remember this post?
yeah. i pretended that the fighting and drama going on there didn’t matter.
freedom of speech.? woohoo.
let the people who can’t act responsibly, regardless of their viewpoint, look stupid.? that’s their own problem.? if they want to fight, that’s their prerogative.
however, i realized it is larger than their problem.? it is all of our problem, and as the rightful owner of this blog, it was my responsibility to shut that post down.
i emailed several friends – both real-life friends and online ones (as well as some twitter strangers) – who aren’t believers.? we have explorers, semi-buddhists, atheists, and those who have left the faith, and i asked them to simply skim the comments and let me know if they represented:
love
joy
peace
patience
kindness
goodness
faithfulness
gentleness
self control.
==
everyone of them came back with a resounding “no.” and they weren’t at all surprised. evidently some of us are known not for our love for each other but for our hypocrisy.? our stubborn disagreements.? our closemindedness – regardless of where our theology is.
if we are so concerned about “evangelism” — about reaching people with the gospel, the truth, the hope, the life, the love of christ — it is the holy spirit working that touches people, right?? that same holy spirit that dwells in us, right?
just in case you haven’t studied that list of words above – the love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self control – those would be the fruits of the spirit.
evidence of our obedience and allowing him to guide us.
guess what?
the people who are supposed to see that in us?
they didn’t.
massive failure.
==
instead, they saw the opposite.
hate
anger
anxiety
impatience
rudeness
bitterness
disloyalty
roughness
impulsivity
==
most of you read the comments (they’re all gone now, sorry, even the encouraging ones).
would you disagree with my friends’ analysis?
==
yesterday i spent some time with the staff at healing place church.? pastor dino rizzo was talking about the future of the church during our lunch meeting.
he said something to the effect of “we have no right to be cynical about the church.? the church is doing great things.? we only have reasons to celebrate.? this is the best time to be church.”
like a stilletto to my stomach, i thought back on that post and most of the subsequent comments.? when i finally got a chance to get on my computer this morning (i’m at the memphis airport on a layover), i was nauseous that the “discussion” was still going.
so i killed it.
it’s dead.
and if there is ever another mean-spirited comment on my blog from now on, IT WILL BE DELETED.
i don’t care if you disagree with me.? or if you disagree with others.? disagreement happens. that’s cool.
but if there is an ounce of devisiveness in your tone, your comment will be deleted.
if that new rule, the only rule that has ever been or ever will be enforced on this blog pisses you off, don’t read my blog anymore.
go fight somewhere else.
this blog will ONLY be about love.
cynicism is no longer allowed.
Comments
107 responses to “i can’t stand my perry noble post!”
Anne,
As always your transparency and willingness to be candid and real are extremely refreshing.
I hate that about you.
;)
I approve this message…
good on you.
i made my snarky comment and moved on, but its sad to see that the comments apparently mushroomed into something worthy of changing your approach to how you write/post/run your blog.
and i guess i should say:
i’m as full of hypocrisy as anyone that i point a finger towards. i bitch, moan, and rail against all the bad things that “the church” does, and rarely claw my eyes out because of the example my own life sets.
Amazing! Once again you are leading something great. Props for your stand.
“we have no right to be cynical about the church…”
man! that’s some butt-kickin’ truth. you’re setting a good example anne.
[applause]
Anne, you are my hero.
Good call, Anne. Went back this morning to see the comments on this post and found nothing. You and I shared some thoughts about another pastor that has gotten a bad wrap from me but God is blessing in huge ways. It is HIGH TIME we have the guts to really live our faith. Thanks for pressing that issue!
Anne,
It is because of posts like this one that you have become one of my favourite bloggers. Good on you to take control and set ground rules.
Well said, Anne. And I couldn’t agree with you more. Thank you for having the courage to do this.
On another note, SO enjoyed doing outreach with you last night! Hope you can join us again when we take MIDNIGHT to New Orleans…
“we only have reasons to celebrate” – that is the message that everyone needs to get. thank you for sharing and for removing the comments.
Dear Wormwood
Drat! She is on to you and all that work we did – for nothing it seems. 180+ posts of inner-bickering and snickering and snide, mean comments and dare I say “HATE” – it’s all GONE! We had them where we wanted them…
You got over-confident nephew. You need to watch that.
