see another woman’s boobs in my face- I find them distracting and I don’t find them attractive!
Although woman aren’t known for being “visual creatures”, I don’t want a man parading around in a speedo at church! I will admit- I would be distracted! It’s TMI that I don’t need!
I think just a bit of common sense by both sexes could easily remedy many problems- not all, but many.
Thanks Anne…this really did make me think. My ex-husband struggled with all of these issues greatly and it led to the demise of our marriage. Being single again and feeling “rejected” has made me crave more attention at times. I am conservative and aware, but even still…this just put an explanation mark on “be careful! be different! Be bold and protective!” thanks!!
There is a great line in one of my favorite books…”the girls displayed lacy bra straps inside their T-shirt necklines. The fact that the necklines were outsized and that the two pairs of straps matched – they were apricot colored- made Mrs. Olinski believe that they were not making a fashion statement as much as they were saying something.” (the View from Saturday b Konigsburg)
I need to remember what “I am saying”!! Thanks
May God bless you tomorrow with peace…overwhelming peace. May He guide the doctors hands, may it be their best day yet. May you experience healing inside and out.
In Him!
Hmm.
Scottee, I have nothing to say to you besides telling you to hie thyself to a bookstore and find Captivating. And make effort to see it from another point of view.
Krysta, TOUCHE! I could curl my hair and put on heels and get different looks as opposed to wearing a pony tail and flip flops in the same outfit. Men notice what they want to notice and think about what they want to think about. The Bible repeatedly admonishes us to control what our minds rest upon and what our tongues talk about. It’s not impossible.
I think that most of the comments that were highlighted in the blog post sound like people whining for welfare because they don’t want to get a job (I can say this- I watched my mom scrub floors on her hands and knees because we lived below the poverty line but she did NOT want to depend on welfare). It’s saying, “I struggle, but I’m too lazy to face this and overcome. Please do all of the hard work for me. Thx.” Um, no. Sermon on the Mount is a great example (thanks, Michael, for stepping up). This is the reason that I am SO tired of men. Even many, I daresay most, Christian men refuse to step up and take charge, pushing off their responsibilities onto other people so that their burden will not be so great, rather than looking to Christ for help and strength. Men want to be leaders in the church and use Bible verses out of context to support their views but won’t do the grunt work necessary to form them into leaders. I think feminism is a load of crap, but it was born out of desperation. From women who saw men starting to whine about everything and refusing to let them lead because these type of men are not fit to lead.
I, too, think it’s disturbing that we CONTINUE to hash this out. And that it’s such a one sided argument. AND that it’s so unforgivable. A man saying that he cannot respect a woman that dresses immodestly? Perhaps if you showed her respect, she could learn to have more respect for herself. Perhaps she doesn’t even realize that she isn’t respecting herself.
I guess I’d love for a man to take the high road here for once. For men to treat women like their sisters in Christ rather than thinking about their boobs and curves and then saying that women should act like their sisters. And I’d love for women to start demanding that men treat them like sisters rather than saying, “Oh, I need to help my brothers!” Why don’t we let the brothers help us too?
I am a firm believer in modesty. However, I agree in large part with many of those who feel like this topic is over-talked about in our churches. I really wish we could get at the underlying issues here instead of just the symptoms. There’s too many girls who have heard modesty talks who never hear about how they shouldn’t give their hearts away too quickly either. Too many girls who struggle with self-worth and belonging/identity whose issues are manifested in the way that they dress.
Shelley, I think that would be a great line if it wasn’t a children’s book. After reading that line, I decided not to put the book on the shelf of my classroom library.
This comment is infuriating: ?Cover the cleavage. It?s intoxicating, they?re wonderful but I should really concentrate on my wife?s and not yours.?
It’s not MY responsibility to keep your marriage intact. I don’t want to wear what YOU think I should wear. Other men or women have NO right to tell me what I can and cannot wear. Might I add to this that I don’t overdo the “sexy”. I don’t wear super cleavage shirts and short short skirts. I can be wearing a shirt up to my neck and still have men staring at my breasts! And I still have the right to buy and wear WHATEVER I WANT.
You’re blaming the wrong person there, pal. Take some ownership of your inability to keep your eyes off our breasts.
I get it, I do. No one attack me, please. I understand there are exceptions to every rule, and there ARE women of all ages occasionally wearing inappropriate things to church or out on the sidewalk. I’m not saying that ALL WOMEN are dressing modestly.
But someone explain to me why men stare at my breasts (not boobies, boobs, jugs, fun bags, sweater puppets, or whatever demeaning thing you want to call them) and then blame ME for it? We can’t exactly help it.
