Let’s jump into a topic that normally we wouldn’t talk about on here….
Health Care Reform!
Why not?
I realize there is no heath care system that is perfect, however, I’ve had the chance to experience the NHS in the UK when I spent some time in Scotland, and of course, our fabulous health care system here in America. Which don’t get me wrong, I’m grateful to have such a high level of care available so readily.
I enjoyed my Scotland experience. 45 minutes of my time and money out of my pocket? $10 for some medicine (the issue I had would have cost me around $125 here in the States and taken over three days).
However…I am still paying off a $12,000 (after insurance) gall bladder removal from 2006 which I had done in Dallas. We owe just about as much in medical debt as we do on our Isuzu Rodeo. And that is not fun. And I have no idea how much this heart procedure is going to cost even with insurance.
I don’t think any of us can argue our system in the States has its issues, but with so many people from other countries reading this, I’d really like all of your input. Don’t necessarily slam on a country where you’ve never lived or experienced the health care in (no speculation allowed!), but outside of that rule…just roll.
What do you think is good about your health care system? What do you think could change? What do you think MUST change? Do you have a horror story? A hopeful story? How do you think people of faith can get involved to make positive change happen?
——-
Comments
121 responses to “Health Care Reform”
I know some people that had their pregnancy declared a pre-existing condition. Not because she was pregnant when she got the insurance (she had the insurance well before she was pregnant). But because one of her previous pregnancies was a c-section. So insurance would pay for pre-natal and post-natal but not the delivery. So they had to pay for the delivery out of their pocket. They have good insurance, work for a big company and had choice in which health plan. They thought they were picking a good health plan that would cover what they need.
When 60% of bankruptcies involve medical bills and 75% of those have insurance, something is wrong with the system.
i don’t know the answer but i know it needs to change. i had an extremely high risk pregnancy, my baby was born with special needs, was in the NICU for almost 2 months and has been in the hospital 3 more times since birth (she’s now a year old). her situation was nothing genetic, nothing from me- it was just one of those rare medical flukes that could randomly happen to anyone. my husband owns his business and we pay for private health insurance. we now owe around $50,000 in medical bills. it’s ruined our credit and causes huge stress on top of the stress of having our baby girl suffer and dealing with our dreams and hopes for her broken. private health insurance for small business owners in the US stinks.
i think if insurance companies, pharmaceutical companies and medical professionals could work together for the good of humanity, we wouldn’t have a problem here in America. unfortunately they (we) all get blinded by the mighty dollar… buy offs… and providing the bare minimum. thus, leaving Americans either without coverage, or having to sell our first born child to afford it… even before we use it.
if we could get all of that right, then a NHS wouldn’t be necessary. and at least from what i’ve heard from friends in Canada… you get what you pay for.
I believe anyone making healthcare decisions should have to spend at least a month working full time in various facilities to have a clue first.I’ve been in healthcare for 20 yrs and I have seen it misused to gain revenues, underused to save money and special arrangements or free supplies/services given to “high profile” people who CAN afford it, while others have a stroke because they haven’t been able to afford their blood pressure medicine.Fortunately I believe the children in his country are well looked after. From college age up to 65 fall between the cracks due to either unaffordable insurance or the high prices of meds and dental visits. It saddens me as I am forced to see it every day. I don’t think the lawmakers have all had these front-line experiences.
wow, this is a departure! :)
i am grateful that this is not a “raw” issue for Joy and me. we both are blessed to have robust, employer-paid health insurance. we also are blessed to be in good health and our interaction with providers effectively is limited to preventative visits (teeth cleanings, regular eye checks, etc.).
one hope i have for the current reform efforts is that something is implemented that will enhance the appeal of primary care for future physicians. these folks really are the main touch-point with health care for so many, yet the downsides to choosing this arena of medicine are quickly overwhelming the desire many otherwise would have to work as Family Medicine or Internal Medicine docs. the allure of more niche specialties is – understandably – drawing more and more new physicians; many communities go underserved.
I believe anyone making healthcare decisions should have to spend at least a month working full time in various facilities to have a clue first.I’ve been in healthcare for 20 yrs and I have seen it misused to gain revenues, underused to save money and special arrangements or free supplies/services given to “high profile” people who CAN afford it, while others have a stroke because they haven’t been able to afford their blood pressure medicine.Fortunately I believe the children in this country are well looked after. From college age up to 65 fall between the cracks due to either unaffordable insurance or the high prices of meds and dental visits. It saddens me as I am forced to see it every day. I don’t think the lawmakers have all had these front-line experiences. My husband is a quadriplegic and we are blessed to have great coverage while I see others in the same situation ignored.
I think change needs to happen, but going to government control and rationing is the wrong direction. The whole issue could simply be solved by eliminating employer based insurance and allowing health insurance to be sold across state lines. Make it 100% deductible on your taxes or even as a credit.You could buy it just like car insurance and competition would drive prices down. Make the loser pay legal fees in malpractice suits to cut down on frivolous claims, thus lowering doctors costs. Make a government backed high risk insurance program for those who cannot get coverage otherwise.
The vast majority of those uninsured today either have insurance available to them, either via state programs or employers and choose not to pay. Most states have plans for uninsured children.
What we don’t need is a rush job by our all too fallible government.
I agree. Looking at the way government-run schools aren’t exactly thriving….do we really want them in charge of our health care?
.-= RuthintheDesert?s last blog ..This week Praising through the Bible =-.
But I love the way the (TN) gov’t is running my health care. It’s really a great system. No complaints at all. Except for the Rx coverage. :)
I am definitely cool with reform in the sense of lowering cost and making it more readily available to those who want it or need it. There are many solutions that can make this happen, I am not however cool with the Government running health care or telling my doctor when and how they can treat me. I don’t have to see another countries program to know that what is already in the 1,000 page document running through Congress sets our country up for politicians to make decisions for our doctors. America’s health care problems mainly rest with the people who say they want to fix it. The Government mandates that insurance companies cannot sell across state lines, this limits supply and demand, therefore the prices a higher and without competition, monopolies are formed, so through Legislation we are forced to pay higher prices, now they want to “fix” the problems they help cause. I am happy with the insurance and the care I have received in the past, both through normal check-ups and in emergency surgery procedures.
Beyond that, I believe in freedom, and Government mandating health care is not freedom. Fining people for choosing not to have coverage is not freedom. There is much to still be discussed with this issue and I think Washington is moving WAY too fast…personally I have my reasons why, but that has nothing to do with the topic :-)
I know a lot of people are freakin out about this national healthcare reform.
I am really indifferent. I don’t find my “health care” in America and am not reliant on being made well by “health care.” I have to constantly remind myself that I found myself in God (as cheesy as that sounds its true).
I can get pretty worked up, and honestly fearful of what is going to happen if I get sick and have to wait for 3 months to get medicine (at least that is what Shawn Hannity says). I can also get pretty excited that people who have no health care at all can now have a chance to go to the dentist or make that much needed doctors appointment instead of having to suffer with pain and agony because they don’t have health care.
But ultimately, our citizenship is not in a country, or world. Our first allegiance is not to a flag or a man, but to God and his Kingdom. To the redemptive work of Christ on the Cross.
So whatever happens with this bill, I am fine with it. I am not saying that God is going to “affect” the bill one way or another, or that God cares about Republicans agenda rather than democrats. All I am saying is that our home is not this world.
I think it’s an abomination that you can go bankrupt and homeless in the US over health issues. Most other developed nations believe so too. They laugh at us. Because we’re funny. And stupid. And don’t have a social contract of compassion and wellness.
My wife had back surgery in France last summer.
Because it was $30,000 cheaper for the same surgery, including travel and accommodations than to do it here at home.
2009 is going to be the first year in 5 years that we won’t hit our “Out-of-pocket” maximum because of my wife’s back issues, or premature babies, or emergency room visits for concussions.
A co-worker reported today in staff meeting that her sister is losing her job. She has an expensive insulin pump that she’s clueless how she’ll pay for it beyond Aug. 1. Health care tied to your job? The average length of employment at a job in the US is less than 3 years. That means your insurance is constantly in flux.
Our family is currently avoiding the doctor’s office so we can pay down medical debt.
Health Care reform? Yes, please.
Single payer? Yes, please.
We’re all paying for it now anyway. Whether through higher premiums to cover the uninsured or through bankruptcy protection for those with too high of medical bills.
Yes, please.
Medical Cost Sharing…
That is where the fam and I are going.
http://www.samaritanministries.org
Let’s pay for each others needs and share the load.
I think what President Obama is trying to do is ambitious and potentially a great thing. I do not think Abortions should be a covered medical expense, I do think adoption expenses should be covered just like birthing a child is or fertility treatments are covered sometime. So, at least more people would be able to adopt the infants women are considering aborting. I would love to see a complete overhaul of what is currently in existence but I wonder if it’s possible.
Great topic Ann! I can’t wait to see how this one unfolds!
You’ve dipped your toe into the topic skillfully… This is very tough, because I come at it form the provider. The tragedy in this whole discussion is how the insurance companies have taken over the whole thing. They are the ones determining who gets the care today, if you have good coverage and are persistent enough you get care… The current plan from the government won’t change this dynamic. I have a friend of mine that just retired as a Cardiac Heart surgeon, his last surgery was a 3 artery bipass operation with 2 complications that required 2 more surgeries in a 12 hour period. Guess how much me got paid for that surgery? $2500. I’ve heard it’s less today. I’m sorry but I’m not comfortable with the guy saving my life earning less than the guy that sells a new set a rims and tires. We have turned insurance on it’s head. Think about car insurance, you have to buy it to drive a car, but it doesn’t cover your oil change, why should health insurance be any different. A well visit to the doctor could easily cost say $80, what does it cost to have a plumber come to the house?, but nobody wants to pay that, they want their insurance to pay for it, but they have no problem paying $80/month for cable/internet access, what’s more important cable or your health? If insurance was for catastrophic events, this would lower premiums that would allow more money in the budget for regular visits. What if WalMart figured out how to offer flu shots for $10, or kids check ups for $25? We need insurance reform not a complete takeover… There is barely a reason for anyone to take medicine, this takeover will be the final nail, why take on the $300,000 in debt to make less then a plumber…
One of the biggest problems is nearly the complete lack of competition amongst health care providers. It may sound radical, but I say we start by outlawing group policy plans. Group policies make it easier for the provider to just stick it to the individual. Why should they deal with that self-employed guy or the real small business when they have a company with 100+ employees over here looking for a plan.
Group policies are senseless because it’s umbrella coverage for every employee. Can anybody explain why a 25 year old single male needs to have maternity coverage in his plan? Eliminate the monopoly and create a competitive marketplace. Within that framework, there could be a government plan that can supplement others who may have trouble finding a plan because of a pre-existing condition.
I am concerned greatly about a government plan despite assurances it is not a “takeover.” The problem is, the government plan will ‘compete’ against private insurers the way Wal-Mart ‘competes’ with the Mom and Pop store that is up the street. Government plans will cost less than what people are paying for private insurance, and pretty soon you’ll see most people dropping their private plans and going with a government based plan. After time that will create a system like we see in Canada which is a two-tiered system. You have the government program which is inexpensive, but wait times can often be absurd. Because everybody can get government health care, you have to be extremely wealthy to go with a private insurer.
