is it just me, or does anyone else struggle with the tension between pretty church and messy church?
by pretty church, i mean the lights, camera, and action.
by messy church, i mean the dirty, dangerous, tangible.
(let’s not argue over vernacular. i trust you know what i mean.)
being the church can look different in different ways and in different environments.
sometimes it’s the excellence demonstrated in a sunday service.
other times it’s the sweat as a team builds a church brick by brick in the dominican.
sometimes it’s children’s program and presenting god in a way a kid’s never seen.
other times it’s feeding the kid their only meal of the week.
when my messy church sleeves are rolled up and my arms are dirty, i admit it’s easy for me to ask a lot of questions about pretty church.
but in all fairness, the gospel can be acted out in many avenues.
living in the tension is difficult for me.
anyone else?
Comments
57 responses to “pretty church – messy church”
Anne,
Don’t you think if it was easy, everyone would be a Christ-follower and “doing” church? Good food for thought.
Did you ever see anyone in Scripture “doing neat church”?????
I confess. I used to serve a bigger church that had Fernando Ortega’s music director as the worship leader. Every Sunday was amazing! I could easily have come for worship and then left. It was just that fulfilling. Then I moved to the church I serve now. Let’s just say it is not quite as aesthetically pleasing and the execution is far from what I was used to. It was hard at first and sometimes still is, but I realized something in the middle of it. When I worship now, it isn’t because the leader/music/flow/songs/artistry are so good. It’s because I really am worshiping God, sometimes despite the execution.
This issue has always been a point of tension for me and has at times been a point of division. There have been and I am sure there will in the future be times when at see churches that are spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on lighting, audio, video, etc. and I can’t believe that they are actually following Christ.
It really isn’t my place to judge what they are doing, I need to be responsible for my ministry and when I can get that perfected (can you say “not in this lifetime?”) maybe I’ll be ready to judge how others are doing ministry.
I don’t really know what to say about either side of it. With the right heart, both the pretty and the messy church serve two unique purposes. However, i’m right there with you, Anne. Every time i visit America from China i get that feeling in my gut that something with the American church just isn’t right. But then again, i can’t do what i’m doing without the American church and i have a deep love for the ways they are changing lives.
I totally feel this way! My first trip to a third world area was over 10 years ago but those images still play in my mind. I think the thing I have to remind myself is that if we are being Christ…and I mean truly showing his character…it won’t matter whether we are dirty or pretty…we are simply serving a God who loves us!
Biscuet: well said.
The other day, Anne mentioned someone who said (in light of the Perry Noble post fiasco) that we should focus more on celebrating the church than looking for things to criticize. If most of the “excellence” lovers took a long hard look at church across the centuries and the world, you would find an incredibly non-excellent mess that God somehow uses to bless the world.
Messy, off-key worship led by people who are just doing the best they know how to honor their Lord isn’t really so messy.
You’ve hit on something that has been eating at me lately. Is it wrong that I am starting to hear a voice in my head that says “This church is becoming too pretty”? If all the lights, cameras, production stuff is helping bring people to Christ, is it a sin to sit in judgment and deem it excessive or indulgent? I’ve decided to continue to tithe but to send it elsewhere, rather than give it to the pretty church. Is that wrong of me? I struggle with this tension too. Tough topic Anne!
Well said, Anne. I too have felt the “tension” in that while were missionaries in the Dominican it was easy to feel like we were DOing something for Christ. Back in “church” ministry for the past 3 years it has felt at times we were just DOing church… But, I’m coming to realize also, that although sometimes “pretty”, sometimes “messy” when He’s involved and leading and He’s obviously working there is a place for both kinds of church. That’s also one of the reasons we are planting a new church. We come from a really “pretty” church (and people are coming to Christ there still) but now we’re planting a different kind of church. Some people that come to our church now would never go to a “pretty” church. I guess that’s what we’re here for, a different group of people.
Yes, I agree – well said.