This particular patient is brighter than some.
Your affectionate uncle
SCREWTAPE
P.S. Anne – your blog is great. That other post spiraled so far outta control… I think you made a wise, wise choice and I applaud your method of coming tot hat decision. Don’t let anyone else know ole Unk Screwtape has a soft side…
{hugs} you do great things, Sister!
Awesome!
Anne,
You’re cool!!
That is awesome.
OUCH!–That we miss the mark, not that you called us on it. Thanks for reminding us that we are being watched..and even if we aren’t we have been called to something higher than what we often settle at.
That’s pretty much the rule at my blog too, and I’ve found that if that’s the tone that’s set, then not that many comments end up needing to be deleted.
Every single one of your friends were right on in their assessment of that disgusting situation. It was so painful to read and embarrassing.
You did the right thing, as you well know. Thanks for continuing to be an inspiration to me and others.
Hey Anne,
Sorry I called some guys losers and keyboard warriors and sucky on your blog post. What I meant to say was that they are my brothers in Christ, I love them, and respect the opinions they have. I have this thing where I say what I’m feeling sometimes and it causes my fingers to type stuff they shouldn’t! :) Please pray for my fingers.
Keep pushing forward! You’re the bomb!
Shaun
Awesome. Thank you!
You are a wise woman. I cleaned up sections of my blog a year ago for similar reasons.
Rock on, Anne. Your courage and faith are inspiring. Amazing. I love you!
Sean B. — me too, she’s an awesome example to follow, reminding me that I need to be one, too!
Mitch — umm yeah, don’t think I’ll be sitting today!
I think this is an EXCELLENT idea.
I know you don’t need me to be proud of you but I am! It’s your blog and I’m glad you took back control of this positive space.
Keep up the great work and never grow tired of doing good!
YES!!!!
I didn’t read any of the comments (had a feeling it wouldn’t bring about much good)…but I’m glad to see people like you and Los reminding us what we should represent as Christians. The sad truth is, moderated or not, we’re all hypocrites, whether it’s seen or not. Thank God for redemption.
It’s sad that people seem to think they can say anything they want when they’re sitting behind a pretty anonymous medium like a computer. I wonder if folks would really be that nasty in real life (I’m sure some would). For that reason, I’ve always been guarded with what I say via the internet (especially in comments sections).
Grace and peace, Anne.
Anne –
Was wondering when that decision would come and am glad that it did. GREAT JOB! *applause* Glad you drew the line.
Refreshing, Gut-checking, Honest, Full of Integrity. All that roled up into one phenomenal blog post. Many kudos to you!
Yippee!
My little blog is not very well read, and when I saw the discussion on your PN post, I thought maybe I wasn’t doing the right thing by moderating the comments. Anway, thanks for setting me straight!
P.S. I know of quite a few people who are ordering shoes who haven’t ordered yet. Hope that helps!
hmmm…I am trying to see how I can say anything against what you said. Not coming to me!
You are truly an inspiration…your openness and willingness to share, even when it is “harsh” is great! I love that verse in Philippians too.
You are awesome! Keep it up!
I love it when you get fired up!!! You said what needs to be said.
I agree with your decision, but I would like to say one thing in our defense – that is in defense of those who follow Christ:
We argue. We are prideful. We are snide, and mean and childish. We are many things but one word sums it up: Human. We are human.
So if I am accused of being a hypocrite I agree. I say YES I am, and I don’t want to be I’m sorry. That is /why/ I follow Jesus. Because I know I can’t do this on my own.
I need him. We all need him. :-)
I feel sad when people expect Christians to be perfect.
Glad you wrote this.
Glad you changed the rules.
Wish, in this little Christian blog community, this wasn’t necessary. But it is.
thank you.
Nicely done!
This is great to hear Anne!
While I actually didn’t read the post you described (because I don’t know who Perry is) I thought about some of my posts. While I still have my opinions, sometimes instead of talking about it to the entire blog universe, I need to either find a solution to that issue I have with the church, or move on. Either way, I’m able to put a “deadline” on my frustrations which will in turn allow myself to be less bitter in the long run.