I don’t like to see any of this pushed through for the sake of political expediency. Everybody keeps saying we need to do this NOW NOW NOW, but a few more months of debate and making sure our legislators truly understand what it is they are voting for isn’t going to hurt.
first, this will come across harsh so let me say up front that, on its face, i’m appalled that a family with a $50k medical bill isn’t getting help from a PERSON in the Body of Christ. the caveat is that i don’t know the whole story – and it’s none of my busines either.
i agree with Josh on a lot of the issues – but (OK so stone me) health care, like electricity and water is a priviledge, not a right. it’s debatable whether you need healthcare to actually surive. case in piont is other countries healthcare systems, or actually the lack thereof. many countries have a large increase in population, but they have crappy healthcare (india, for one). people don’t seem to stop having babies becasue there’s a lack of healthcare – it seems to be the opposite.
we USA’ers are totally spoiled brats about a lot of things, and health care is one of them. is affordable health insurance a great thing to have – oh, definitely. but, as a society, have totally confused rights and priviledges in this, and many areas of our lives.
we make choices, have children, eat mickey d’s, tacos, and all that blue bell cookies n cream – drive motorcycles, and cars, mountain climb, and heck even fly – all of these are our choices (underline, exclaimation point)
why should other people pay for our choices – i know that i’m tired of my taxes going up with each new program that someone comes up with
case in pont. the state of minnesota has fairly ‘nationalized’ health care. the waiting list to treat autistic kids (not genetic, not bad habits, simply a terrible infliction) is over three years and by the tome the child is diagnosed at three and waits three years – well, even a doctor knows it’s way too late to really help that child very much
btw – nationalized healthcare in the US is simply a way to have all of us pay for routine, conveniently obtained abortions – don’t be fooled by the talking heads. and the more people that a particular party can sign up under the nationalized plan, the more votes they get because they just took away your choice.
solutins you say? i think the example of teh $50k medical bill above, or Anne’s expensive procedure should be paid for by the Body (you know Christians who are supposed to be giving kinda folks) – we buy the Body food, cars, heck even give retiring pastors a Lincoln SUV sometimes – can’t we pay for a med procedure that’s needed to save a little boy, or a talented young lady?
doug- i beg to differ. my bro in law is a well respected heart surgeon in the South – actually an inventor of robotic heart surgery. he does 300-400 procedures per year and CLEARS over $600k (that’s take home before the IRS takes their 42%)- that’s after his $2mm annual malpractice insurance premium, paying his staff of 5 over $100k each plus full benefits and 401k, office rent, his lawyer on retainer, and CPA – plus his required hours of training every year just to keep his credentials in order
with that said – he doesn’t like insurance companies at all, either – good points
Just wanted to add that Doug makes some excellent points. People always want the plan that is going to be a $20 co-pay to see the doctor or cheap prescription costs. The thing that kills me is that it is often younger people who hardly ever go to the doctor anyway that pay so much for plans that cover those things. Or they don’t want to have the $5000 deductible. When it is a matter of life or death, $5K seems inconsequential. Like Doug was talking about, I know somebody that just the other day dropped $300 like it was 30 cents to have their air conditioning in their home fixed (Florida – hot and humid) but that same person would probably balk at the idea of paying $75 for an annual check-up.
I think as Americans we need to get our priorities in order as well. The culture has slowly morphed into one where it is common for people to want something, want it now and want it cheaply. Unless of course, it’s a new Mac Pro or 1080p HDTV television.
I am very familiar with the billing/coding aspect of the US health care system – my “tent making” is consulting with pediatric offices regarding electronic billing – yep, its broken – to be honest most medical professionals work for the insurance company-much focus is given to how to code a billing properly to ensure payment vs coding properly to accurately reflect what service was performed. Consider this – if you visit your doctor and he/se withdraws blood (exact same procedure regardless if Dr./Nurse does the work) – the coding allows that you can be charged for simply because the doctor has more education/qualification – the logic is it costs more if he/she performs the procedure. In most cases, patients are not allowed more than one “well/physical” visit per year – so if you child needs a checkup to get into school, attend camp, etc. and had a physical within the past year most insurance companies will not cover the cost (unless that medical facility knows the various “tricks” to coding so you can “beat the system”. Oh there is more – but it definitely needs tweaking!!
I personally think it is a great idea. I am a Canadian Citizen and lived in Canada until i was 13. if done right, and i am not saying Canada has it perfect, but things just become taken care of.
The argument i hear all the time is that Canada wont cover certain chemo treatments and/or doesnt allow second opinions….so if something is “terminal” you can not be treated…but with tweaks to that i think it could be successful.
And looking at it from a Social Justice stance i think that it is ridiculous that people dont have health care. Even my husband who worked 40 hours a week for a company that didnt give health care and he was uninsured….that is dumb.
I think it also frees people up to work the jobs that they want to work and not be in fear of needing health care for their spouses and families. I know the only reason i have stayed places is for the health care…its sad, but true.
And the people who are going to “abuse” it and live off of the government already are…medicade is doing it for them, so what is the harm in reformation?
Sorry for the vent…i am clearly passionate.
I have lived outside of the US and utilized a national health care system and hands down the US is better. The government does not belong in health care, anymore than it does in the auto industry. This is not about reform it is more about control, and I do believe the vast majority of us have a better ability to decide what is best for ourselves and our families than government ever could. I hate the thought of folks being penalized 2.5% of their annual take home if they don’t sign up for health care, a business being penalized 8% of their payroll if they don’t get on board. Abortions being funded with tax dollars.. Mandatory end of life counseling. Some politician deciding if my child is worth the tax dollars to treat.
My other issue is those folks who are voting on this bill that is in excess of over 1000 pages right now unfinished and at more than 1.7Trillion unfinished are not reading this bill and are not as someone pointed out in general part of the medical community.
There are ways to reform and not control people’s choices. Government is not the answer, and i don’t think i want those on Capital Hill to make such life and death decisions for my family. My suggestion to all is to read the bill yes it is long, but then we know what is in it. it is HR 3200 Great topic and terrific answers.
I guess maybe since I have it I want to keep it the same. My wife just spent 7 months on dialysis and a week ago had a kidney transplant. Our friend was the donor. With the dialysis and surgery for my wife and friend, we had to pay $100 for everything. My job pays for health insurance.
We adopted our child from foster care, we actually had his step brother for a few months getting ready to adopt him. (didn’t work out and that is a different story) While they were foster children we had to use medical for care. That system is a mess.
In fact not sure how it is in your states, but when you consider medi-Cal, dmv, disability, franchise tax board, IRS…do you really want those people controlling your health care especially with them having access to all of your personal information. Lets just fix the current system instead of creating a new one.
@Tony The heart surgeons I know do very well, your bro-in-law is literally working his tail off, he deserves what he makes, the point is why should any human take the risks to educate themselves til their 36 years old, have to have a mal practice lawyer on retainer and still make $2500 for a life saving procedure… $2500 is probably the low end. So in your scenario your bro-in-law is still getting less than 10% of the total cost of the heart surgery procedure… why does it have to cost $50,000 if the doctor will only get 10%? Why do the insurance companies have the largest buildings in every city? I will agree with the administration that the insurances are corrupt but Government insurance will be no better… I want control of my health care if I choose to help a family out with their medical costs I should be able to do so if I choose…
@ Jay, I agree umbrella group policies need to be eliminated… why can’t i shop around the country for my coverage…. with the $5000 deductible if I choose…
Ok, so I’ve read many comments here. But what I don’t understand is this:
1. Has anybody ever seen the government run a business well? I never have
2. The words “cheap” and “great care” are oxymorons. In the end you’ll get what you pay for and if you only want low premiums, you’ll get substantially poor care. It’s economics 101.
3. USA has great medical care because we reward research and create a place where doctors can be creative and focused. Put the government in charge and where’s the incentive for anybody to excel?
4. Scripture time and time again warns against the law. You cannot legislate things like grace, patience, persistence, love, kindness and so forth. All we’ll have is a bunch of laws trying to make a corrupt system work. IF you don’t believe me check out welfare fraud, or medicare fraud…the government just cannot pull it off.
True story … my husband and I have friends who live in England, Trevor and his wife Pat. Several years ago, Trevor worked at an automobile factory and was diagnosed with a hernia. Rather than go to the doctor, have a laparoscopic hernia repair and be back to work in a few days, the socialized medicine protocol suggested another scenario. The doctor was not able to preform the surgery for a month because of his backlog so Trevor had to take off work for a month to wait for his surgery. The government paid him to stay home and (also!) paid a temp to do his work. This is one of the reasons why the tax rate in England is 40 – 50% for middle to upper wage earners. It’s hard to imagine paying that much in taxes because of inefficiency and government directives.
My husband is in the medical profession. He gives freely of his time and is always willing to help someone out if they are unable to pay. He is not in the minority. Many of his colleagues are the same way and they do it because they feel that it is their calling to help others with the gifts that God has given them. I fear that a government health care system will effectively take this step out. The goal of socialism is for the populace to count on the government instead of God (and God’s people) to help in times of trouble. Where does the bible say our help is supposed to come from?
My husband trained in Louisiana and although the state is not perfect in many ways, they do have a good thing going when it comes to health care. If you are able to work and afford private health insurance, you may choose the doctor that you would like to see. If you are unable to afford private health insurance, you may go to one of the teaching institutions for health care. Yes, you may be inconvenienced by a wait. No, you will not get a private room. However, you will get good health care and you will not be put on a waitlist for a hernia repair that will be a month later.
I truly hope that the American people are educated about what the government is trying to pass so quickly. My fear is that they are more interested in the death of a superstar or what’s happening on the Bachelor to realize that the liberties that our ancestors fought and died for are about to be gone in the blink of an eye.
@Bill Jenkins I heard Dave Ramsey say if you want to look at what Government Health care will look like, look to the fine homes in government housing. Good post.
@doug – on your government housing…in nashville we redid all ours to a “suburban” feel and police calls went from like over 400 a month to less than 10. i dont think local government is such a bad thing.
Bill, you have really hit the nail on the head. My husband has required MUCH medical care. At first, we had insurance to cover everything. For the past several years, we haven’t. Our doctor is still seeing us. The hospital has forgiven a huge bill. Just standing in line at the Dept. of Motor Vehicles should convince anyone that government would not do health care well. Our older parents are concerned that if they need treatment, under the new plan all they would get is pain medication. Our doctor is concerned about being forced to perform abortions against his conscience. Neither the government or the insurance companies deal with individual situations at all well. Remember when hospitals were charitable institutions run mostly by Christian groups?
The perfect fix it seems to me would be for a large part of the insurance industry to disappear. It’s an artifical system that keeps prices high. If there was no insurance, people wouldn’t be able to afford medical care, which would necessitate that prices come down, or doctors and hospitals would go out of business. But as soon as you subsidize something, you give it permission to artifically balloon in price.
The same would happen to any other commodity. If McDonald’s suddenly raised prices beyond what people were willing to pay, they would go out of business…unless there was a savior middleman (fast food insurance) which could subsidize the high cost of hamburgers. Suddenly, there is no reason for McDonalds to lower prices, because there is a safety net.
Get rid of insurance. Let the prices fall into the basement. Subsidize the poorest people who can’t afford anything. It just might be crazy enough to work.
thanks so much for running this post anne. i’m excited to read all the responses (when i get a few). especially from what people in other countries think.
@ Anne, that’s cool, I’m guessing it’s the exception to the rule though…
@Laura, the thing is that most Doctors do what they do because they want to help people, you’d laugh if you knew what my wife made, but she teaches residents and would do it for free, and a majority of docs would do the same, they do it because they love it. I agree with Matt eliminate the Insurance Companies completely and allow the market to reduce the price… WalMart does well as does Nordstrom.
Thanks for this Anne, great discussion
doug – yep, i hear you and the other insurance beaters. insurance co’s are indeed a real issue here
anne – i think you make a fantastic point on locally run subsidized housing efforts
and i think it makes the point that the local guys are held accountable for their actions by ye old locals. and this is exactly why the Feds shouldn’t take over health care and continue to trample on State’s rights. there is so much more at risk here than just ‘health care’
comments on Canada, my compadre Ryam who works in Dallas but retains Maple Leaf citizenship says that it has major problems. but even if not, i really don’t think that Canada has near as many moochers as the lazy US of A does – people there seem to hold themselves accountable better and not abuse systems in general
why create a futher welfare State
“nationalized healthcare in the US is simply a way to have all of us pay for routine, conveniently obtained abortions”
??? Ummm….