God GAVE me this body. We’re always so terrified to celebrate what we have. Covering up, as Kayla said, sometimes makes us feel ugly. I’m in no means saying that we should go off and buy the lowest V cut shirt we can find, but maybe… JUST MAYBE – we’re happy with our bodies. But all this SHAME you spout and BLAME you put on us is not healthy.
And people wonder why women struggle so very hard with self-esteem and self-image issues. All I know is God gave me what He gave me. And I celebrate my body. All women should.
I will echo those who are uneasy with the comments placing the bulk of responsibility on women for men’s “impure” thoughts. As if the primary motivation for women dressing “modestly” is not for themselves, but for the men that may be around them. I think this type of thinking is consistent with the pervasiveness in this culture of women seeing their sexuality as an extension of a man’s. Not something that is their’s, that is intrinsic to their being. It is particularly disheartening (but not surprising) to see that same thing being Christian circles.
Instead of admonishing women to cover up to help men, how about turning the question back to them. “What makes you feel beautiful, respected, honored, and powerful?” “How can your appearance match your character and your values?” Those questions get to the heart of why we dress and carry ourselves as we do much more than telling women that their shirts are too, skirts too tight, and shorts too short…
I have to disagree that any of these comments were placing a bulk of responsibility on women. However I do think it is extremely selfish for us women to get so upset about helping men out. We can respect our bodies and look modest.
Not to mention the *exaggeration* 8 million times in Scripture we are talked to about being modest and carrying a gentle spirit. For sho.
Vaguely remembering something about a verse that says to consider others better than ourselves.
But then again, I’m just an old baptist. :)
Good post, Anne. Fascinating results.
Anne – what I think is offensive and infuriating is that the ALL of the comments you posted are almost exclusively asking women to be modest FOR MEN’S protection. Nothing in the comments you presented are about women being modest as an expression of how we see OURSELVES as the beautiful women that God created.
And to be honest, the issue as presented is not so much modesty, which biblically extends to more than just dress, but also to demeanor, but about sexuality…
Anne, thanks for always being willing to “go there”. I’ve had a draft saved for a couple of weeks now about a recent church visit where I was incredibly distracted because of this very thing … I think I’ll finish that post, publish it, and link here for extra dialog as well.
Anne, I believe as a church we’re approaching this whole area incorrectly. The “Girls, watch how you dress” and “Guys watch your eyes” approach I don’t think is a Biblical or human attitude or strategy. Modesty really has nothing to do with how much flesh is exposed, but how much we inappropriately draw attention to ourselves. In fact, the scriptures most quoted about this deal with wearing too many decorations.
Regarding watching one’s eyes, interest in the human body is not inherently sexual or immoral. By making it taboo, we suppress natural curiosity that was never meant to be discarded and we cultivate prurient attitudes toward the body.
We need to radically re-frame the whole approach. I believe we need to resist the objectification of the body as a commodity. When we promote the “bounce the eyes” and “cover up” mentality we reinforce the body as a commodity. Additionally, by promoting alienation from the body we bury people’s personhood behind their physical body. Because we’re afraid of lusting we see people as merely bodies rather than as people. This is very unchristian.
As a missionary, I’ve witnessed women pulling up their blouses and breast feeding quite openly during church services. On one occasion a pastor’s young son was with us, sitting up on stage, witnessing a panoply of breasts during our long service. Another visiting Western Christian commented afterward that she was sorry he had to experience that. I told her I was glad he did. What a better way to see what breasts are for, than to watch dozens of devoted Christian women feed their babies with them, in church no less. Brothers who are stumbled by cleavage or short skirts need large doses of what this pastor’s young son experienced.
By a healthy exposure to the human body (through the arts, for example) and a Christian attitude toward the body (hint: it’s good and wonderful and not something to be afraid of) coupled with an emphasis on relationships and accepting people for who they are, I think we have a better chance of helping both Christian men and women. Curiosity and aesthetic appreciation is not lust. Purity has to do with right relationships.
Anne,
Thank you for taking the time to do this!
This weekend I am speaking with some girls about modesty and would love to use some stuff you have on here. Would that be ok?