We all like to “stew” on our frustrations…I was thinking about how we as Christians don’t come across as loving and peaceful people. Hmmmm….that makes me sad, but I agree a lot of times! I’m not perfect or absent being a representative of that accusation, but as a functioning whole, non-christians don’t like “us” because we aren’t that nice to be around, frankly.
I’ve been the recipient of some of that yucky behavior and have probably been guilty as well. That’s why I get frustrated with the Church. Not an excuse, but an answer to “why” there are strong reactions. We all are people, nothing changes that and so it makes it difficult (although we should be much better at this) to not express our humanness in our comments.
I wish I was better than that and I work on it! If we all stuck to the 2 main things Jesus wanted from us we would have fewer issues, more dialogue and a whole lot more churches overflowing with people hungry to be a part of why we LOVE the Lord.
1.) Love the Lord your God
2.) Love others
I admit to the blog universe I am not perfect, I am in no means better than you and I suck sometimes in how I’m feeling and express it. Please realize I am hurt by people just like everyone else, get frustrated and bitter like everyone else and have a tendency to feel the need to share that (like a lot of people). But I also think my joy should be greater, my love should be wider and my dedication should be deeper because of where my roots are planted. Somewhere, we’re missing this portion.
Thanks Anne for your honesty and self-reflection shared worldwide so that we can become better at being who God created us to be in His image.
I have no idea who Perry Noble is and had never even heard of him before you posted on him so I didn’t bother to read your comments. But I do think what you are saying about the blog and fruit of the spirit is so true.
You know it is so easy to sit back at home on the internet and criticise what ever ministry, church, pastor or whatever who is doing visible stuff in the Kingdom, but do we actually stop and take a look at what we’re doing ourselves? I know this is my challenge as I’m not involved in ministry at the moment while I recover from my accident. I think before I was sometimes too busy to think about all the things I didn’t like and I was just getting on with what God wanted me to do. I’m enjoying this time of navel gazing a little as I think it’s part of God’s plan for me, but I think we have to guard our thoughts and I love your reminder of the fruit of the spirit.
I’m just looking at the post above as I write this and am challenged by the first two commandments on there, surely we should all stop and think about those when we are posting comments that could be read by anyone on the internet (including non-believers).
love.
Thank you, Anne, for putting your foot down. The church has a (deserved) reputation for always fussing and fighting and the church blogosphere, because of the relative anonymity, is exponentially worse. I am frequently ashamed to be a blogger who is a Christian. I REALLY appreciate your saying “as for me and my blog, we will be a part of the solution, not the problem.”
I love your blog and am so grateful for you and your ministry!
oh boy. I have no idea who that Perry Noble guy is, never read the comments in the post. Curious as to what happened, but I’m sure I really don’t need to know.
We really do need to watch what we say, how we act…
Ummmm…sorry? Don’t think my short comment was really hateful, but regardless I support your new rule 100000000000%
:)
I am just shocked that there are actually people who do not know who Perry Noble is. Not being mean spirited at all, of course, but really?? Seriously??
Isn’t it enough just to SAY I’m loving before I unload on you? Stupid fruits of the Spirit… ;-)
Great reminder of what being “Christian” is all about…
Loving. Gentle. Respectful. Disagreeing, without being disagreeable…
I was hoping you would shut it down! Well done :)
p.s. The fruit of the Spirit is singular, even though there are nine of them. Weird, but true. So they aren’t different fruits, just one. Kinda like a Naked Juice?
good for you, sistah!!!
Interesting comment @Ryan G about the singular “fruit” comment….
I wonder…are all these supposed to be exhibited in our daily walks or are some of us given more of one gift to emphasize and be a blessing to people in a certain arena….that’s a big call! But I’m gonna research that one a little!
Hallelujah.
Father God, I ask for you to pour out your favor on all those who took offense and railed against your Bride. My heart aches for them! Flood them with your love, with your mercy, with your grace and with your peace. Give them no choice Lord but to see You for who you are and call you Glorious! Father, I long to be one with all of your children, including those who criticize and condemn. I want to be an answer to Jesus’ prayer! Fill us all with your love. In Jesus precious and beautiful name! Amen!
cynicism is no longer allowed.
I am cynical as to whether that will be true or not. Or is that skeptical. Are they the same?
Will what I just said be censored?
What if you love cynicism? Would that be about love?