I’m Canadian… and I value our public health care greatly. I truthfully don’t understand why there is legitimate hesitation of the American public about it. I watching Michael Moore’s Sicko a while back and was shocked that there were those would philosophically didn’t want free public healthcare.
If the argument is “I’m not paying for someone else’s sickness” then that might be a bit off methinks.
Dave – There’s no such thing as “free” public healthcare.
dave carol – read the bill my friend, read the bill and let me be clear “i don’t think i should pay for someone else’s sickness, now or ever.”
it’s called taking care of oneself in order to take care of others, not letting the govt do it – i retract my nice maple statements from earlier, i was wrong on the moocher issue
tim – sure there is, if someone else pays for it a la Michael Moore
Not too long ago my husband lost his job and hence our health insurance. During the time he was unemployed, through the government’s help, we were able to pay for doctor’s appointments on a sliding scale. I was able to get my yearly mammogram for free. We went on food stamps for a few months. I know we couldn’t have made it without the government’s help those few months. It is great to have this help in times of joblessness BUT when the government is involved in every area of our lives it is truly invasive and not what this country’s principals were founded on. We, the people, are the one’s who need to make the changes…by voting our consciences…by educating ourselves on what we, the voters, are passing for laws in our local, state and federal governments…by holding our elected officials accountable for what they vote on and making sure they are speaking for the majority’s (that’s right, I said *majority*) needs and desires…and if not, fire them!! Remember they work for US not the other way around! From what I can see lately, it is the little squeaky wheels that seem to be running this country and it’s value system not the majority of it’s citizens. Let’s get out there and let this government hear our voices like they should, or don’t complain when it goes to hell in a handbasket!
I am a 50 year old woman married to a 58 year old man with diabetes and other issues. I am also self employed. Between my insurance premium and meds, I am paying about $1500 a month for healthcare. I’m working 60+ hours a week mainly to pay for healthcare. I don’t know what the solution is, but something has to change. If I can’t work, we’ll loose our coverage and never be able to get it again because of the pre-exsisting condition. It seems like there must be a way to regulate the costs and make the system more fair for everyone. People who are self employed and under employed should not have to pay more than people who work for big businesses. It shouldn’t be tied to our jobs. On the other side of the coin, look how well the government runs the DMV… if they can’t even do that without a major hassle, how are they going to keep everything else running smoothly with the healthcare. There’s got to be another way.
My family’s biggest “education” on health care came after about 3/4 of our defense plant in Florida was laid off. Before that, we had decent health benefits, though after the deductibles, we still couldn’t see doctors very often. Even though we didn’t splurge – we never went to Disney all the time we lived Orlando, and almost never ate out.
When the layoffs came, Human Resources told me I’d earned a $337 monthly pension. They said they didn’t want us to go without health care, so they offered us health insurance for “only” $1100 a month. Let’s see, $337 income minus $1100 insurance leaves ??? for food and mortgage. . .
I soon learned my age was against me in finding another job. Few jobs existed then (kind of like now), and pretty much all of those went to applicants in their 20’s – not to anyone over 40, no matter how many places you applied (500 in my case). Finally, over a year later, I got a job as a traveling vendor with a discount chain. I took it because it WAS work, but it never did reduce our bills – just slowed down how fast they piled up. During that time (5 years, plus the 1 before) we lived in a tent trailer. Every week we all had to go to a different city or state (we covered 8 states in all). Later, I got part-time work as an on-call hospital guard, only to switch to fast food when I learned that it actually paid much more. (And you know how “much” that pays.)
But, since that layoff, we have never been able to afford insurance. I’m now on Medicare, which helps immensely, but my wife and kids have never had coverage. We found that just the lowest priced policy for my wife alone would cost more than my pension – and we’ve never been able to come close to affording it. Let alone on the kids.
That’s what bothers us most about the current proposals in the US. We need health insurance – badly. But all the versions I’ve seen will require us to buy policies. How? There’s no way. The “help” provisions I’ve seen don’t cover it. We don’t even have the income to pay the fines if we DON’T buy policies. What will they do, throw most of us seniors or retireds in jail? Seems as if we should expand something that does work, like Medicare (yes, it’s imperfect, but we’d often have had no medical care at all without it). Yes, we might have to pay more taxes to do that – but sometimes “loving and helping our neighbors” means doing exactly that.
Let me finish with one observation. I grew up as a strong conservative. I liked something another strong conservative – Senator Barry Goldwater of Arizona – wrote. He said that to be a conservative is to see what works and stick with that.
Only I don’t see that happening – certainly not among my conservative friends. I see us repeating the past, whether it’s worked or not. I see us ignoring or even fighting things that do work quite well – like your health experience in Scotland. I see us unnecessarily denying health care to a lot of people – seniors, single mothers, handicapped, many others – whom we should be “loving and helping.” And I see us paying little attention to the Bible passages (like Ezekiel 16: 48-50) that tell us God will judge us for that.
I hope we’ll start listening to God – not our talk show hosts.
I have a suspicion that a lot of people can’t afford health care because they don’t prioritize it. Sure they are more than happy to take on a $500 a month car payment, but $300 or $400 for health insurance? No way…that’s MY money. After all IT SHOULD BE THE GOVERNMENT’S JOB! RIGHT?
Linda,
check out the link los put at the top. that is something my husband and i are looking into as my friend shaun has had great success with it.
anne
Reform yes. Renovation no. I’m concerned about the government running everything esp. health care. I’m not confident that they (we?) can pull it off without a great big (bigger!) mess. But reforms are nec. My mom had no insurance for years (long story) and I’m sure she would have gone to the doctor before she got very sick if she had had insurance.
Managed health care is only a very recent phenomenon, although admittedly Europe has been much faster to adopt it in such a full manner as state-funded basic medical care for all. I have a coworker with immediate relatives in Italy who apparently have had to wait for years – yes, years – to have an “elective” surgery performed because of how this type of managed health care works in practice over there. And this story is not just anecdotal, as there are plenty of statistics to show that the quality of health care in Europe is just not as good as the US, even though our prices are quite a bit higher for some of the “basics” like drugs or minor health issues.
I also agree with Kenyon that the primary reason why people even think we need socialized medical care is that they are not willing to spend the money for the highly advanced medical care that is sometimes necessary to keep their loved ones enjoying a higher quality of life, or even alive, in too many cases. Our society values materialism and self-satisfaction more than anything else. We have an entire industry built around nursing homes in this country because we don’t want to take care of our parents and grandparents by ourselves when they are no longer able to care for themselves! People just don’t value their loved ones or their own health like other cultures do.
My position lately has been: health insurance is meant to INSURE us against catastrophic illnesses like cancer, heart attacks, broken bones, and other treatable but major health problems. It should have NEVER been allowed to cover my regular doctor visits for preventative health screening exams. But the insurance companies quickly determined how much more money could be made by having healthier people on their customer lists, and the only way to get healthier people is for them to get more preventative health care before the catastrophic health problems have a chance to become reality. So they eventually found ways to rule over all of our and our doctor’s health care decisions, which is why we find ourselves in the mess we have today. We aren’t in control of our health care decisions (far too often, anyway) – businesses who are interested in monetary gain are in charge. So we, as a society have collectively drifted towards valuing money over life.
I’m so glad you made this open to discussion…I’m in a funny position! My dad is a retired orthopedic surgeon and because of some issues in the past my family doesn’t have health insurance; we’re incredibly blessed to have Mexico a 15 minute drive from where I live so we can get some of the basics covered for 70% cheaper than here in the states. Last year I had a crazy opportunity to work for Obama For America and I was offered full health insurance for 45$ a month and refunds on all my out of pocket expenditures now that I’m off the campaign I had to get on Cobra but its gone up to 300$ a month! I’m a 21 year old student and I CAN’T afford that…2 weeks ago I got offered a position with Organizing For America and once again I can receive way cheaper health insurance but with the organization I get to push for health care reform, a MAJOR plus. I believe we must have health care reform, the right to choose a health plan and doctor and reduce health care costs overall! One thing that I must remind myself is that my trust is in God not a bill passed in Congress or Senate and that the Father will provide!!! but another proactive way of participating is by calling your Legislators and pushing what you believe in, after all they are OUR representatives; just keep in mind that your trust is in GOD! You can find the number to you congressman here…http://advocacy.barackobama.com/healthcare/campaigns/1/scripts/8/call_sessions/new?source=actioncenter
@tassJania:
“I believe we must have health care reform, the right to choose a health plan and doctor and reduce health care costs overall!”
have you even tried to read the health care bill you are so excited about, as you get your cheap insurance for being so excited?
this is by far the most scary post on here
here’s my personal experience from the last couple of days…
I’m getting a bunch of shots for a trip to Kenya in a month. For a few of the shots, I had to go to the Health Department, rather than my regular doctor, which I wasn’t excited for at all. My experience was the exact opposite though of what I expected.
When I visited my regular doctor to get a few shots, I waited in the waiting room for about 15 minutes after my appointment time, then I moved to the exam room, where I waited another 15 minutes for my doctor to show up. She came in and talked to me for less than 5 minutes and then left. Another 5 -10 minutes waiting for the nurse to come with the shots.
At the Health Department, I arrived a little bit early to fill out paperwork. They were able to see me before my appointment time, and the whole experience was just way more enjoyable. Also was in and out in less than half the time it took me at my regular doctor.
I know that a few shots is nothing compared to much bigger deals, but in my one recent experience, I was shocked at how much better my experience was with the government’s health department.
So let’s see….
My husband and I make middle class income.
We have no credit card debt.
Just like…5 or 6k in medical debt.
Before a heart surgery.
Our monthly living expenses are minimal. We live in an 800 sq foot cottage we lease from friends for way under market value.
We have no kids.
Don’t pay for cable. Have the cheapest internet we can find.
Discounted mobile plans because of his work.
One of our cars is about to fall apart. Actually…it is.
And…wait….
I can’t afford to buy freaking health insurance!!!!!!!!!
$700 a month.
That is what we almost pay in rent.
For real.
Maybe when I’m done paying off the hospital who spent 2 hours taking out my gall bladder I can afford some.
So it’s not always a materialistic issue – SOMETIMES IT JUST DOESN’T FIT in the budget.
And sometimes people do need help.
And it’s not a fair way of distributing what we do have. My dad had a 5x bypass and owed $250 and he made over six figures a year. He was in the hospital for days.
I owed $12k after insurance paid, which was almost a third of my SALARY in a year.
jacked
the
frick
up.
Um. Did you really say “Jacked the frick up?” ….
lol Funny.
.-= Reese?s last blog .."New Year’s Revolution" =-.
As far as the healthcare thing, I’ll try to keep it short. It’s actually something I’m rather passionate about now for many reasons. I’m Canadian – born and raised, 30 years old. I lived in the States from the time I was 18 until I was 26 so 8 years. So I’ve experienced both sides of it.
I don’t think our (Canadian) system is perfect. By any stretch. But it’s moral and it’s right and we run a pretty darn good system. There is no one between me and my doctor. I get procedures when I need them. I haven’t experienced unreal wait times or anything. I chose my doctor. Almost everything is covered including a home birth or midwife or chiropractor etc. It’s not just old-school medicine or doctors. I find our system more focused on health and preventative care. And don’t even get me started on the inhumane treatment of mothers and children behind your maternity leaves! I get 12 months off here after my babies, with benefits and pay, to encourage bonding, breastfeeding etc. Meanwhile, the American mothers have to leave their 8 week old babies at the daycare centre. So much for family values! My husband (born and raised American in the heartland) is appalled by it and often remarks that for a nation that talks so much about family values, their legislation sure doesn’t prove it with healthcare and maternity leaves etc.