I’ve discovered that on the positive side, my homeless lunches (messy stuff) makes my worship leading (pretty stuff) way more meaningful and effective.
So I’d say in some ways the messy stuff has to lead us into the pretty stuff. If we only get to see/experience/be part of the pretty stuff then we’re missing out on the true call…
this is crazy stuff, right…
I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead.
I will admit that as I’ve been raising money to send guitars to worship leaders in the Dominican Republic I’ve had thoughts like “We need to just strip the worship center and never spend another cent on anything like backdrops and lighting”. It all seems too much when I consider other churches have nothing. (and I have a very low budget btw, so I can’t imagine how I’d feel at larger churches)
I am – at present – really struggling with the idea of presenting a package on Sundays that people will come back for because it meets their needs in a very un-eternal way. I can’t compete with other churches. I don’t want to. The consumerism in America that has filtered into our mindset about everything, even church, is deadly.
I believe that focusing on people outside our walls is the great antidote to consumerism. If I am awakened to God and to His purposes in this world while we worship and teach, then my priority and concern becomes how I can go live it out, not what the church can do for me. I begin to focus on going and giving not on receiving and judging. In light of God’s purposes being lived out in this world, a complaint about sound and lighting will seem (and will be) petty.
Anne, have you read “The Dangerous Act of Worship” by Mark Labberton? I think it might speak to this struggle.
God, let us focus on what is ETERNAL!
I work for a church who thinks they should be a pretty church, well a 1940’s pretty church, when the community needs them to be a dirty church. So I live with the tension of a church family who wants to be the old pretty church with the Sunday school program and pretty organ lead worship, when the community needs a health clinic, English classes, nutrition classes, gang relations, after school care and so much more. So I am hitting the wall here, my church canceled one of my programs because it was too risky to bring community kids into the church, because someone found crayon on the floor, and the kids were play wrestling on the stage. So now I have to work on making this dirty church program pretty or scrap it.
in a word: yes.
balancing that tension has been even more challenging in the year and a half since returning from India.
a trip that – on more than one occasion – found an undeserving beneficiary of the plenty of western culture (me) having his feet washed by the beautiful hands of those who – materially – know primarily want (boys and girls of rural Jharkhand state). that want, though, had no impact on the generosity of their hearts.
we all are stewards. i want to serve that role well every day.
I know that I am not called to pretty church, I visit it, love the people there, but that ‘s not my place and I am so at peace in my life, more so this last 2 1/2 years of working with the poor, troubled teens, etc, then ever in my 24 years of being a Christian.
What I love about my church is they care about excellence, but they care MORE about helping the poor, the Orphan, the lost, and I think it shows by the money put into these type of outreaches, missions, adoption ministries, etc. they come first, before excellence in the presentation, so I believe THAT is where the tension has to stay.
The danger in church world today is keeping up with the Mega Church-Joneses. It’s a trap the devil lays every day for the Mega pastor, one I don’t envy at all. That is why we must pray diligently for pastors, pray they seek to please God first in everything, everyday, every decision. So that the church can be as much if not more about doing Messy Church then doing Pretty Church.
I think the only church one can have word on this subject is their own church home.
That should be the basis of definition for pretty and ugly.
More times than not, the “pretty churches” are doing more “messy work” than the messy churches imagine.
And that is where the rub comes.
I had to learn this the hard way.
… always a tough call, I think we live with the tyranny of perfectionsim that prevents us from owning the fact that life is messy, therefore messy church is fine, pretty church is in many ways a mask!
It’s interesting how Pretty Church gradually becomes Messy Church when you grow more involved. When I first started attending Liquid, it was (and to an extent still is) Pretty Church. But when I joined a couple service teams, I noticed just how dirty and dangerous Liquid was.
As my involvement grew, the messier church got in my eyes. Thursday nights in a cluttered office poring over kids program materials past midnight on occasion just so that children can learn about their Savior. 4:00am on Sunday morning in the nasty bowels of a parking garage where underpaid disgruntled hotel kitchen workers relieve themselves wherever it’s convenient just so that we can set up an engaging worship experience for our parishioners.