If the blog is for outsiders, atheist, buddhists and what not. When they comment will they have to exhibit the fruit of the spirit? It may be difficult for them since they don’t have it. Are only Christians allowed to comment from now on?
I need some sort of grace period here . . . that was two cynical posts in a row.
Amen! Good for you!
Anne…
I admire/respect/ and appreciate your stand.
I have to ask you though, for the sake of asking what has led you to believe that taking this stance is going to solve any problems? I know you’ve said that you want to be part of the solution and not part of the problem but, what if being part of the problem IS part of the solution?
I spend a significant amount of time with bitter, cynical people actually, most of my time is spent with those people because they happen to be a lot more honest with themselves and those around them then most others. One of their number one gripes is that they wish folks who affiliate themselves with Christianity would just admit that they are stubborn, bitter, cynical folks and that they are not much different, from a personality stand point then most, they just have a hard time admitting it.
So I ask, is keeping those qualities outside of your blog (which by the way, I am completely in favor of…this is your intellectual property and you have absolutely every right to control it however you see fit) the solution or, is it just prolonging the problem? We have to be able to admit first and foremost that their IS a problem and the sad reality is most of us can not. I have no problem saying I am probably one of the most bitter, cynical individuals I know. Hurt by many INCLUDING the church and the people that call themselves followers of Christ yet, I keep on trucking. I know that some of the things I say, some of the things I do, some of the thing I post are going to cause other bitter, angry, hateful, cynical thoughts to come to fruition but, is not the first step in healing in any 12 step program first admitting the problem and getting it out in the open? When I publish a post that is cynical it is not just so I can say mean things it is so a conversation can begin and others who have been feeling the same way now don’t feel so bad about their feelings.
Anyway, take it for what it’s worth, you know that I have a deep respect for you, even having never met you. You do incredible things for the kingdom, and your new “rule” isn’t going to keep me from being a part of the flowerdust community, I just want you to know that some of us “bitter, cynical” types are the way we are because for far too long the conversation about what makes us what/who we are hasn’t been able to carry on because too many are upset by it. – Just something to chew on.
Well done Anne! It’s just not worth it. You’ll sleep better tonight.
Here’s what I find amazing:
1. You write a controversial post
(these are, btw, going to forevermore be called “Perrys” in your honor)
2. People expose their self-centered, sin nature in commenting
3. You humbly seek to respond in a Christlike fashion.
4. This shows more Jesus to your readers than if you had not posted the “Perry” to start with.
Does that make sense? You share transparently your journey with us. And even your trips through the Valley of Death help us see God. Hooray for Romans 8:28, and for you.
You Go! Seriously, it breaks my heart when people who do not know the Lord come back and say that they saw no evidence of the fruit of the spirit in the comments of those who call themselves Christians. We Quench the Spirit when we act this way. I am so glad you did this. I did the same thing and I am so glad I did. Because my goal is to show the Love of Christ that lives in me and I hope to expound that upon others so that they may know Him. There is a difference between stating an opinion/constructive criticism and hatefulness. There is a way to speak your beliefs with grace and love….even if you don’t agree with the author.
Have a great weekend Anne.
Dang Girl!!!
Well said…..and amen!
You go, girl! I completely agree. I read the comments, until I just couldn’t bear it anymore. I began to see, once again, why people think Christians are hypocrites. It’s very sad. I’m sad to say that I see this kind of thing on quite a few blogs read by those professing to be Christians. It’s hateful and a shame.
In the light of what you got to experience yesterday and what I’ve seen on the streets around here, it makes round-and-round, get-the-last-word-in-regardless comments so stupid. There are so many better ways to use one’s time. Like, uh, talking with a stripper or a poor family.
oops. was that derogatory? sorry. I didn’t think about it. rats.
“they will know you are disciples by your mean, hateful, and rude comments”
wait that dosent sound right????????
I am being cynical and can’t seem to get deleted! Argggh…
Anne,
I respect your decision because this is your blog and, as such, you should control it in the manner you deem appropriate. People may not agree but as you mentioned, they also do not have to visit.
I haven’t been blogging long so I don’t know all the ins and outs of blogging etiquette or even if there is such a thing. I get no where near the volume of comments or visits that you receive so I don’t have many worries about controlling responses by other people. I have only had to ‘edit’ a response one time and only because the person’s motivations were clearly not in line with the content of the post the response was attached to. I left a response for that person explaining my actions in a loving and respectful way.