The big thing I notice is that the quality of care is phenomenal here. When I was in the States, I suffered a couple of miscarriages. The care that we received was one of many reasons we moved back home. Once I wasn’t a cash cow any longer to the system, I was persona nongrata. On the other hand, because money isn’t a factor in my care, when I had another miscarriage here, I went to emergency, got in fairly quickly and then had the doctor sit with us for a good while, explaining, consoling, crying with us. Every nurse gave me such love and compassion and TIME. It was amazing. Then when I had my two babies finally, we received excellent care. No one pushing for c-sections, no thoughts of liabilities or anything. Just what is best for the mother and the baby. Very pro-breastfeeding etc. All of my grandparents have passed and their end-of-life care was phenomenal – humane, gentle, kind and comprehensive. My mother just found a lump in her breast and she is having it removed today already. We get referrals easily.
The big thing for me isn’t even things like those. Those details are what has everyone in the States up in arms evidently. Most of what you are hearing is propoganda, to be honest.
But those are the details that eventually work themselves out if you’re committed to the end result – healthcare for everyone. Rather it’s about the moral issue of healthcare.
If you really believe that it is a pro-life issue – like I do – then you will find a way to make it work. The first iterations might not look fabulous but it evolves.
A quick story and I’m done. :-) This is a lot for 8AM and two kids around my feet! Our system actually had its origins in a born-again small town pastor in Saskatchewan (which is just north of your North Dakota). In the 60s, he saw the toll of the profit system of the least of these, the poorest and the hard working middle class. He organized and eventually ran for government and put in universal healthcare in their province. It was a huge deal and the doctors even went on strike for a piece. But it calmed down once everyone saw how well it worked and suddenly it spread across the entire nation. We had a national contest that really captured the imagination of the country to choose the Greatest Canadian. The guy that won was Tommy Douglas – that small town prairie preacher.
Everyone realised that it is the best thing for all of us. Even the pragmatists and conservatives realized that it’s in my best interest for more people to be healthy – because then they go to work! Same thing with education – it’s in my best interest for people to be well-educated and healthy, right? Ultimately, we say we care so much for the unborn but why does that care cease as soon as they are walking around?
No one should profit from the health of a person.
No one should profit from anyone else’s misfortune; in my opinion that completely goes against the message of Jesus.
@Emerging Mummy – WOW. thank you. that is one of the most well thought out and objective comments.
ever.
It’s funny how the folks with health care seem to be the most vocal opponents of changing the system.
It’s funny how the folks without health care seem to be the most vocal proponents of changing the system.
Well, actually it’s not that funny.
I agree with all of Anne’s last comment except I would replace “ri” with “u”
My suspicion is that alot of people choose not to buy health insurance either because of the lifestyle change it would require or that it is not important to them. After having said that (twice now) I believe that the health care system does need renovation. There are several areas of culpability all of which have been touched on, but two primary concerns from my perspective. 1. The insurance companies. 2. The legal system and correlating liability passed onto health care providers (this is the one area where I believe we can make the most bang for our buck. Simple legal reforms to limit medical liability and protect ALL health care providers from ridiculous legal disputes. Keep in mind that the majority of elected representatives are lawyers and just take a look at any towns legal directory and tell me how they make their bucks, or watch daytime TV for 5 minutes SICKENING!) Bottom line: TORT REFORM IS WHERE ITS AT.
Health care is…
*not more important than the true basic needs of food and shelter.
*not free. Never was, never meant to be, never should be.
*available in the U.S. While there may be rare exceptions, no one here is denied care. Constantly packed emergency rooms and clinics prove that.
*very, very good in the U.S. It’s a fact that people travel here to receive services.
*more expensive than it should be. This can be fixed.
*none of the government’s business! It’s a free market issue and the government should stay out of it! The government was not designed to supply the people health care and it’s not their place to interfere.
*something that is going to suffer greatly for all of us both in quality of care and financially if the government tries to take it over and burdens us with taxes to pay for it and starts to determine what procedures we can have and what medicine we can take.
Jeez, does anyone acknowledge that the excellent health care we can receive today hasn’t always existed and yet somehow generations upon generations upon generations upon generations survived and thrived? In other words, stop whining about health care and be part of the solution to help lower costs without allowing the government to take it over!!!!!!!!!!!!!
As for the link @loswhit posted, I just urge caution with something like that. Why? Because there are people who would go to any lengths to rip other people off. They have no shame and I have no doubt at all, that there will be people who try to take advantage of something like that in a fraudulent manner.
I will be praying for those who choose that route and who knows? Maybe I will do so as well. I just ask people to be diligent in checking these things out constantly, even after signing up.
I was born and raised in the UK and lived there until 3 years ago.
People complain about the NHS there but I never experienced any real problems…… Until I knew someone who really needed treatment.
Lets see… My Grandma needed a knee replacement. It was free, she just had to wait 2-3 years for it. Then she got put on the waiting list for the other knee… another 2-3 years (yes, they would only do one at a time)
My father has been diagnosed with prostate cancer. It’s been 6 months already and he’s still waiting for an appointment with the surgeon. At that appointment, the surgeon will schedule a date for surgery – which will probably be 3 months further down the line. That one surgeon is the only surgeon who does prostate removals anywhere in the area – and he serves around a million people.
Then we come here and we can get immediate health care – if we can pay for it. We’re blessed to have good health insurance (and health) Our relatives in town are not so blessed.
One of the problems they have here is the ridiculous amount they pay healthcare workers. I know, my wife is a nurse. She now earns four times what she earned in England and it’s just crazy. In England she probably wasn’t paid enough. Here she’s paid too much.
Then you have the problem of abusing the system. Some people on Medi-cal just completely abuse the system in a way that people just don’t do in England. For example:
1) There are people who take their entire family to the ER IN AN AMBULANCE because they have runny noses. Seriously. Then they do the same the next day because they haven’t gotten better yet. Costs them nothing. Costs the rest of us a lot!
2) There are people who will take their children into the ER because their child refuses to take some tylenol and they go in just to ask a doctor or nurse to make their child take it. Seriously.
3) There are people who go to the out of town casino and gamble away all their money then call an ambulance for a free ride back to town. They arrive at the ER, sign in then immediately sign out and make their way home.
If healthcare is nationalized here, a lot of thought and planning needs to go into it. Otherwise the system will be abused and will become bankrupt before Obama has even finished his term in office.
@jay – my friend shaun groves has been using them for a while. their son got very very sick and hospitalized and had a very large medical bill which was taken care of with no issues. my husband and i are really prayerfully considering that option for our needs.
I left a job in education to work for my church, knowing that it would cost me in benefits and salary. God’s provided every step of the way.
However, the system stinks. Here’s my predicament: I have private pay insurance for myself, to the tune of $400 per month. Adding my kids to this policy would take up one third of my monthly paycheck. Because of my salary (working in ministry), we just inch under the financial requirements for Medicare assistance for kids – not for me, just my kids. Although I hate that my neighbors are paying for my kids’ health care, that’s the way it has to be for now.
I was offered a raise last year. And the year before. And neither time could I take it, because running the numbers made it obvious that it would put me over the qualifying line for health insurance for the kids, in which case I’d end up private-paying their policies, which would eat up over a third of my monthly income.
I can’t get ahead. I can’t catch up. I’m stuck.
I’m grateful that it works the way it does – which is EXCELLENT for my children. No complaints, great doctors, excellent service. I just wish I COULD pay for it. The system is skewed. I’m hoping that we can find a middle ground.
Anne,
As always, thank you for putting such a discussion on your site. All too often we as Christ followers fall victim to politicizing these issues and not thinking biblically as we should.
I tend to believe the following about the health care reform debate:
1. Government has no place in dictating who is and who is not eligible to receive care. That is one of the most personal decisions an individual has and it is nowhere in the Constitution that the government has any say in my medical care decisions. See this link for what could possibly be coming should this legislation pass as it is currently written: http://bit.ly/sngD6. President Obama himself told a questioner during a town hall meeting that her mother would probably have been better off taking pain killers rather than having a pace maker installed at her age (100). The woman is now 105 and has a wonderful quality of life. Under the new bill’s guidelines, it’s highly unlikely this woman would have received that care and would have been relegated to taking pain medicine until she died. I hope that wouldn’t happen, but since he said that was likely, I’ll take him at his word.
2. No one in their right mind could rightly say that health care costs do not need to be addressed and brought under control. In my opinion, the way to handle this is two-fold: 1.) Make health insurance the same as car insurance. Right now, you can only purchase health insurance from those licensed to do so within your state. Since some states have a ridiculous amount of mandates, there might only be one or two providers in your state. Of course this is going to drive costs up. Allow competition and the free market to work. 2.) Place a cap on malpractice lawsuits. Part of the reason costs are so high in the US is because doctors order multiple tests so that they’ll be covered in court should they ever be sued. A lot of these lawsuits (not all, of course) are frivolous but since there are no caps, it’s worth it for someone to try to get what they can out of the doctor, whether he/she was at fault or not. Unfortunately, there is nothing in this current bill that would place these types of caps on these lawsuits. I guess that would cause a particular party to lose the support of trial lawyers who currently profit immensely from these types of court cases.
Ultimately, the discussion is not about health care; it is about health care insurance. I agree with those have mentioned that the way for those, especially within the church, to be covered against drastic costs that could cause them to have to choose between food and health care is for the church to step up. It’s very easy for those who have insurance to balk at the idea of any kind of reform. Yet is also easy for those who do not have it to be willing to accept any sort of reform regardless of how many freedoms are eroded in the process. In the end, insured or uninsured, the Body of Christ should care for one another.
Currently, my wife and I are insured but are exploring ministries such as Samaritan’s Ministries, as well. Any other references on these types of ministries are appreciated.
Sorry for the long comment. Anne, thanks again for your willingness to out forth such volatile issues for us to think through biblically.
I live in Canada, and while the free health-care is great, the waiting sucks BIG TIME!
6-8 hour waits in the emergency room are common, and don’t even try to book a surgery in the next year.
Just my opinion.
@wonderdog…waits like that are very VERY common here in ERs. i had possible appendicitis and had a six hour wait before being seen. 14 hours total in the ER.
Wow. Lots of passionate, well-thought responses here from “both sides.” I applaud everyone who has contributed to this discussion. You have stretched my thinking immensely.
As a conservative liberal, or a liberal conservative, I can?t remember which, I often have to answer to my friends who call me a socialist (I?m sure in the best most loving meaning of that word) about my views in favor of national health insurance. I?ve been through cancer and recognize, especially in this current environment , so many who are vulnerable to an untimely disease, injury or necessary surgery.
I?m talking about providing catastrophic coverage for major illness and injury. I?m not for abandoning personal responsibility but am for providing help for those who currently don?t have access to the health care system or truly can?t afford it. I?ve gone through a major illness, thankfully I had insurance, but I?ve seen what half million dollars of medical bills looks like. I?ve gotten bills for one drug that cost $36 thousand dollars. Yes, we had insurance but we were still devastated by our portion of the payments. No father or mother should have to collect money in a milk carton on the counter at the mini mart to pay for their child?s life saving operation. You?ve seen it, put yourself in their place and feel how their heart breaks.
What about the unemployed, the uninsurable, and those whose employers can?t afford to provide coverage. What about the undereducated who can?t understand the legalese of an insurance contract and the poor who can?t afford it.
I?m fortunate I grew up at a time and in a town where neighbors were really neighbors. Where Baptist and St Thomas Hospitals were really that, a ministry of the church, and not a member of the ?yadda yadda health system?. Times have changed and as a society we?ve pulled back from helping each other and a gap has opened where previously there were families, charities, churches and generous individuals.
Government does that things that individuals can?t do alone or in this case won?t, e.g. build roads, defend us, provide courts and laws. Sadly, there is a hole there that needs to be filled and in a compassionate society the void left by others may need to be filled by government.