7:00am on a Saturday to set up an environment for 1,000 beautiful new/cherished coats to be handed out to the homeless population of New Brunswick, NJ. Coats that were taken off the backs of parishioners in Morristown, NJ. . . most of whom will never even see the faces of the people who now wear those coats. All day at a gas station just to provide relief to people struggling to pay the then $41 just to get 10 gallons of gasoline. A church that is willing to pay $31 per car just so that people who couldn’t care less about the “lights, camera, action” in Hyatt Morristown could still experience God’s love in a tangible way.
When I first set foot in Liquid’s Sunday service, all I saw were the “lights, camera, action” amid the smiles and warmth of people’s love. But now, after rolling up my sleeves and applying my hands and heart to the needs and vision of our church, I’ve discovered a Messy Church hidden behind the mask of a Pretty Church.
i know what you mean. (I think.)
pretty church and messy church.
both hold temptations for leaders and the communities.
the temptations to be lazy about what we believe.
messy might be tempted to make excuses.
pretty might be tempted to never make mistakes.
both temptations are devastating for the communities.
They might be tempted to misunderstand the gospel.
messy might have a chip on it’s shoulder not allowing for transformation.
pretty might reduce the gospel in such a simplified way that people miss the point.
The leaders might be tempted to take responsibility from the people in their communities.
messy might feed the victim mentality, blaming others or past pastors/churches
pretty might let people consume their “we’ll take care of everything”
Their might be a temptation to measure success in unhelpful ways.
messy might relish it’s smallness (we’re not like those big churches)
pretty might spend 90% of it’s time measure the wrong things
Both might be tempted to thing that the programs, the technology, the homes we meet in or the websites we have are not the church. That the people are the church.
None of us go to church and we need to start being the church.
I suppose that philosophy at it;s heart is messy church. But it’s where I live.
The tension is a weird place to live. For me, sadly it is easier to ignore the messy church and be so comfortable in the nice church scenario. In recognizing that I have been intentional about not forgetting what is out there and the true state of the church worldwide and though we have moving lights, high def cameras the rest of the church worldwide doesn’t.
Since I have been intentional the tension is harder to live in knowing that 10 mins from our campus is a hurting city needing the love of Jesus in their hearts, but also their stomaches and some warm clothes or just some small needs. Anne, thank for being someone who has challenged me to not ignore the people in need.
I have trouble living in the tension every day.
I struggle not to criticize the pretty. I struggle not to put the messy on a pedestal.
When God has broken your heart for people, I think it’s impossible not to struggle with the tension.
Just my two cents.
I guess one way to look at it would be this: if God has blessed you with the resources to be a Pretty Church, do that. Make use of the abundance that God has entrusted your body of believers with. But never forget that Messy Churches exist and that we need, to the best of our ability, extend, out of the abundance of God’s blessing to us the Pretty Churches, a helping hand to the Messy Churches that don’t have the resources to be a Pretty Church.
Like St. Augustine said, “Love God and do what you want.” Because when we truly love God, our desires will line up with His. And when we place our treasures and wealth where our desires are (according to our love for God), He is pleased. Whatever we do for one of the least of these, His children and brothers, we have done that for Christ.
Brooke Fraser wrote this prayer: “Break my heart for what breaks Yours.” I pray that when we look around and see the Messy Church among us, our hearts will break, and we will pour out our love for God upon them.
did you read my blog yesterday? because we’re at it again. same thinking. same time. same questions.
When these isn’t balance between these two worlds it makes for a dysfunctional love don’t you think? If we’re all words and no actions or all actions and no words neither is the greatest avenue.
It’s when we “learn” to blend these two church worlds that I believe crazy awesomeness happens. That’s the hard part of the blending! Granted, one is not greater or lesser than the other. I love the quote “We can give without loving, but we cannot love without giving.”