This debate reminds me of a story my mom told me once about her grandfather. For a young woman coming of age in the late sixties, miniskirts and bikinis were common, but still controversial. In her grandfather’s time, the only skin revealed by a woman was her ankle. I’m sure many people could argue that you can learn a lot from an ankle…but I digress. She told me that they would go out in public and he would say “look at the turn of her ankle” to my mom–even if the woman were wearing a clingy dress or miniskirt. He could have said “nice a$$!” but he didn’t…my point? Dressing modestly isn’t a fix all. There is ALWAYS something that can be found sexy, alluring, inviting. And I don’t think ANYONE brought up the “dressing sexy as rape defense” story, but it applies here. I loved the argument not to objectify women, as comparing us to desserts and beer. We are people. Human beings. I am married, and a sluttily-dressed woman doesn’t scare me. I’m not afraid for my marriage. Marriage is more than lust; so much more that lust means nothing to me. It might be 2%. I am sad for that woman because I wonder why she feels compelled to dress that way. So here’s a thought: instead of putting this off as the woman’s burden AGAIN (which it is not) or even making it the man’s burden (as I am wont to do), let’s think compassionately for the woman that obviously has dressed for the attention of men and women, say a quick prayer for her, and move on. And those women who dress innocently in something maybe a little too tight, a little too low-cut, let’s GET OVER IT. Men will find something sexy on a woman if they are predisposed to do so. My husband looks at a woman dressed provocatively and tells me it makes him sad. What does he find sexy about me? The way I shift my glasses on the bridge of my nose, the times I have a definition of a word or answer to a trvia question, the shape of my thighs in workout gear (read: strong, fit, real), the curve of my stomach and the potential of his child residing inside it, the drape of his large sweatshirt over my smaller frame. Yes, he likes my breasts as well…but that’s not what makes me more “sexy” more different, more special than any other woman with mammary glands. And that is why I married him.
Anne,
Very interesting post and some excellent discussion following. It’s amazing how diverse opinions can be on what would seem to be a simple topic. I find Korey’s comment on “turn of the ankle” interesting as it points out that at one time women were so well covered that their ankles were considered sexy. Today, I can’t imagine that very many men are turned on by ankles. As the amount of clothes people wear seems to decrease, more intimate areas are being exposed. (Makes me wonder what’s considered sexy at a nudist resort? It’s all exposed, so there’s no mystery and nothing left to the imagination, is there?) Could be that some of what draws the imagination of a man is the mystery of the rest of the body? Therein lies the need to take every thought into captivity to the knowledge of Christ.
Having said that, I would also add that I appreciate women and young ladies who choose to dress appropriately and are cautious about bending over (potentially exposing breasts) and also squatting down in skirts. Interestingly, these efforts towards modesty come across as classy, tasteful and respectful of herself and those around her. When my daughter (15) bends over to pick up her purse, I’m pleased and proud to see that she would use a hand to make sure her top isn’t gapping. She dresses modestly but also wears adorable, comfortable and trendy outfits that she feels and looks attractive in. (She gets that from me!) I also (in spite of larger breasts) make an effort to dress and act modest. It’s not just about the men though! I respect myself enough to not want people… men, women or my 3rd graders to be able to see right down my blouse.
I’ve taught my son (17) to look away from those Victoria’s Secret ads on TV and avoid the Maxim Calendars in Wal-Mart. Those type of pictures (and the way some women dress) are not the above mentioned “healthy exposure to the human body.” Those photos are designed to be alluring and grab a man’s attention. (Have you ever noticed how these women look like they want to just eat a man?) It’s my responsibility to train my son and help him guard his heart and mind. I do not leave catalogues laying around the house that advertise lingerie or even underwear. It’s simply wisdom and another way I can protect my son and husband.
I think that asking men and women to cover up from armpit to mid-thigh is not too much to ask. This would include seeing a guy’s boxers. While not sexy in any way, it is gross and distracting to me. Ladies, maybe doing the bend-over tests in front of the mirror and allowing and (flat) hand-sized gap between clothing and skin would help you know what is modest. Men, how about working through the need to take every thought captive and finding an accountability partner. Not everyone has had the benefit of training from a godly parent. But I hope that there are some godly men and women in your life who are willing to pour into your lives and mentor you (not judge or condemn you!) If we work together like the Body of Christ should, our unity will bring anointing!! Then, we can move on as one and go about the business of the Body of Christ which is to #1-Love the Lord God with all our hearts and #2-Love our neighbors as ourselves…
Just my thoughts… :)
@Joy Thank you for bringing up the dimension of taste and class in this discussion. Dressing provocatively often is just bad taste and not respectful. Modesty, as I mentioned, has nothing to do with how much flesh is exposed but drawing undue attention to oneself. Women and men should dress modestly because it’s loving to not try to make ourselves center stage. When one dresses to provoke sexual interest it is manipulative and dishonest. These are good reasons to dress appropriately (the definition of modesty – dressing appropriately for the occasion). There are occasions where less clothing is appropriate (swimming, for example). It’s a matter of context and culture.