?Am I my brother?s keeper??, yes in my humble opinion, but I treat him like a brother, provide support and a safety net, not make it profitable for him to be sick. I wish there was a better alternative than for the government to be involved but I don?t see one.
Interesting discussion Anne. Here is my 2 cents. My family (me-43, husband-43, 2 teenagers -17 &15) have what is called a High Deductible Health Insurance plan, which is combined with a Health Savings Account.
For our family of 4 we pay about $270.00 per month for the insurance and have a family deductible of 5,000.00. This means that any one of our family can meet the deductible (or any combination), after the deductible is met, we are covered at 100% of covered charges. When we have a medical bill to pay, I put the money for the bill in our HSA account and pay it from there. That money is then exempt from Federal income tax.
We have it mainly for a major medical situation (broken arm, hospitalization, etc) because we know our out of pocket is capped and because of the added tax benefits. Other advantages in having the insurance is that we pay the amount after the network discount, I don’t have to keep track of which family member has met their deductible, and that everything including medication goes towards meeting the deductible.
My out of pocket costs if I were to meet the 5k deductible is less than $685.00 per month. Prior to going on this insurance 5 years ago, my group insurance costed me $735.00 per month when the company I worked for closed, and that was prior to any of my own out of pocket expenses (meeting deductible). Only once in the last 5 years have we actually met the deductible and that was because my husband had to have hernia surgery.
I know it is not perfect, but for our family it works. It puts us more in control of our costs and I don’t feel like I am paying for unnecessary coverage.
Thanks for opening up the discussion.
Look at these population statistics:
Germany 82,369,552
United Kingdom 60,943,912
Canada 33, 212,696
United States 304,059,724
A public health insurance system would be the biggest government program ever. I don’t know if there are any good human answers to the mess we are in with healthcare. We could pray for knowledge, understanding, and wisdom–we could also ask God to make good out of the evil that is coming against many people. In fact, prayer may be our only way out because if the health system collapses, God will be our only answer.
60+ Comments later.. Here I am.
I don’t think that there is a “perfect” health care system in the world. There will always be problems and people will always find something to complain about. However, something needs to be done with the system we have in America. Whether or not you feel that universal health care is the solution or you don’t, no one can deny we’ve got problems.
I always find it the people who are opposed to reforming the health care system, seem to be the people who have been very blessed with no medical problems and who haven’t necessarily been through an ordeal where they had to undergoe surgery that resulted in thousand of dollars of debt WITH insurance. Now before people think I am generalizing everyone into a specific category (which I am trying to avoid) I strongly believe that those people have never been on the other side of the fence tend to judge those who can’t seem to afford insurance (or those who can’t afford adequate insurance) , as lazy people who refuse to work or they are druggies who take advantage of welfare,etc. and who would ultimately abuse the health care system (And we all know that we don’t want our taxes increased to support that lifestyle RIGHT?)
My mother filed for bankruptcy last year to pay off all of her medical bills (which where well over 100,000+ dollars, she’s had multiple surgeries the passed few years due to various things) and she works FULL time, actually sometimes 12 hours a day and also has insurance. She’s not lazy. She works hard. Sometimes people just can’t afford insurance because their salary + plus insurance ratio is out of this world ridiculous.
Now there are lazy people out there who do abuse the system. They exist, I’m not denying that. But there are also people who desperately need it who don’t. If me paying extra taxes means that someones life will be saved/helped, then do it! If the government starts regulating the price of health insurance, so be it! Its not socialism, it’s compassion folks! We should help one another as brothers and sisters in Christ no matter what type of lifestyle they live, no matter how much money they make or if they are addicted to drugs and if that means we have to sacrifice a little bit more of our money to help those, then we should be more than willing to step up and do so. How can we honestly say that we are sharing God’s love when we ultimately fight acts that would only benefit not just ourselves, but everyone?
mmm … sure looks like this is a hot, sensitive, important topic for us as ministry leaders … maybe we need to put this issue closer to the top of the list of things that the church needs to weigh in on and address …
1)absolutely noone in the US sits around and talks about how they can’t wait to get their hands on the great canadian health care system – or absolutely any oher product or service canada has to offer – a BMW, Porsche, Audi, Sony, Samsung, LG yes – a canadian product no
2)if the Canadian health care system is so great why have not other countries adopted it as their model? they haven’t and there’s a reason why – it don’t work to dern well
3) this has absolutely nothing to do with compassion folks – it has to do with your rights in the USofA, which a Canadian does not, and never will have. If I wanted soicalism, i’d move to Quebec or France
4) so, it’s compassionate to kill unborn children under the guise of the great socialist experiment with our govt.? i say absolutely not
5) if you scream the compassion argument, or the ‘you can afford health care argument’ think of this – why should compassion be shown to a sick person when we kill off totally innocent children by the 1,000’s – hmmm, i guess your special interest person is way more important. the compassion argument is straight out of the poli sci 101 ‘how to get more votes by pulling on their heartstring, but push my abortion agenda’ chapter
6) anne – i hear you on the $’s, but I think if you look back a bit you may have to at least acknowledge that we all make choices, and many times those choices get us to where we are. it may be your frustration coming through the faith garment – and understandably so – but, please keep the faith! my prayer is that at the end of this challenge you will have a miracle (financial, healing, love, etc) story to blog about!
Anne;
Another Canadian chiming in. A woman in my community has become a media spokesperson in your country opposing socialized medicine. She went to the US to get treatment that she was not able to get here in the way she wanted to. She is now sueing our gov’t to be reimbursed for the expense of having that treatment.
Her experience is by far the exception.
The large majority of Canadians receive excellent health care, delivered in a timely fashion, and at a reasonable (tax-based) cost. We supplement with insurance for things like dental, massage therapy, physio, etc. Most of us have had bad experiences at some point; wait times are a very real issue and there is a shortage of family doctors in many communities.
It is appalling that so many Americans go bankrupt because of necessary medical bills. It is disgusting that people have to postpone needed treatment until they can afford it.
Time I’ve spent in Latin and South America has shown me that the flaws in our system (which require attention) are worthwhile. Years ago I was walking down the street with my host in the Bastion Populaire slums outside of Guayaquil, Ecuador and she told me about the cataracts that were slowly blinding her, making it uncertain if she would be able to see when her small daughter grows up to marry and have her own family. She told me the cost of the surgery in Guayaquil and asked what it would cost in Canada. I didn’t know; because here it would cost me nothing more than what I already pay in my taxes.
Obama’s plan is sure to have significant flaws, but it is a starting point for hope for those in need.
one more thought; the US gov’t already administers what I understand is an excellent medical program for military personnel; you’re not starting from scratch here
and I haven’t heard any clamor for it to be scrapped
i’m sure i’ll have a miracle to blog about at some point. unfortunately none of the choices i’ve made in my life developed an extra pathway in my heart outside of my control or caused my gallbladder to stop working. i am choosing to become self employed and work out my own insurance but i think it is absolutely ridiculous to let something as stupid as health insurance be a factor in deciding what i will and can do. american dream…yeah. i’m one of the few that can actually pull the trigger and follow my heart but the biggest issue we face is insurance.
@anne – but it’s a choice, that’s all i’m saying. at least you have that choice, most people in the world do not.
What a variety of comments! May I just make a few more remarks? Have an honest, frank, forthright talk and still be friends? Hope so.
1. A few of you believe all we have to do is prioritize, and we’ll be able to afford health insurance. Not true of a great many of us, who also are hardworking and honest. In our case: A mostly fixed income. No car payments (a 16 year old car with 220,000 miles). No cable TV. No air conditioning. No eating out. No beds (right, no beds, just air mattresses, which keep getting punctured and which we have to patch about every other night). Where are we supposed to “reprioritize” and find the $700 to $800 it would cost us for insurance for my wife and our two kids?
2. Most of us can only get medical insurance through work, and many of us can no longer get it there – or the deductibles mean it’s not much help. As far as I can see, that means, like it or not, the ONLY alternative is a government program. I hear “that’s not government’s job. As far as I can see, it’s either our employers’ job or the government’s. There’s no one else for most of us. And employers are steadily dropping it. Leaving….?
3. I also hear “too much bureaucracy.” May I just say – I’ve worked in defense contracting. The complexity there is incredible. Certainly, government medical care can be no worse; probably less so. And, so far, I’ve never heard anyone (liberal or conservative) say “let’s not have a defense program. There’s too much bureaucracy.” No. We support defense because we need it. Shouldn’t that be our attitute toward health care (ours and our “neighbors”) too?
4. I’ve just, finally, managed to arrange surgery for my wife on several suspicious growths, especially one inside her tongue. That one popped up about 5 months ago. We didn’t want to wait, but didn’t have money to take her anywhere we trusted. (That would have meant two or three overnight trips to Ogden, Utah, 200 miles away, and since we usually had about $10 left in our bank account every payday, that wouldn’t cut it. $10 isn’t enough.)
We didn’t trust our local hospital much, for many reasons. One was that I worked there as a guard and saw so many incredibly bad doctor’s decisions – (like the one who refused to believe a patient had actually swallowed a dagger; wouldn’t X-ray to check; and finally found it a couple days later when he did X-Rays to see if the patient’s stomach pain was from appendicitis.) One example of many.
That didn’t endear us to the doctors here. But finally, this month, 5 months later, we felt we had no choice, and went there. We THINK we’ll get approved for a free hospital program, and the surgeon gave us a low fee, which my son paid. We don’t know the results yet; the pathology report isn’t in yet. But that much is done.
In closing let me ask: how would YOU feel if your wife, or husband, or child, had a potentially lethal growth, and your could not get it checked for five months? How many of those times would it turn out to be bad? Would you ask your neighbors to risk that? Yet isn’t that exactly what we’re doing now?
We do need, at the very least, to provide realistic insurance and health care for those who can’t get it through work. And it’s NOT a bit workable for many, many people to say “you just have to buy a policy,” like you do car insurance.” What do we do then – dispense with even the air mattresses when they get too full of holes?
Love you all. Let’s all love each other.
I appreciate Emerging Mummy’s comments, as a Canadian, she has helped me appreciate what we have even further. I also appreciate having had the opportunity to read everyone else’s comments, I have learned a lot from them.
As a Canadian contemplating a move to the United States (husband’s job transfer), the health care system in the U.S. is one of the factors we’re struggling with in our decision.
When it was discovered that I had a form of uterine cancer and that treatment was failing, it took months to finally get the surgery that would remove my uterus and help me live. I wasn’t sure if I would live long enough to get the surgery. Due in part to the long wait time, the surgery ended up being very complicated, it was a miracle I pulled through.
When my mother-in-law started having severe, debilitating pains in her abdomen, her doctors told her it was all in her head, ignored her issues, and sent her home. For the next 18 months, they prescribed her painkillers and sent her home without investigating the issue. She lost a third of her body weight, could no longer eat or eliminate, and yet all they’d do was increase her dose of painkillers, pat her on the head and say it was all in her head. After seeing several doctors, she finally found one who would take the issue seriously, but it was too late. That day, they discovered that the cause of 18 months worth of pain was a twisted bowel, which had died off and gangrene had set in. They immediately rushed her into surgery as my husband booked a flight to be by her side. She passed away shortly after surgery, minutes after my husband’s flight left. Gangrene. In 2002. 18 months worth of pain and suffering, ignored. Welcome to Canada.
Would a U.S. doctor, fearing malpractice suits, have ignored their patient for 18 months? Would the health care have been better, prompt, and sufficient for her? We don’t know, but we wonder.
We can afford health care costs here. We buy an additional health care plan through our employers, the rates are very affordable, and the coverage is fantastic…. but at what cost? Our lives?