Why do I share this? Because I struggle with understanding the purpose and function of blogs. We (bloggers) post our thoughts, ideas, and our very selves out into cyberspace thus exposing our very core to scrutiny. And there at the bottom of the post is the section where people can comment on what they perceive we have submitted. Sometimes its positive and other times it is negative. Sometimes they get the gist of what is we meant to portray and sometimes they completely miss the point. It is a microcosm of humanity – in all its forms.
I read the article that this post refers to and submitted a comment based on my understanding/questions from said article. I did this before reading the other comments that had already been submitted.. some 160 or so. I came back at a later time and noticed that someone seemed to be upset with my comment and, at that time, decided to read through the rest of the comments to see where the passion was coming from.
The hardest thing to understand when reading words on a screen is the motivation behind the words. We don’t know the person submitting them in many cases and we can’t read their body/facial expressions as we would be able to do in a face-to-face conversation. So many times, we project what we think or want their motivations to be. That is one of the hardest things about figuring out blogdom is about. It appears to be a good discussion forum until people break down to rhetoric and abuse.
The comments that I read in the previous article were diverse and varied. Some appeared to be about promoting discussion while others were about tearing down. Each reader is going to see the same thing from their own world-view. What you or I may think as a positive discussion, another may find negative. And vice versa.
I think we missed out on some very good discussion points in your article because people allowed their emotions to run ahead of their intellect.
I hope that did not seem so much as rambling as trying to reach a point that we should be able to disagree with one another and still be agreeable in nature. Some of the greatest moments in my learning process have come at the cost of me admitting that my way of thinking was wrong or incomplete. I am not and will never be completely right in my thinking this side of heaven. And neither will anyone else that comes to any blog.
Faithfulness is a fruit of the spirit that allows for us to continue in good faith even when we don’t see eye-to-eye. I am faithful to my Lord – just as you are – and hopefully, just as your readers are that claim christianity.
NOW.. onto this post.
Church is such an interesting topic ;)
I have read some interesting books this past summer that many would call cynical against the church – Gabe Lyon’s unChristian… Francis Chan’s Crazy Love … Henderson & Caspar’s Jim and Caspar go to Church. All three raise questions about how we as brothers and sisters in Christ are perceived by the unchurched world.
Do we have things that we can celebrate in the church body – ABSOLUTELY. Should we be self reflective in the light of God’s word to see if we need to better align ourselves to His will – ABSOLUTELY.
I am very analytical.. maybe overly so. Please forgive me my compunction to evaluate things and pose questions – they are not meant as an attack but to bring about discussion and better understanding (for me).
How did Dino qualify these statements? “we only have reasons to celebrate. this is the best time to be church.?
By the way, I don’t know Dino or his church so I have no predetermined thoughts or feelings about the statements beyond the curiosity that I posted with that one question.
Peace & Love.
Thank-you for this. Your have inspired me to stand in front of the people of my church on sunday and confess my simular sin to the congregation. Please pray for me.
Glad to see you establishing your boundaries here – and not tolerating what you deem to be “mean-spirited” cynicism.
On the other hand, though – this emotion you have brewing about these “mean-spirited” cynics (killing their comments; and initiating a new law against cynicism/crticism) seems to be a bit harsh, but it is your blog and you make the rules here. Though it does seem to me as a retaliation back at those who anger you so much.
I wonder what angers them so much? What would they like to see outlawed and/or killed? Why are we so interested in choosing sides in the Church? Why aren’t we allowed to simply be/say who we really are here, or anywhere without being branded as outsiders? Why do we so often marginalize people we don’t like? Why can’t we simply accept others as they come (messiness included), without trying to “prune” them to fit into our “clubs”?
They know we are Christians by our self-righteous, uncanny ability to reject people.
Right on Anne. I’ve had several stupid comments that I’ve had to delete from my blog for those same reasons. I know that I have friends, family and random people who read my blog and would hate to help contribute to the hateful/vengeful/bitter image that Christianity has received at the hands of so many stupid people.
Sometimes it’s best to just delete the stupid comments and hope the people who posted them get the hint and take a hike.