Nikki Leonti’s song lyrics:
We spoke with the tongues of angels
But we didn’t have love, no we didn’t have love
We had faith that could move any mountain
But it wasn’t enough, ’cause we didn’t have love
Jesus’ could have done miracles all he wanted, but if he didn’t love people it would miss the point of doing the miracle. If we have lights and great musicians, but it’s all for show, its not worth anything. If we focus only on messy church and don’t see the need to have excellence in our worship services then it misses that point as well. That’s the blend area.
Good thoughts Anne!
Anne,
Obviously you’re not alone. I struggle with this all the time. What suburban churches want vs. what the world needs and we’ve been called to do. Andrew Peterson said in one of hid older songs, that we are “shackled by the comfort of our couch” and I think a lot of the times this is where we end up. I really like how Bono put it, we have to “rage against our own indifference”. Sorry for the name dropping.
Pretty and messy can coexist in the same church. And I’m so very grateful for that.
#12@ Jonathan said,
sometimes trying to convince others will drain you of all your energy to actually do what is needed. moving on isn’t always a bad thing if it allows you to get things done.
i go to a pretty church and try to make my every day Christ walk as messy as possible-for everything there is a season
God bless the pretty and the messy
I’m sorry, Anne, but I just don’t buy that it’s okay to worry about having “pretty church” when people are starving to death. People have come to Christ for thousands of years without the “pretty,” and the Biblical mandates to care for the poor should outweigh our wants every single time. I have lived in this tension for a decade now, moving back and forth between central and eastern Africa and the American south, and I am convinced that much of what we refer to as “living in tension” is actually a justification for doing what we want to do without regard for the fact that our choices condemn others to suffering and death.
“Where your treasure is there your heart will also be.”
I think this tiny portion of scripture holds immeasurably deep truths on the subject.
What are buildings for?
What are professional staff for?
What is the show all about?
The amount of time, money, and resources that get poured into pretty church is embarrassingly tipping the scales over messy church. It is a sort of classic rebellious Israel ignoring the plight of those around them. How can we sit on our thrones, gorging ourselves on entertainment, consuming a third of the world’s resources – when poverty, starvation, disease, war, and famine still afflict our fellow man? It is gross neglegence! Is it any wonder that the evangelical church is losing it’s power and influence in the world? We now bear the same image as corporate America – who regular people trust about as far as they can throw them. Even many of those within them are leaving the pretty church at alarming rates.
Sure, the pretty church reasons sound, well… reasonable enough – “We do it to reach people.” And we all want to reach people – that’s inarguable. Yet there are some huge questions that must be answered:
Which people are we reaching? How many people could our clergical salaries feed for a year? How many villages could we effectively save with medicine and clean water buy putting the building campaign money to good use? How many schools could you build by selling off your techno-gadgets on Ebay? Why is it that 90% of what people are generously giving to our institutions being put into our own coffers instead of flowing out to meet these grotesque needs in our world? Are we reallyt that needy in America? Are we really that into competition? Are we really that into ourselves? Are we really that into ignorance is bliss? What excuses do we tell ourselves at night to get any sleep or peace in our spirit?
The early church seemed to have no need for these massive digital structures, excellently performed church services, and professional glamorous staff – yet they were 100 times more effective than we can even dream to be for Christ.
The tension for me is more between our pop Christian institutions in America (pretty), and the reality of the biblical expression of church (messy).
Our heart focus seems to be more about the upwards surface success on the mountains in America, more than downwards deep humility lived in the valleys of pain and suffering… follow the money…
“Where your treasure is, there your heart will also be.”
Obviously, the messy seems more dire and often “bigger” but I think we need both. Some people are amazing at the messy and some at the pretty. Some people will come to Christ through the messy and some through the pretty.
And PS I totally respect that you do both. I wish I could say the same about myself.
Man looks at the outward appearance, but God looks at the heart.