Then, there are folks like my mom, also Canadian, living in Canada, who also ended up with a twisted bowel, was admitted to the hospital, and once her heart was stable enough to operate (she has congestive heart failure), they operated on her… all within a week. She received fantastic care from the doctors and most of the nurses. Imagine how my husband felt, knowing that this is how it should have happened with his mom, but because of the level of care in her area and her many doctors’ incompetence, her outcome was death.
I think that lack of competition for health care plans in the U.S. plays a large part in it. Here, there is little competition for utilities and services, so the prices are very high… in the states, the utilities and services with many competitors end up driving the costs down. Perhaps it would be better with more competition for health care plan costs. I don’t know.
I’m not sure I agree with the Canadian health care system, I’m not sure if I agree with the US health care system… they each have their own complex problems and issues. Perhaps I agree most of all with the Amish health care system…
Such a complex issue…
I’m Canadian so I’m not 100% up to date on the happenings, but my American Grandma was explaining that what America’s thinkin of bringing in is a healthcare system similar to Canada’s.
So here are my thoughts: Yes, it sucks that a lot of American people have debt due to the health care they have needed. Debt is crummy and stressful. In light of that, free healthcare seems very appealing.
Here are some of the not good things about free healthcare:
-free healthcare means the people of America will be paying heavier taxes.
-privately owned healthcare places, in contrast to state-run hospitals, tend to have higher standards – because they have to be good businesspeople and not kill their customers. State run hospitals will not suffer detriment if their patients die at a higher rate.
-the people of America will be relying more and more on the government to take care of them. This feeds the epidemic lack of personal responsibility.
-more government involvement in peoples’ day-to-day lives means one step closer to communism.
Reading some of these comments makes me sick. Some people seem to be spouting off religious right talking points and ignoring anyone with real knowledge of the services.
No one is forcing anyone to perform an abortion. It’s absurd to think that. But, yes, women will have that covered if they *choose* to go that route. Believe it or not, it is legal to have an abortion in this country.
Would the health care system suffer? There will be kinks, but here’s one thing to note: If you look at which hospitals routinely provide the best service and best care, it’s the Veterans Affairs hospitals. Completely government run. It’s nice that our troops get good care. Now, let’s give that to other Americans.
If you don’t want that, fine. No one is forcing you to leave your private insurer. But the competition will keep private costs down, and it will allow people who can’t afford private care or who have lost their jobs to get help, too.
You don’t think the government runs services well? Have you ever been a post office? Do you have a local fire department? Police department? We all pay taxes for those systems whether we use them or not. I don’t see anyone arguing for privatizing police…
I also don’t see anyone here suggesting we have a Christian-only fire department, but somehow it’s ok to do that when it comes to insurance? What’s that all about? What is it about Christians that makes them not care about anyone but themselves? What happened to helping your fellow man?
Will there be lines for services? In some cases, yes, but you don’t have to be in that line if you choose to go the private route. It’ll take time to work out the kinks. Some of you are telling anecdotes about how someone died in a country with government-run healthcare. Don’t get swayed by a few stories. I could find examples of countless times when someone died in private hospitals today. Does that mean we shouldn’t have those either?
I know I’m in the minority as an atheist, here, but some of what you’re saying makes very little sense. I thought you guys were Christians and you wanted to help other people. Why are you ok with millions of people not getting any help whatsoever with the current system? Why aren’t you taking a lead in getting this reform passed?
Oh, boy. This is a tough one. The whole medical care issue is close to our humanity because it involved our health and our money! .. I have to say I wouldn’t know how I would feel, if we didn’t have great insurance through work. I grew up in a single parent family with no health insurance. And I was afraid everytime I heard my sister cough, because I knew we couldn’t afford to go see the doctor. It was a fearful part of my childhood that I still have shadows lingering from.
It is easy to say healthcare is a privilege and not a right until you take that position to it’s logical conclusion – that a person who is hit by a car, gets cancer, or needs heart surgery and doesn’t have healthcare, dies. I have lived in a 3rd world country, and this is how it works. If you are not ok with that approach, then you believe healthcare is a right not a privilege.
…good topic Anne. I shared recently on it myself and a little experience I had.
http://kenstoll.wordpress.com/2009/06/23/no-im-not-a-democrat/
@Hemant – “You don?t think the government runs services well? Have you ever been a post office? Do you have a local fire department? Police department? We all pay taxes for those systems whether we use them or not. I don?t see anyone arguing for privatizing police”
let’s take these in order 1) the US postal system has been operating in the red for over 20 yrs, and therefore is subsidized by US taxpayers on top of you paying for postal services out of pocket – sound familiar?
2)the key word in your examples of fire and police is the word ‘local’ – that’s why they do work well. try the TSA or Amtrack – both disasters, in my opinion
As far as the Christian right hating their fellow man, that’s a worn out, old argument that holds no water whatsoever so I will adress it.
First, if you read all of the posts above in favor of not socializing health care, there is not a sinlge one that says ‘to hell with my fellow man’. each and every one of them state that, although they dislike the idea, that Christians should take up the slack and help their fellow man – try another worn out argument about the Body and Bride of Christ – that one is totally foolish.
uh, as I have said in 3 of my previous posts – read the frikken bill. it is very easy to see, as over 30 Congressmen have pointed out, that one of even the Dem parties greatest concerns is the abortion issue. regardless of your stance on the abortion issue, it is a political bombshell for the Dems to raise taxes on the wealthy to pay for across the board abortions as a cosmetic procedure – plus you have the whole State’s rights issue on top of that.
yep – even us lunatic right wing Christians know abortion is legal in the US, duh
we also know that we hate it and will fight it – that’s why I am not taking the lead in getting socialism in the form of reform passed.
i do agree w/ one thing you said though and that is, people die in private hospitals. people die period, always (with a few notable exceptions) – and our culture is totally obsessed w/ spending billions of $’s trying to stay alive
so why do we want to kill babies so badly, maybe you can shed some light on that as an atheist
@KC – i’m absolutely, totally OK with that approach. 1,000 yrs ago people died all the time from falling off camels – what’s the big deal now? are we that much of a narcisitic society that we must attain immortality?
All of these comments are interesting and people on both sides of the issue have made valid points. Obviously our system is flawed, that is the hard, cold fact. But first I have to respond to Hemant – have you been in a VA hospital lately? Because if you have and still think the healthcare offered is stellar, then I’m really, really scared. I live in a military town, 5 bases, world class BAMC burn unit and a VA hospital that is NOTORIOUS for being the worst place to seek care – MANY vets will use their Tricare policy and pay additional costs just to avoid it, even though they could go there for FREE.
I’m concerned that so many people seem to think that doctors are out to get them. There are many doctors who focus too much on the almighty dollar and have huge egos and terrible bedside manners, but there are more who are kind and extremely concerned about patient care. They are the ones who are continually frustrated when insurance companies dictate how to treat patients. They are also worried about lawsuits because it only takes one to devastate them, not just financially but emotionally. And please remember, MANY lawsuits are frivolous. So doctors order expensive tests “just in case” because if they don’t, we all know that even the nicest of patients will file a lawsuit.
In my role as a practice administrator, I face new hurdles on a daily basis. Privacy laws, OSHA, insurance denials for legitimate care, angry patients complaining that they have to pay a $25 co-pay (after stating they have no money while talking on their i-Phone…..), finding qualified and compassionate staff and assisting doctors who are stressed and over-worked trying to pay all of the overhead and liability insurance and keep their patients’ well-being as the focus of their attention. All in all they do a fairly good job. Our patients usually get right in, and are treated kindly by all staff members. We routinely get thank you letters because of the care we dispense. We offer budget billing plans and prompt pay discounts but the state insurance commission RESTRICTS discounts, often we cannot give a patient a discount without extensive financial documentation that proves financial hardship.
Anne, I understand your frustration with the payments for gall bladder surgery. I had to pay over $7000 after insurance for a kidney stone procedure. I was not happy about it but I made monthly payments, which the doctor was happy to accept. Most facilities and physicians will accept payments, but remember $10 a month is about what it costs in labor and supplies just to mail you a statement. It isn’t cheap!
We need help with catastrophic health care. No county hospital will turn you away for non-payment. So in a sense, we already have assistance with our healthcare, it’s just that everyone wants the cream of the crop for bargain rates. Not gonna happen, especially if the government mandates it. We need reform, competition, tort reform. Please read the bill instead of listening to sound bites. There are some VERY real concerns in this bill, and I voted for Obama and want to see some major changes! This bill just doesn’t seem to be the way to go, IMHO.
FYI – I just got off the phone with a local pastor who is going to pay for a patient’s procedure. She has no insurance so her church is stepping up. We are also offering a huge discount so she WILL get the help she needs. And you know what, she will be treated the same way as the person who has full coverage insurance. There are SOME of us who care and want to make sure ALL patients are treated well!
@tony – i hear you, and at some point we all die and we have to draw the line somewhere on what is reasonable. 1000 years ago people likely did not have the capability to help someone after they fell off a camel. The question I’m asking is very different because we can help them. The question becomes, ‘should we let people die when we have the capability to help them simply because they don’t have health coverage?’. Maybe a more difficult question is ‘should we let them suffer?’. What about a broken leg? Do we leave it broken and malformed saying the poor can tough it out?
@Robin…where’s your hospital? Can I go? :)
Texas baby, but I bet if you talk to your doctor he will work with you on payment. And most hospitals will too.
Some very thoughtful comments. And some pretty poorly written ones too. I wish I had the passion and umph to write clearly about my thoughts on this subject. I will only leave you with a few thoughts. Yes, we can try to get everyone “coverage” but just because you are covered, does not mean you will not misuse the system. There are many reasons or ER’s are packed. >96% of the people we see in our ER have coverage of some sort, mostly Medicaid. And they come because it’s close to where they live. If you don’t have a car, what can you do? Sore throat? Let’s walk across the street to the ER.
And yes, Crystal Renaud, at the $6.50 per hour I make taking care of people who abuse the system, abuse themselves and, at times, abuse me, I am “blinded by the mighty dollar.” Sigh.
@Hemant: You said, “If you look at which hospitals routinely provide the best service and best care, it?s the Veterans Affairs hospitals.” As has already been stated, this is not an argument based on real life knowledge. It can’t possibly be, because it is simply not true. On of the biggest campaign promises is always “we need to take better care of our veterans”. As a veteran myself, I can tell you that they are typically among the worst run facilities in the country. Why? The government runs them. It’s terrible for our veterans to wait for procedures, etc. They in fact do when in the VA system. This might not be true for a lot, but it is definitely true for enough that it’s a problem.
I know this was already addressed by Tony, but it was just such an outlandish claim that I had to say something.
@anne – you can also barter w/ your surgeon. tell him you’ll write something he needs for free in exchange for a reduced price or a nice discount. maybe he has a birthday coming up, offer to pop up out of cupcake – seriously, with all the people you know that have musical talent in nashvegas you could offer free entertainment for a party, or fundraiser for him, or his church
of course, make sure you get the surgery first. if you write something he doesn’t like you may not fair too well
6YearMed – Sounds like you’re stuck like the rest of us. The average pay for a medical assistant in my area is $10 an hour, scary. My doctors pay well above average but they’re rare. It’s a sad commentary when my friend, who works in the detention facility industry (his company makes and/or sells locks, etc. to prisons) makes over $200,000 per year as a PROJECT MANAGER, that’s as much as my doctor but without the personal liability, risk and student loans! Most doctors make decent salaries but they are not “raking in the dough” unless they are highly specialized.
Bill Jenkins nailed it. Perfectly said.
Just wanted to give some love to a VA hospital in DFW. I don’t know which one but my dad uses it (he is unemployed and a vet) and they take such good care of him.
Word.