Hey I am just the new girl reading your blog Anne, but I like it already :)
I read the post but not the comments. I read Perry’s blog regularly as well as Tony Morgan and Los and several others that I met through your Compassion Uganda trip. I thought your post was amazingly honest and a great example of how we learn and grow through the Holy Spirit’s guidance. I don’t understand how anyone could find fault with that or dare to use the comment section to go off on other people and think it would be ok. Sorry you had to put your foot down, but I think it was the right decision. Keep up the good work!
@Ryan Guard,
Fruit is also used in plural context. You shop for fruit even when you are picking up several types from the store. Much like the word deer can refer to one deer or many deer.
Very refreshing insight and I appreciate your boldness. I cringe when this or that church criticizes or is cynical about the work another church is doing. I appreciate as well you reminding all of us that the most important aspect and characteristic of a follower of Christ – love.
Applauding you from Motown.
Anne, you are stripping me of every ounce of pride and hypocrisy. Your letter to Joel Osteen? My word! how many, many people do I need to say something like that to? Thanks for your transparency. You are directly influencing my walk with God in a positive way, and I appreciate it more than you know.
Anne,
I laud you. The influence of your blog will increase! There’s something about acts of the sinful nature (hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions, Gal. 5:19) that destroy and kill. Even on a blog! Your willingness to be transparent and courageous is refreshing.
Anne Jackson rocks in many, many dimensions.
I didn’t read the comments, but I totally trust your judgement and am glad the love-only rule has now been applied.
BTW, isn’t leading a life in accordance with the fruits of the spirit important enough for its own sake? I realize the importance of setting a good example on public blogs in the name of evangelism, but think an even better reason to treat others with love is that it’s what God wants us to do..
NO FAIR – I don’t know what is going on….I missed the whole tissy fit……..I guess my sad life will continue….I don’t even know who Perry Noble is….
I do know who Perry Noble and Newspring are….I live in there community…..I was also stabbed in the back and run off from a “church” by a “pastor” who idolizes Perry and Newspring….this experience has sent me searching for the real CHURCH for a year now…..The Vineyard has helped with some healing and the Simple/organic Church gatherings in homes that we have started attending are awesome!!! and spiritual and interactive!!!! and no $$$ are required for the show!!!!! It seems that these type of simple Christ centered gatherings were the NORM in the Early Church…see Acts 2:42-47…….So why is the modern “church” SO far from the picture of the CHURCH we see in the N.T.?????
So theres my story and why I was drawn to comment on the “Perry” :) Still hurting and cynical somewhat from my experiences with the “seeker” church…..I apoligize!!!!
I do appreciate You and your blog Anne, I think the Mad Church disease book looks great!!!! but why, after being rail-roaded by organized religion, are you still on-staff in an organized “church”???? I’m very curious to find this out, and I will be reading more from your blog since I am a newcomer!!!!
Be Blessed!!!
Hi Anne… Thank you for your blog with its challenge to converse in the first place, but especially to do so in a manner worthy of our calling. :)
77@EROPPER:
you hit it when you ask why the modern church is so far away from the church in Acts. I read somewhere that the “norm” for the church in the USA is a smaller church of less than 200 people – don’t know if those stats are true or not but it’s always been easier for me in a smaller church. My fam presently goes to a larger church now & I sometimes really miss not knowing most of the people.
Didn’t go to church at all during the very late 1980s and 1990s and then when I started again in 2000 I was almost blown away by the cultural change that had taken place. The gospel hasn’t changed & I still wonder why we have changed the church – sometimes I think so we will fit in more…I don’t know really. I mostly force myself to not indulge those thoughts on how right or wrong the church is today. I try to do what I’m supposed to do knowing that if I sit and analyze what is wrong then I loose my bearings. I had my come-to-Jesus time in front of the TV watching…sit down…Jim & Tammy Baker. I can’t criticize or even laugh at how others do church if you know what i mean. Probably most reading this blog are to young to know who they are even….even still nice memories.
Sweet!
I can’t stand Anne Jackson! [whoops!] JK. I got nothing but luv for ya, Anne.
STANDING O. Well done.