And that could be used to justify both churches that appear pretty and churches that don’t.
Umm, I was going to say something here about how lights and sound don’t necessarily constitute prettiness, but, that would be getting into semantics, which is not what you wanted to do.
The pastor of a church in my Dallas neighborhood recently wrote a column in a neighborhood newsletter that totally ticked me off, because he suggested that we shouldn’t try getting into the ugly parts of each other’s lives. It ticked me off WAY more than anything my big, pretty church has done. That’s because I know that my church is only pretty when you first visit. As soon as you start scratching the surface, it gets messy quickly. And even better, there’s lots and lots and lots of redemption stories in that messiness.
I can’t speak for every pretty church. I’m just confident that mine is on the right track, because of the hearts of the people there.
@drho – “…..and professional glamorous staff ” uh, how do i say this within the rules? OK – here goes.
i think it is nonproductive to make braod, sweeping comments to put down a church staff w/o having first hand knowledge of them, the church, and their hearts
if this is a devisive comment – anne, please delete
while i don’t agree with dr ho’s comments completely. To dismiss him so quickly i think is wrong too. I would not delete.
Tony I’d suggest there’s probably something in there for you to hear bro. Don’t know you, or your situation.
i don’t see anything in there worth censoring. What do you really have to loose Tony? What are you afraid of by dr ho’s statements?
If they aren’t true for you, then shake it off your feet.
Anne you asked for thoughts, Dr ho gave his/hers. I say keep it. :-)
In the early 70s we lived in Turkey. Our church led by our missionaries was prohibited. Not “freedom of worship” because of NATO agreement, but because of large number of people gathered. We had to meet in a house. The porch had to be screened in to prevent bombs from being hurled in on us. A Turkish guard stood across the street with a huge weapon ready. They had a list of all who went there. The USAF “recommended” we not go there, but did apply force to prevent us from doing so. All I can remember off the top of my head right now; husband can tell much more. He was deacon, we walked long distance each service. No car.
This was the period of time that I truly found my personal, daily walking relationship with Jesus, though I’d been in the “church” all my life, being saved at age 9. Upon return to the States, my throat clogged when I attended the churches. All I could see were rituals, even in what you all are referring to messy churches. That was 35 years ago.
Don’t get me wrong. I like the pretty church. I’m a musician; it really speaks to me. Just showing how many years ago this was going on, and not advocating everyone “suffer” for their church.
@riddle – i prefer stirred, not shaken, unlike 007
btw-the delete comment is in reference to MY comment, not drho’s
i don’t tell anne who to delete, unless it’s my comment
good grief
@tony
fair enough.
thanks for the clarification.
grief can be good can’t it.
Well said, D Rho.
Tony, I read D Rho’s comments as a commentary on the state of the instutional church in America, not as a condemnation of any particular church staff or individual.
It’s certainly something I struggle with; the model of how we “do church” in America seems to be far, far off the Biblical model. I had to stop giving money to my church a couple of years ago because of a deep conviction that spending 85% of the budget on ourselves was neither ministry nor what God intends for us to be doing and find ways to redirect that money to direct ministry to those in need.
A book that really influenced my thinking on this is Ron Sider’s Rich Christians in an Age of Hunger, which I highly recommend to anyone who’s in conversation about the direction of the church.
I struggle with this every day. At least on those days when I’m not so busy doing church that I forget to think about it.
Some days, that busy-ness is writing charts and planning engaging services and talking about sets and lighting and graphics and all that pretty church stuff.
Other days, I spend so much time one on one with people who are desperate to talk to somebody about the reality of a God who made them, loves them and offers hope for change and eternal life that I don’t have time to think about much else.
Like most everything in life, it’s a both/and. The danger lies in not examining what we’re doing and why on a daily basis.
Great topic for your next book, Anne.
Here Here to Beth. She’s got it nailed in my opinion. A Church can be both. Where she has it nailed even better? You’ve got your next book on your hands Anne!