So…I’ve read just a couple of comments and I know this may go against what a lot of people are saying and I don’t really want to comment too much on health care right now, but PRAISE GOD that I have healthcare! I actually work for a hospital and if I go to that hospital and the doctor’s that are part of the medical pavilion I pay nothing! I like you Anne, had gallbladder surgery….26,000 dollars for 2 hours….paid nothing…didn’t pay anything the two times I went to the ER and I haven’t paid for all the doctor’s visits that I have gone to over the past three years. After reading some of the comments I have to say I am not going to ever complain about being able to pay my dentist payments for the cavity he filled or for having to pay 10 dollars for contacts for 6 months. My husband and I are really blessed and we have known this, but after reading some of the stuff people have written I am humbled even more! Hope things work out for you and sorry we can’t help! I do know that in the state of Texas if you went to a public hospital you CAN work out a payment plan with you on YOUR terms and they have to accept it…it can be 5 dollars a month for the rest of your life and they have to take it!
@Hemant If you think government run healthcare is going to run smoothly, and you cite the post office as a great example of efficency, you need to hear my story of the post office from last week.
I needed a letter to get to a city in the same state I live in that is 3 hours from where I live. This was a Tuesday and I needed it there by Friday. So after discussing options with the post office employee, I choose Priority Mail because it said that it would be there in 2-3 days, so it should have been there Thursday, at the latest Friday. I paid for Priority Mail, certified, and return reciept requested. To my frustration it took 6 DAYS (Triple at best, Double at worst) to get to it’s destination.
Only then did the postal employees start backpedalling “Oh, it is not guaranteed”, etc, etc, etc. I could have walked to the city faster than it got there. No apologies, nothing. It sat somewhere. And I know that employees in the regional sorting facility don’t do the work they are supposed to be doing because I know someone that works there and he tells me they play poker all night during the third shift.
That is not the kind of healthcare I want. I agree changes have to be made to the current system, but I don’t see the upside of the government taking it over.
I truly don’t know why (but I do think something is wrong) that health care cost in the US is so high…anything from insurance premiums to the actual cost of service itself. Maybe because of the doctors have to pay astronomical fees for malpractice/lawsuits insurance? But even then…it frustrates the heck out of me when I’m sick and I go to the doctor, I feel like I’m ‘under-treated’ maybe because that’ll make me go back for 2nd, 3rd, 4th visit (more revenue for the doctor) and/or they’re just afraid that over-treatment will result in some health problem and they’ll get sued later on? I went to ER last month and the doctor started seeing some spots, which was diagnosed as chicken pox…didn’t do anything but gave me some samples of vicodin. I came back four days later with the worst case of chicken pox ever and was hospitalized for FOUR days. Found out after I ‘binged’ (instead of googled ;p ) that within 24-48 hours of first signs of lesions, you can actually get treated with antivirus…and it’ll reduce the severity of the sickness. That made me really mad. Fortunately I have insurance through work and my hospital bills were covered …They charged a total of $200 for a couple small bottles of facial soap, a thermometer, some cotton, and a plastic basin…and labeled it ‘self applicable medication’. My cost: $6 Grand
One of my parents had heart surgery overseas (Asia)…great doctor, big nice VIP room…hospital stay for one week. Cost: $12 Grand.
There will be those who say “Yeah but we have the best doctors, the best technology, etc…” Technology overseas in many ways are equal to what we have here with less cost. Plus, those million dollars MRI machine are far from perfect anyway and western doctors (my opinion) are really stuck in their ways in terms of diagnosing you. After two years of persistent pain and doctor keeps saying ‘nothing is wrong’ I’ve found more relief from acupuncture and homeopathic doctors. They’re the ones who listen to you far more than ‘modern/western’ doctors.
There are tons of Americans doing surgeries overseas…1/3rd of the cost and they’re still able to stay and recover in hospital room equivalent to four star hotel.
I will have to say though…(good) nurses are such blessings…they’re the ones caring for you at 1:00 in the morning giving you medicine when your fever goes up…taking care of your needs when the doctor only look at charts in the morning and sign the dotted line.
I’m rambling now…
something has to be done..i’m not sure if obama’s deal is the right one, but i’ve seen my costs go way up in the past 10 years. right now i’m waiting for 9 mos. for hernia surgery…that sucks…
@Hemant
I am a long time reader, first time poster.
I am not saying that I do not want some kind of reform to make health care more accessible to individuals. Though, I believe that a state-run system would actually cause the total quality of health care to decline.
I don’t believe that one can just cap the price of procedures (or doctor’s salaries) and expect the number of procedures to remain the same.
I don’t believe that innovation and new procedures will happen in a socialized system.
Though, I do believe that competition and a free marketplace can help increase innovate procedures and keep costs to a minimum.
Therefore, I am not a fan of socialized health care, because I believe it will hurt everyone in the long run. (Increased costs, lower quality, and low innovation.)
I am in an interesting predicament though, I will be out of school soon and my parent’s health care coverage will end. I am planning to work for myself. I definitely see both sides of the issues.
I hope you are having a good day,
Matt
I live in Canada and I think the health care system here is fantastic. Yes for certain procedures we may have to wait, but if it is declared urgent, usually you can cut right through the waiting lines.
As someone who has had a whole stack of health problems to deal with, I’m grateful that I never once had to worry about the financial consequences that can go along with poor health. I’ve always had the treatment I needed, when I needed it, at no cost to me.
It may not be perfect, but no system is.
oops – my bypass surgery ws scheduled for 3 today and guess what happened! I went and no one was there! check this out for great govt service:
The Postal Service is considering ways to save money on mail delivery, as Americans send less mail and the service loses more money.
?The Postal Service desperately needs to restructure, for its long-term and current financial viability,? Phillip Herr of the General Accounting Office told Congress Thursday.
Among the options being considered: reducing post office hours; closing some post offices; consolidating processing centers; and ending Saturday delivery.
The Postal Service has drawn up a list of 681 post offices to study for possible closure, in an effort to cut costs. Jordan Small of the Postal Service told Congress Thursday that most of them are in urban areas, so affected customers would not have to go as far to find the next-nearest post office.
I live in the Netherlands, and what I like most about my healthcare is that it’s there, and it’s available to everyone. Yes, you need to purchase insurance, but if you are unable to, you get treatment anyway and do not spend the rest of your life paying it off (taxpayers foot the bill. It gets misused sometimes, but more often than not, people that don’t have in insurance are not able to have insurance). When I go into a hospital here, the first thing they look at is my injury, not my insurance. I really noticed the difference last year when I was in the US for six months. I had to use US healthcare three times, and was denied care the first time, while the second and third time I was almost denied because they had never heard of my insurance (and I carried letters detailing the policies I have around with me – letters that are in English I might add and especially designed for that purpose). Eventually, it was the fact that I was in a tiny hospital in New Hampshire, plus the fact that the woman I was with had some sway there, that got my severe staph infection treated and let me return for follow-up treatments. If I had waited till I was home, it would have gone into my bloodstream with pretty severe consequences. The bill came to a lot, but my insurance company is footing the bill without a problem.
I like it how nobody I know here would have to pay off a $12,000 operation. If you need it you get it and your insurance pays for it 99 times out of 100. Just the idea that a lot of people don’t have healthcare is very astounding to me.
@Saskia,
It’s important to remember the issue is not healthcare, it is healthcare insurance. Might sound like semantics, but it’s an important difference. No one in the US is refused healthcare. No one. We even treat those who are here illegally. How is that for kindness?
@Tim
“No one in the US is refused healthcare.”
That’s a pretty bold statement that I don’t think can be supported. Even a cursory search reveals many instances of individuals refused healthcare for a variety of reasons. Even if we assume that 95% of the instances found are bogus, that still leaves 5% that refutes your statement.
I do agree with your last comment. Immigration status should have no negative bearing on the treatment you receive.
I live in Canada… about an hour away from the U.S. border. I love going over the bridge to buy milk and eggs and this steak sauce that I like that I can’t get in Canada. If I have to stay for any longer than a quick shopping trip I pay for some medical insurance that covers most things. The first time I went to myrtle beach golfing I broke my foot and didn’t have insurance… I couldn’t afford to get it done there so I drove home and had it fixed here… FOR FREE!!! I guess as a Canadian I take my free health care for granted. But man… people losing their homes over medical costs… that’s crazy! Someone said that health care was a privilege not a right… that sucks for those who can’t afford it eh? I hope that the citizens of the U.S. get the health care that they deserve and I hope your government foots the bill. Wouldn’t it be awesome to fall off a ladder and break your leg and not have to check the bank account before you limped to the emergency room? Anyway, I’ll still come for the steak sauce but stick to my good ‘ol government run health care system.
Peace!
I guess my experience comes from not having insurance at one time, walking into an ER with an injury being worried that I wouldn’t be able to receive care and being told “we can’t refuse anyone healthcare”. So, if I’m wrong, then I’m wrong. I can admit that. I doubt it’s even 5% though that are “refused” healthcare. Affordability is one thing, being refused is a completely different story.
As for my last statement, I guess my sarcasm didn’t come through as I intended. If we are going to pay for others to have healthcare, I believe they should at least be citizens of this country. But that’s a whole other issue.
I need to rephrase that last statement. As long as someone is here legally (green card, visa, etc), I think it’s the right thing for us to do to provide health care. I do not think it is okay for the American taxpayer to pay for those here illegally. That is part of the reason our health care costs are so high. I know some will shout that shows a lack of compassion, etc. etc. etc. Okay.
I know this is drifting away from Anne’s topic of health care reform but as it relates to providing health care to illegal immigrants . . . I don’t think we can have it both ways.
America has a desire to consume objects and services at the lowest cost possible. There is nothing wrong with that desire. However a not insignificant portion of those who are in this country illegally did not come here to make less money than they could at home.
While some may have come because of a fear for the safety of themselves and their family and some may have come to conduct illegal activity, most came for the chance to make more money to support themselves here and to send support back to their families.
I would wager that most of the jobs that illegal immigrants find are jobs provided by either legal immigrants, naturalized immigrants or native born citizens. These jobs can be filled at a lower wage with little or no benefits provided so that the product or service can be sold at a price that maximizes the return on investment by the owner or owners and generates the highest profit.
The owners find themselves “forced” to employ illegal immigrants or go out of business due to lost revenue because their competition can provide the goods or services at a lower cost . . . because their competition hires illegal immigrants.
So we face a dilemma. By ?we? I mean the American consumer, you and I.
We?ve constructed a scenario which results in a business owner who feels the need to cut their costs by hiring workers at a rate that is only acceptable to an illegal immigrant.
We?ve constructed a scenario in which there are jobs available in this country that are attractive enough for people to break the law by entering the country illegally.
Yet we feel no responsibility to the owner who will go out of business or to the illegal immigrant who forfeits access to healthcare . . . because we want our produce in the grocery store cheaper, our hotels/restaurants/resorts cheaper or our homes/office/retail constructed cheaper.
Enjoying the fruits of lower costs while giving the old “wink, wink, nudge, nudge, look the other way” to those who enable that lower cost is wrong.