I have to agree with you here. It seems to have gotten ridiculous lately. I’ve been personally attacked several times on my own blog in the last few weeks by Annonymous commenters (which I shouldnt allow at all). Why do people have to be so mean-spirited? Cah-razy.
–Terrace Crawford
http://www.terracecrawford.com
http://www.twitter.com/terracecrawford
Great Job Anne…
David
Oh and to the Pastor who was shocked the people didn’t know who Perry Noble was… well I live on the other side of the world to the States and though we’re probably too saturated in US culture (Christian and non) we don’t know every big name person in your country, sometimes because they probably just wouldn’t connect with us so well, sometimes because that person in particular hasn’t focused worldwide. I’m sure I could rattle of a bunch of people that I really respect in Ministry from Australasia that you wouldn’t know as well and I wouldn’t be rude that you didn’t…. I’m just saying…. :-)
Amen to kazzles! Here’s to all the international readers, like myself! (yes Anne, your influence goes that far..)
yep -a bit ugly it was. however, when you post a controversial topic you get some really interesting dialogue going on. it’s definitely interesting book fodder
i understand your decision but will honestly miss what people have to say- mean and otherwise-simply because it shows how real ‘mad church disease’ is (author -anne jackson, publisher – zondervan, ok, do i have to pay you a royalty for that?)
what i’m trying to say is that i have seen several books in the making from the comments, but if you decide it’s too harmful then—-
cupcakes to you!
[so, should i ask for forgiveness for my fat pastor, big giver’s banquet posts? :) ]
Anne, remember our email exchange regarding deleting certain comments? This is actually what I was talking about. What to do when comments are divisive or even slanderous is something I’ve battled. If I delete the comment is that “censorship”? If I allow it to stay, does it negate the positive I want to achieve by blogging in the first place? I’ve seen that happen to you, to Pete, to Tyler, to many others – we try to say “let’s just try to be loving, and here’s one way God’s working on me” and instead there is an argument.
That’s not what I want my blog to be about and I know it’s not what you want your blog to be about.
Kudos for having the guts to say “not here, not on my time, not in my space – I will not give you a platform to spread your anger and bitterness towards another member of the body of Christ.”
Anne, let us know how your visit to the strip club goes.
People are meaner on a blog then they would be in person and certainly meaner then they would be in either area if Jesus were standing right beside them.
We are all guilty of it at one time or another, this baby known as the Blog Sphere is still cutting it’s teeth and we are all learning how to act on the play ground. I think you can and should set any rule here that you feel keeps this blog what you want it to be. You do the work, this is your baby and if God is not getting glorified then it’s all crap anyway..
Opinions are like Butt holes, everybody’s got one, Lets try and keep the stench to a minimal :-)
Oh and I’d like to add to my comment above that I came looking for blogs on American church culture when it became apparent that I might end up moving to the States and I wanted to find out what things were like (because, quite frankly I was a bit scared). Anne I love your blog and I can’t wait for your book as I think it’s going to have a lot of relevance here to people who are getting burnt out in churches. You usually seem to seek to have a global view and it’s really encouraged me reading here that I might actually be able to fit in if I do move out.
I think it’s a tribute to you that you manage to attract people like myself and Saskia from outside of the States as quite frankly there are a lot of blogs that I wouldn’t read daily.
Well said, well done!!
pete – thanks for letting anne come down here and share so much of her passion for the Church with us. she was a blessing and i know that is at least in part a reflection of you and your church.
tony – i was in there when pastor dino said what he did to anne, and i can tell you this much: the context he said it in was not an oblivious “there’s not a single thing wrong with the Church today” at all. his point of view, however is that there’s so much right – so many churches doing so many good things – so much more going on to reach the world for Christ than ever before in history – so great a passion for the lost and forgotten and poor and hurting that Jesus cares for so much… it’s a great time – arguably the greatest era – to be alive and part of the body of Christ. IMHO there’s a lot of church-trashing and negativity about others and how they see ministry, and as a whole, it’s not healthy for the Church. the things we need to work on aren’t going to be fixed thru trashing each other. i believe that if we’ll concern ourselves with reaching out to those who don’t have the main thing (saving knowledge of Jesus) yet, we’ll find that our differences with each other seem a little (a lot?) less significant.
anne – thanks for taking the stand you have here. and again for taking the time to be here with us. you’re an inspiration on a ton of levels!