@tex in africa:
OK fair enough. let me say this then…. as a broad sweeping statement, there are a lot of youth pastors and missionaries are way too concerned about being glamorous, raising money, and setting up side businesses to make money off the church than we need.generally speaking
I feel people will continue to defend “pretty church” because It is what they have always known…….and some peoples salaries and positions depend on its continued existence…..However, If people would simply read through the book of Acts they may get a picture of the real CHURCH, if their minds and hearts are open to the Holy Spirit…..
Or investing in the folks living next door, in my neighborhood.
I’ll say that again…
OR INVESTING IN THE FOLKS LIVING NEXT DOOR, IN MY OWN NEIGHBORHOOD.
It’s so easy to tithe, to sponsor a child, to build a well in Nigeria, to get on a trendy campaign… and then wash our hands of the people right in front of our faces. Don’t get me wrong, I’m leading our church in the Advent Conspiracy thing as we speak, and it’s great. So are 50,000 pairs o shoes. It’s not either or.
But let’s face it, it’s “in” these days to see church as what we’re doing for people “over there” instead of where we are. Forgetting that the poorest of the poor are those without Christ and Christians, wherever they may live ? slum, cardboard box, or mansion on the hill. Forgetting (conveniently) the people God is counting on us to reach because we’re the ones WITHIN reach.
Anne, you have such a wonderful heart. Thanks for leading the way in the overseas stuff. In our church, I’m leading a growing wave of people doing something called 52Thrive (Five-to–Thrive). This is messy church, and I love it:
1. Once a day, pray for a chance to plant a spiritual seed.
2. Once a week, offer an act of kindness to a neighbor, no strings attached.
3. Once a paycheck, use 1-2.5% of your income on the opportunities God gives you to be kind ? and if necessary, deduct this from your tithe (Yes, we really say that!)
4. Once a month, have coffee or a meal with someone you know where you live, work, or play.
5. Once a quarter, do some kind of service project with your small group.
Want more info? Check it out at http://www.dccnet.org/52thrive.html
Well, I’d like to offer my own, personal experience here:
Sometimes it takes a “pretty church” to get people to the point where they’re willing to go be a part of a messy church.
Before coming to Healing Place Church, I had NEVER done any kind of outreach before. Oh, I had volunteered in the nursery at previous churches, taught Sunday School, and even worked on the “Kitchen Committee” (whatever that is!). But getting down & dirty, doing the real ministry — BEING the hands & feet of Jesus?
Nope. Never did.
We came to Healing Place for a variety of reasons, but we were dazzled by the polished appearance & air of excellence. The lights & music were stunning to us. These things brought us in… to hear the REAL MESSAGE of Healing Place Church:
“To be a healing place for a hurting world.”
Pastor Dino Rizzo spelled it out, plain and simple: “It’s not about you. It’s not about us. It’s about THEM and those who are yet to come.”
And here I sit, 5 short years later, and I wonder what hit me.
NOW
I am giving roses to strippers and prostitutes.
NOW
I am working in the inner city, feeding the poor, clothing the homeless, encouraging women whose lives are so discouraging.
I LOVE doing the “Messy Church” stuff now, but I highly doubt that I would have ever reached this point if it had not been for the “pretty church” which drew me in.
It’s all fine and good to be idealistic about how people SHOULD feel and how people SHOULD respond, but it’s not necessarily REALISTIC.
The truth is that Jesus was willing to go wherever He had to go — pretty or messy — to reach His flock. We should be willing to do the same.
well said ms. kelly, well said
we use our very, very pretty ‘youth center’ for specific things other than youth activities:
1) free child care on weekdays to over 150 kids from 6am to 7 pm and,
2) a night shelter 7 nights a week
3) a food pantry – open 10 hrs/day, ever day
4) a hot meal location when the temp reaches 40 or below at night
5) free healthcare 2 days a week w/ 4 pediatricians giving their time free, and 2 gen practitioners
6) free counselling services 3 days a week – you guessed it – it’s free
and yep, all of our pretty Body driving their pretty cars from their pretty houses in their pretty clothees sporting pretty jewley fund ever bit of it (and also work those hours to keep it open) – above and beyond their contributions to the Body.
i will say this – it’s not just pretty it’s absolutely BEAUTIFUL –
again – braod statements from people who have absolutely no idea what churches do outside of their own need box should not make disparing comments about pretty and glamour
We need the “pretty church” for “entry level Christianity”?