Lust isn’t about avoiding seeing something that is normally hidden. The human body is not bad or dangerous or shameful or a secret subject. Curiosity about the body is no different than curiosity about all of life. Countless artists, many of them great Christians, have pursued the human body as a topic of exploration and beauty. In fact, nude artwork is an essential part of Western Culture, a culture shaped by the Christian vision.
I think it is unwise to teach anyone to look away from Victoria Secret ads or Maxim magazine covers (or J.C. Penny bra ads for that matter) without giving them a wholesome exposure to the human body and a non-paranoid and affirming attitude towards the body. If you teach what the good is, allowing healthy curiosity to be satisfied, avoid transmitting shame and prurient attitudes, make respect in relationships an important and essential virtue, you will have a better shot at producing sincere, well-adjusted disciples.
I was at an art museum a few years back and we were looking at a colonial American display. The center piece was a large painting of an operation being done on a women that had her breasts exposed. A family came in the room behind us and the mother told the ten year old boy to cover his eyes. The way it was said made me think that this was a routine admonition and I think the family was Christian. I cannot not think of a better way to develop prurient thoughts and attitudes of objectification in this boy.
A love of the arts and a purposeful instruction in a healthy attitude towards the body and value and respect for people are more likely to produce Christians that aren’t interested in or attracted to a Maxim magazine cover. They will see it for what it is – manipulative, anti-human, and disgraceful. And having their curiosity of the body satisfied the magazine will not only have no power of allure, it will seem stupid (and J.C. Penny ads will seem prosaic). In this way they will take every thought into captivity to the knowledge of Christ.
This is all well and good, and I try to be modest myself, but I’m always left frustrated. Christian guys ask for this consideration, but most of them won’t ask out the modest woman who looks dowdy when she stands beside our less modest sisters. So very frustrating . . . but thank you for talking about it anyway.
women show their goods for the sole purpose of showing their goods. it brings them some type of perverted self confidence that they lack
if you show your goods men simply think of you as someone who needs to show their goods – men enjoy your goods but may not want to take you home to meet their mother, the madonna/whore complex
maybe more men should start showing their goods -you know, to even the playing field
Tony – what goods are you referring to? Shoulders, ankles, calves, thighs, butt cheeks, cleavage, entire breast?? Since everyone has a completely different idea of what modesty means maybe you could tell us what it means to you? After all, I have no idea if you would consider me a whore, and we certainly cannot “even the playing field” and determine if men should “show their goods” without a definition.
@ Tony,
Men do “show their goods”. You don’t think a nicely tanned, chiseled bicep gets a woman’s heart racing a little bit? So if the argument is that I as a woman must cover my breasts or my knees or my upper arms or whatever so that men don’t sin–Let’s even the playing field!–and make men wear long sleeved shirts from now on. And jeans that don’t hug the rear. And long pants to cover those strong thighs. And T-shirts when swimming, so I don’t get a glimpse of those ever-so-tempting, of-course-I-will-lust-if-I-see-them, 6-pack abs. (And don’t even try to tell me that you go to the gym 80 hours a week and drink protein shakes instead of eating burritos and benchpress a Sumo wrestler because YOU DON’T WANT ME TO NOTICE.)
By making ALL MEN cover up their bodies, anytime I feel the slightest bit of lust, I can blame it on men for not following the “Christian rules of modesty” or for being the evil tool of Satan in trying to take over my soul (or at least my libido).
Something is tragically wrong with us when the “bits of us” become more important the sum total. In my opinion, we should be talking a lot less about covering up the body and lot more about opening up the heart.
Anne, this has inspired quite the dialogue! :) Pretty fascinating to hear everyone’s thoughts on it so far. I am a fan of feeling beautiful, fashionable, and modest. While I don’t think I am responsible for every thought that enters a man’s mind, I do believe that all 3 things I mentioned above can work together quite nicely really without a terrible amount of restriction or suffering in the process. :)
Perhaps I’ve missed all the church discussion on this that people have tired of because I think it’s great to have it brought into a public forum here! As a fairly newly married woman, it has been incredibly insightful to me to hear my husband’s honest observations on women’s clothing, etc. We are currently living in a very modest (for the most part) Asian culture which he admits is helpful for him.
Honestly, I would think it would be common sense for women to know that if your breasts are hanging out of your tank top, men are going to look. Not because men are terribly perverted but because God has designed us to enjoy sex, and He has given us very wonderful parameters in which to enjoy it. Marriage.