We can?t have it both ways.
it still cracks me up that canadians think their healthcare is free – ask these fine peeps what their national, provincial, and local income tax rate are – try 30% for a 50k salary. in the US it’s about 15% (not marginal, einstein, but avg.)
yep – that’s free alright
so, i’ll make a deal. everyone that makes below 100k gets to pay a flat rate of 30% income tax, no deductions. everyone above 100k will pay obamamma’s proposed rate. or even better than that – if you think you can carry your own load (what a frikken’ novel concept that is) you can opt out and not pay for the socialized plan that’s proposed. if you opt in, your taxes should go up significantly to pay for your neighbors heart surgery – fair enough, right? you use it, your taxes pay for it (what a frikken’ concept) – plus, you support it in principal beacause your tax increase is a good thing, right?
simply put, people that want this so called ‘free’ health care just want others to pay for it – they want their little piece of the pie, since they can’t, won’t, or desire to get it another way –
please, quit calling the maple leaf system free, it just ain’t. but if you believe that with all your heart – i have some ocean front property in AZ for sell, cheap!
i tell you what’s free – the use of the healthcare system by those that pay no premiums, no taxes, no nothin’ into the system – and never have paid in
bill states that you can’t have it both ways – that’s just stupid. these abusers of the system HAVE had it both ways for over 50 yrs. free healthcare, no income taxes, and jobs to boot.
i bet we could pay for much of the cost of a nationalized healthcare option simply by actually taxing those that pay none now – what’s so wrong with that? and no one’s taxes go up, they leave because it’s not worth working here if they have to actually pay taxes, and US’ers get jobs (that they are too good to do btw) – and viola! they pay taxes – it’s so duh, it’s stupid
but we won’t do that because of the ‘change’ movement that is really a ‘sheep’ movement – be careful what sheep herder you follow. one leads to green pastures, the other to the lamb chop market
if you want FREE healthcare, then fix the problem, not further tax the biggest investors, enployers, and risk takers that proovide most of you your jobs –
“bill states that you can?t have it both ways – that?s just stupid. these abusers of the system HAVE had it both ways for over 50 yrs. free healthcare, no income taxes, and jobs to boot.”
Tony, when certain segments of our economy, (specifically the service sector, some parts of construction and agriculture) depend on the hiring of illegal immigrants to stay in business, we (the American consumer) are getting it both ways.
We have set an expectation that we are entitled to the lowest price possible without regard to the consequences of that expectation. We want to have our cake and eat it too. That is what I meant by “having it both ways”.
I do agree that there is no such thing as “free healthcare”.
@Tony
Oh, man you have to read this link here. You’ll love it, talking about the margin between the rich and poor… along the same lines as your statement about taxing the biggest investors/business owners.
http://orrinwoodward.blogharbor.com/blog/_archives/2009/7/8/4248384.html
Well… “Free” is a misnomer Tony… I’ll give you that. However, I think the gospel has a pretty clear message of how those with much ought to look out for those with little. Yes my income tax is probably higher than yours, but I would gladly pay a little more tax than see a family whose child is diagnosed with cancer be forced to choose between their house and their child’s treatment…. bottom line. Also if you look at how much of Canada’s government spending is set toward health care and compare that to how much is spent at defense (military stuff) and then compare that ratio with other countries you see a strong government commitment to keeping Canadians healthy. I guess it’s just a philosophical difference we have of what governments should do for their people and what people should be willing to do for those who have less.
Peace
I agree with the tenent of oyur post completely! My take, as I posted above, is that we (Christians) should take care of the sick, poor and indigent. That’s scripture you know, ‘love your neighbor as yourself’ .
Therefore, the responsibility lies with us ,not the govt. Personally, I would much rather pay less in taxes and have more to give away to feed, clothe, and provide medical care to people.
Letting the govt. do that is just plain ol lazy Christianity in my book. It’s no different than bringing your 3 kids to church and saying ‘i deal with them all week, why should i teach them on Sun/Sat/Wed/Thurs at my place of worship?’ uh, you rolled in the hay and got a kid so take care of the little bugger! church isn’t a babysitting service (well, actually it is now)
case in point – if i paid 40% less income tax this year i could pay for anne’s surgery and probably would, too – the great US govt prevents that from happening
Tony – Look up “supply-side economics”. It is essentially the embodiment of what you propose. In theory it should work great but it does not take into factor human nature – and we know what human nature leads us to :)
The last time supply-side/trickle-down economics was put into place occurred just as I graduated from college and entered the workforce so I’ve lived it from it’s beginning and over the last 30+ years. It (supply-side economics, Reaganomics, VooDoo economics, etc.) touched off the era of materialism and consumerism that lead us to the state we are in today.
The gap between the highest wage earner and the lowest wage earner grew by leaps and bounds. The sense of “entitlement” (you can read that as greed or the “human nature factor” I mentioned above) for bigger houses, bigger cars, bigger everything causes the focus to be on “what’s in it for me” and a “keep your hands off my pile” attitude that is not reflected in the words of Christ.
That it isn?t reflected should come as no surprise to those of us who believe that we are fallen creatures who will put self in place of others. Research shows that while the wealthy give more in total dollars, low income people give almost 30 percent more as a share of their income. My history in the church talking to folks who are responsible for ?counting the tithes? tells me that the vast majority of donations (both in actual dollars and as a percent of their income) comes from a very, very small segment of the attendees of any local church.
If we as believers are so selfish with the blessings and gifts that we have been given do we really expect the culture at large to do any better? Seriously?
To speak to your last point, the government is not keeping you from paying for Anne’s surgery . . .
As for the current state of economic affairs and the repercussions of it to our culture, a very interesting take on this is the book “Reset” by Kurt Anderson.
And I would be remiss if I didn?t include a link to this great piece of satire (I did grow up reading Mad Magazine so I can?t pass it up) http://tinyurl.com/dmkc4v
Tony, I look at your series of posts and say “boy, if that wasn’t me, exactly, not many years ago!” And it was. Please understand that, so you don’t think I’m criticizing. I’m not. But I was where you are now. I’ve grown. In experience. And in reading the Bible. That’s brought me to where Chris and Bill are now.
I’ve come to believe strongly in “Loving and helping our neighbors.” And we all are to do that on every level there is. Loving the people who live next door, with whatever help and encouragement they need. Helping people in our church. Our community. Our state. Our nation. And overseas, often through ministries like Compassion.
On some of those levels we can do it alone. On others we can help a lot through churches or, better yet, groups of churches. But one thing I’ve realized is that when it comes to the whole community, the state, or the nation, there aren’t enough of us in the church. The ONLY way to give the help God tells us to give there – and to keep people from losing homes due to medical costs, job layoffs, and other reasons – is for ALL of us to pitch in. “We, the people” HAVE to do it. Or it won’t happen. And I, for one, don’t want the results of that on my conscience.
I’ve seen enough of those people – good people, caught in bad circumstances – to care about what happens to them. To know it could be me. Or my family. Not only could be. Has been.
Ezekiel tells us God destroyed Sodom for living in luxury while “the poor and needy suffered outside her door.” Amos told Jerusalem and Samaria that they’d be the first to be taken into captivity because they, too, lived in luxury while “caring not that your brothers need your help” (Living Bible). I don’t want our nation to be guilty of that. I’m willing to pitch in and do my share so we’re not.
Best wishes.
Bill / Pete:
i simply disagree. I do not believe the govt’s role is to 1) heal the human condition of greed or materialsim. i do agree thy’re ugly and unBiblical – but absolutely hate the fact that the govt is taking the place of the work of the Body of Christ – it is not thier place to do so and infringes on our rights
2) i am a firm, firm believer in supply side economics – it encourages growth, jobs, and new technolgy – such as the one you’re using right now
3) i find cloaked driticism in the name of ‘Christ’s love’ absolutely pathetic unless it is used to save a brother from death, sin, or to better them or protect them-
and it’s a very, very old trick. sorry that you have to do that routine
– if you disagree, just disagree – it’s your right, priviledge and maybe even God’s calling for you to do so – no need to rationailze it to me or to anyone else
4) i find it amusing that bill makes assumptions about age, experience, etc. – you really missed the boat on that one – i’m probably older than you my friend
5) i do hear you and simply disagree, that’s all. that’s why we get to vote in this great country of ours – it’s the USA and we are so blessed to be living here
Hey, Bill & Tony –
Must say that’s one of the most lively and entertaining exchanges I’ve ever had. And it’s OK, Tony, still love you in Christ.
Sounds like we have a competition for who’s the most senior. Don’t know who’d win, but just so you know – it’d be a 3-way race. Would you believe guys our age could keep things so lively?
Best to both of you (and all Anne’s other readers).
is loving your neighbor killing them?
“WASHINGTON – Health care legislation before Congress would allow a new government-sponsored insurance plan to cover abortions, a decision that would affect millions of women and recast federal policy on the divisive issue.
Federal funds for abortions are now restricted to cases involving rape, incest or danger to the life of the mother. Abortion opponents say those restrictions should carry over to any health insurance sold through a new marketplace envisioned under the legislation, an exchange where people would choose private coverage or the public plan.
Abortion rights supporters say that would have the effect of denying coverage for abortion to millions of women who now have it through workplace insurance and are expected to join the exchange.”
what’s really funny is that the abortin advocates also promote the fact that no one will lose their current medical insurance – a littel two faced I think
and let’s not forget that tax dollars to pay for abortions outside of the conditions stated in the article are simply illegal – that means against the law – a criminal offense, etc. – like murder, or rape
now that’s taking care of your brother (or unborn brother) alright
I’m from Ontario in Canada. Healthcare is ‘free.’ Most people here love it. I do not. Wait times are atrocious (2-8 hours for emergency, 6-12 months for MRIs/Cat Scans, etc.) Plus, the cost is hidden from us. Over 40% of our income tax (which reaches as high as 45%) is for healthcare alone.
All that to say- when the government runs something, it’s chunky.
I’m thinking government should make all employers liable to ensure their workers up to a set minimum. Poor families are covered by the state.
The Good Samaritan and Health Care Reform
http://www.brainreleasevalve.com/?p=3746
I thought this guy’s makes a good point about health care being a way to “love thy neighbor”.
It seems like business is still getting hit hard. Is anybody seeing an upswing in their respective niches? Health reform seems like a mess. I generate long term care insurance leads and annuity leads for the insurance industry, but volume has been terrible in the last two months. I am afraid the worst is yet to come, but maybe it is just my attitude.
My family is very against this new health care reform. I decided that I would do my own research and form my own opinion. While doing my looking, I came across a youtube video that explained why it makes sense for health care companies to not cover pre-existing conditions. The reasoning went as this, “If you are an uninsured driver and have a car accident, you would not then get car insurance and ask that your company pay for the previous damage.” For a car, this idea makes perfect sense. And it would make perfect sense for this health care idea, if I were a car. The fact that a human life can be compared to a car or a home is ridiculous.
I am 23 years old. I was kicked off my parents insurance (even though I was a college student) at the age of 18. I have a cyst under my arm that has not been biopsied because I do not have health insurance. I am terrified to have it looked at, because if it is found to be cancerous, I am left to either go untreated due to the fact that I have no money, or go into life-long debt just to stay alive.
As a Christian, I find nothing more disgusting than hearing other Christians complain that they should not have to pay for other people, who do not work, and are therefore undeserving, to have health care. When I hear this, my blood boils. Did Jesus not command us to love one another and take care of one another? Because someone doesn’t have a job they are somehow unworthy of living a healthy life? I have a job, and still don’t have the money to receive health insurance, do I also fall into the category of unworthy? And the argument about the people who scam the system will now be able to get insurance in obsolete as well. If they can scam the system now, they will always be able to. And regardless of whether they are criminals or not, they are a person, not a car. And people deserve to live.
As messy as this whole issue is, something needs to be done. I did not personally vote for Obama, but I commend him for doing something about the injustice that is the American health care situation.
I had heart surgery in August. And an issue with my female junk. And acid reflux, which really isn’t that big of a deal.
I just lost my group HC coverage because I chose to pursue my passion and write full time. FORTUNATELY I live in a state where up until last year, there is a ST government supported HC plan (I pay 2/3, govt pays 1/3) that is a decent plan for little stuff. It doesn’t cover my RX. It doesn’t cover anything over $25k/year. But at least I can go to the doctor when I need to.
I heard an NPR program on the differences between the plans, and I really like the House’s plan. National leglislation BUT if a state can prove it knows what it’s doing, it is regulated at the state level. I hope they just get rid of pre-exisisting conditions and make Rxs more affordable. It is by the grace of my doctors giving me samples that I am able to control my medical problems – and I’m actually pretty healthy!!!!!