While it labors under the banner of “cultural relevancy” the modern “pretty church” bears too striking a resemblance to the shallow business/political/military structures of this age. It is for this reason they don’t have any profound or lasting impact on the culture.
The modern “techniques” used by the “pretty church” are as worldly as the system they’re supposed to deliver people from. The Gospel has become trivialized, commercialized and emptied of it’s power. It’s been diluted as just another “product” in our consumer obsessed culture.
In short, the modern “pretty church” of modern pop-christian culture bears very little similarity to the simple, Spirit-dependent, Christ-centered, spiritually dynamic, mutually participatory communities of the 1st century CHURCH…The very CHURCHES that turned the world upside-down…Acts 17:6
well – i think ms. kelly needed it – as she testified above
again – broad statements from people who have absolutely no idea what churches do outside of their own need box should not make disparing comments about pretty and glamour
@ tony:
1. I don’t even remotely think that professional, glamorous, or staff are in any way, shape, or form a “put down” to anyone. If I heard of anyone refering to me that way I might actually take it as a compliment!
2. I have a great deal of broad first hand experience/knowledge of what many churches are doing and what their budgets look like. It is an informed opinion, although biased one.
3. I think that what your church is doing is great!!! We need MORE examples in the kingdom of this kind of proactive Chtristianity!
4. My hunch is that the budget for “operations” still far outweighs the budget for “global humanitarian efforts”.
5. My comments are not meant to disparage anyone, but rather to offer a moment to reflect on what may very well be a staggering hypocrisy within the church.
WOW! This is something I have REALLY have a burden on my heart for!!! Not pretty Church… but , Messy Church! I feel like God is Preparing me for Ministering in some way, To people who Need to see God’s Love with Flesh on. I REALLY felt this call one day when i was going somewhere for an everyday errand and the Song by Brandon Heath called ” Give Me your Eyes” It was then that i knew that was Part of my calling. I am in a waiting period right now though. But that doesnt me i cant do other things for him in this regard, but, the Big thing i feel waiting for me, it isnt time for, either because i am not ready, or it isnt God’s timing. Well, i dont know why i poured all this out on here, but this is just something i REALLY feel passionate about.
drho -” 2. I have a great deal of broad first hand experience/knowledge of what many churches are doing and what their budgets look like. It is an informed opinion, although biased one.”
if there are over 200k churches in the US alone (whi kows how many) – how many do you really know anything about, maybe less than 200 or so? – especially their budgets.
my point is this – broad, sweeping statements have absolutley no relevance whatsoever. if you state that that is your opinion, that’s great – but admittedly biased broad statements are simply fodder – not factual in any sense of the word
@Tony:
Actually, it would be more like 2,000+ which is about 1% of what you’re talking about. That percentage is usually what polls rely on to determine probable facts in journalism. So to say, not as much of a stretch on my part to make a somewhat factual broad sweeping statement. It’s far from “fodder”. My bias only exists in that I strongly believe that churches overspend on stuff and staff, not the real needs of her people and those who could be.
This issue alone is hugely relevant, and their are many sides and stories – all of them bearing weight on the conversation about the state and future of Christianity in America. I would be careful about passing off anyone’s comments/statements here as being irrelevant.
I don’t really understand why you seem to be strongly attempting to discredit me in this public discourse (4 different times), or my simple statements? Did I make you angry in some way?
I came back to read the comments after I left mine and I am astounded by the reaction about the “pretty church.” Somehow the baby gets thrown out with the bath water in this scenario.