Why would you want to wear a shirt that reveals your breasts? For the attention? To feel attractive? I think it’s important for us to secure our worth in the Lord and allow His truth to define our beauty in order to have conversations like this not become legalistic and circular. Just my opinion :)
I would also offer Paul’s advice when he tells us that everything is permissible, but not everything is beneficial. You can dress quite attractively and still keep your body within your clothes in my opinion. Go to Target :) They’ll help you out.
Wow, I LOVED those comments from the guys – thank you SO MUCH for sharing them. That really hits home, and what a great reminder of how important modesty truly is, especially in a Christian context!
Glancing over the comments, I noticed one topic that has not yet come up much, and that is comfort. I lived in Hawaii for one year, and have since lived in Oregon, where it is generally pretty temperate BUT there is about a 2-3 week period during the summer of absolutely miserable heat. What are women to do during very hot, muggy weather? I recall about two or three summers ago on a particularly broiling day, I was about to go in my non-air-conditioned car to run a few errands, and threw on a tank top and shorts, only to be informed that my outfit was too revealing and that I should change. I did go upstairs to change, but could not help but feel resentful and annoyed. I was only trying to be comfortable, and I was not able to be comfortable because of all this ‘guarding men’s eyes’ business. I was not trying to look seductive, and I usually dress quite modestly, but what is one to do when you live in a hot area, or are experiencing intense summer weather? Really, I’m asking. Please tell me. What should a girl do in a situation like this?
I didn’t really want to read everyone elses comments I just wanted to tell you thanks! I needed to hear what was said about men who really are trying and how even a strap or a peak at cleavage will have even a husband trying to stay pure in though sinning with almost involentary reaction. Although I do like to wear attractive things I find myself putting a saftey pin in the neckline to close some of the v but now looking back I can see it has hardly been enough. I will be trying harder myself – thank you for the different perspective!
Thanks for posting, i was thinking about you the other day. I should just give up and take lessons from you
Sorry for the late reply. New reader!
I’ve always “dressed modestly” (according to others), so it was a shock to some when I became a mommy. My boobs ballooned, and I was determined to both dress “appropriately” for church (read: “wear a dress” because I just can’t wear pants on Sunday morning and skirts make me feel frumpy, which I seriously didn’t need help with at that post-partum time in my life) and still be available to nurse my son (modestly), all while still getting to participate in church activities.
My son was a SLOOOOOOOOOOOWWWWWWW eater, so for those first few months, he was eating every two hours or so for a minimum of 45 min. at a time. If I were to go to our church’s designated “nursing room” (which, btw, has a window in the door, is right next to the drop off point for babies at the nursery (so everyone and their brother can see in), and in which I have NEVER failed to be interrupted by a nursery worker who thinks that the nursing room is for the keeping of their stuff), I might as well just stay home for as much as I would disturb classes and services with my constant leaving and returning.
So I found a few dresses which allowed quick access (my “modest” dresses all either slipped on or zipped up the back, requiring near nakedness in order to nurse – which given the circumstances, I wasn’t willing to do even in the designated nursing room). They were pretty much all v-necked and showed significantly more cleavage than I was used to showing. But then again, my boobs were like five times their normal size, so it didn’t really matter what I wore, I was a freak of nature for a few months.
So a dear, sweet (never married, no kids) “aunt” took me aside and told me that I needed to cover up. Maybe just wear a cami underneath. Something lacy and pretty. So I talked to hubs about it. His response was that the boobs are less lust-inducing than boobs + cami because the cami left the looker the opportunity to stare and ponder what could and couldn’t actually be seen (come to think of it, I’ve done this myself) while the bare cleavage was glanced all, all that was to be seen was seen, and the looker would move on. In terms of dwelling power, the cami was most men’s kryptonite (according to hubs).
When I respectfully informed said “aunt” that I would be submitting to my husband’s authority on the matter (especially given the extenuating circumstances of the nursing), she informed me that he was wrong. So we took an informal poll of our own. I asked the ladies of our Sunday School class (and a few choice others) to discreetly ask their husbands which was worse – boobs alone or boobs + cami. Of those who responded and who were “boob men,” ALL said that wearing the cami was at least as distracting as, if not moreso than the cleavage alone (i.e., hubs was right and I was right to submit to his authority…fancy that!).
Anyway, long story even longer, a) when talking “modesty,” please put nursing mommies in their own category. We’re not trying to do anything other than give the best thing we can to our babies. We can’t do anything about the ginormo-boobs anyway, and 2) in most cases, if you need a cami, the shirt’s just too low-cut. Pick another shirt altogether or do without the cami because you’ll do less damage that way.