Because we want to do something fun, exciting, new, adventurous, daring and in tune with the culture its bad and wrong and not of the Lord. I strongly disagree with that statement!!
I’m gonna be bold now and make a statement that will offend some and Anne if you want to take it off, please it will not offend me because this is how I truly feel.
1.) It’s much MORE glamourous to say I feed the poor and I go on missions trips and I serve the homeless. It’s more glamorous to shout “I don’t take anything for myself, I only give to people.” That’s kinda what’s being said and you know? People look at those statements and their reaction is probably the same across the board. “Whoa, look at that person, they are so humble and serve God with everything they have.” When really, that’s not the reaction/response God has asked of his Church, because it is false humility.
2.) Its not as glamourous to say, hey, we want to be relevant and serve the poor at the same time, so we are going to pay our pastors fairly so that they can serve their families first (making sure they are healthy) BEFORE we give his/her salary to the poor. Yikes! I think it’s interesting that people have made statements making claim that paying a pastor is taking away from feeding the poor or doing ministry in some way. WHAT?! :(
3.) If that pastor is a leader, enabling, teaching and leading others, his/her impact spreads across generations, ultimately impacting the cause for Christ. But, if that person, (if they are not gouging the church as part of their salary package) should be respected and treated just like every other human being. Saying that because a church has a well functioning staff is overspending in ways that it shouldn’t to me overlooks the enabling others. We have to eat, drink, breathe, have medical attention just like any other person and if our own people are not healthy, then how can the church be of service to others? You can only help others if you are healthy yourself.
4.) Because churches’ across the globe have different focuses, means budgets are going to be different. So, one church might find it more their mission to encourage youth in their community, so their missions efforts wouldn’t weigh as heavily (what seems to be said here, if that this is a bad thing). Missions ARE important, but the Lord gave two commands that were repeated as his main commands:
a.) Love the Lord your God
b.) Love your neighbor
If a church is doing these things, no matter what neighbor they chose to focus on is fulling the will of the Lord.
Sorry for typos and incomplete/incoherent sentences as I’m typing at work in between stuff!
no anger whatsoever, and no attempt at all to discredit you – but really, c’mon now, 1% is not even statistically valid in any form or fashion. actually there are more than 350k churches in the US – so it’s down to .6% now
my point simply continues to be that people make these huge, broad sweeping statements to discredit others and that they ‘know’ this or that – in reality they are just stating an opinion based on non-founded emotions and biases.
i’m all for opinions but broad statements that bash certain groups are just not justifiable and as shown by the numbers you provided have littel meaning. but i will completely agree with you that you have done work with less than 1% (closer to 1/2 of 1%) of the churches in the US and you are basing your opinion on that sample. and that 2,000 churches is a lot of churches
Try Gary Lamb’s post on 12 Dec here … http://www.garylamb.org/2008/12/12/two-types/ … “I?ll take reaching lost people over being cool any day of the week.”
Why can’t we be relevant while reaching people?
In our modern day traditional American church we have abandoned a relational, family structure and embraced a corporate, business model for the Church. We have shifted to an organizational model and not an organism model.
Do models matter? Yes, they do. If you attempted to run your family like a business it would change the dynamic of your family. Decisions would be made to benefit the business first and the concept of family would become lost in the new corporate structure of your home.
“Sorry son, you know I love you- like a son- but George here has doubled his last quarter sales goal so I’m giving him your room. If you get your sales up next quarter I’m sure we can get you back in the top bunk.”
God’s design for His Church is important. If we are dying for community it’s because we’ve abandoned a relational form of Church. If we see our pastors burn out and fall away it’s because we’ve twisted God’s relational plan for His Church into a one-man show. If our churches are unfriendly and cold it’s because we have forsaken a family approach and embraced a corporate structure.
If we’re really interested in following God’s Word, it’s important for us to listen to what it says, and to put these things into practice.