I’ve noticed that wherever I post or comment….NO ONE can or wants to answer the question of why the modern “church” is SOOOO far away from the picture of the “church” we see in the N.T…………….Acts 2:42-47 1 Corinthians 14:26 and more…..
Anne do you have a take on this??? Is it possible that instead of just people being flawed that the system of “church” as we know it is flawed also??????
see “Pagan Christianity?” by Frank Viola and George Barna……..Has anyone here read this book and do you have a take on it?????
@dan – i have no earthly idea what in the world you are talking about. dino?
Good decision. I find cynicism to be boring anyway.
Anne, this is why I love your blog. Just say it like it is. And I wholeheartedly agree. Love it, love it, love it and I can’t wait to get my hands on Mad Church Disease!
tony – sorry i should have put “Tony York” on my ref in my comment.. i was responding to the OTHER tony’s comment. my bad. sorry for the confusion.
Amen and Amen! :)
dan – i posted on your blog. good write-up on internet campuses bro
think about this – you use the internet (blog) to write about the internet (internet campuses) – cool
@dan ohlerking
Thanks Dan for filling in some of the blanks. It is much appreciated.
I would point out one thing, sometimes legitimate questions or concerns are viewed as ‘trashing’. I think that comes from a loyalty aspect that we hold to our earthly counterparts instead of to Christ. I am not saying that some ‘trashing’ did not go on – but I did not read all the responses on the previous post.
I am currently in a study with my bible fellowship class concerning the letters to the churches in Revelations. Every body of believers should be willing to evaluate their practices to those of the early church and how Christ addressed them.
That is not license for outsiders to cast stones at another congregation of believers because they don’t do everything the same way they do. However, we should also be willing to test whether our practices are biblically supported beyond “If they are for Christ, they aren’t against us.” How then would we deal with the Jim Joneses of the world?
In the letter to Ephesus, Christ commended them on their ability to discern the false prophets and for the works that their church was doing… but He also told them that they had left their first love. Paul was pretty clear in 1 Corinthians that without love, his works meant nothing.
I guess the point that I am trying to get across is there is a balance to this conversation… its not all “rah, rah, rah, go team go!!” and its not all “Let’s debate what Christ meant when He said this.” Somewhere between these extremes is a balance that would be beneficial for exhortation of the church body.
Peace.
Well said Tony York!!!! I believe dissent is a gift to the Church…….As long as the questions are presented in a loving manner……..
Will Young,
Interesting points. I agree that we all struggle at times with cynicism. Me too. I’m a pastor! But trust me, venting cynicism doesn’t actually relieve the pressure, it just feeds the monster. And while I think God’s okay with us venting whatever we are thinking and feeling, that’s mostly because he’s so much dang bigger than we are… bigger shoulders, bigger heart, eternal fuse. When we vent on other fragile humans, we can’t say “sorry, I’m just cynical… and letting me vent on you is part of the solution.” Right? The tender underbelly of our rough edges is a profound fragility. We get hurt. So God wants us to be gentle with each other, as far as its possible. Yes, Jesus was a blunt guy. But not blunt without love, and only as far as blunt was the best thing for the situation and for the people involved. I think you’d agree.
Peace.
I completely agree.
http://stephenstonestreet.wordpress.com/2008/12/08/loving-v-being-cynical/
WTG ANNE!
You are Just so real and Honest and Able to step back at reevaluate yourself! I commend you for being able to Do Publicly what a lot of others ( myself included until reciently) wont, or cant do! Your Awesome!
Anne, rock on for always being willing to always challenge yourself and others. This is also a gift of the Spirit. ;)
@ EROPPER:
When discussing the early beginnings of Christianity with my pastor, he attributed the smaller, house-gatherings to the fact that at the Acts 2 point of the story, the early church was under considerable persecution from Jewish authorities. Not only had they just recently been forced to leave Jerusalem (rather abruptly at that) and go live in more remote/rural cities or entirely different countries, but large gatherings would have been easier for Saul and his cronies to identify (plus it’s safe to assume that the early Jewish Christians that had fled from Jerusalem might have brought the first news of Christianity to the places they settled in, thus making for initially smaller gatherings). We also know from historical accounts that the Christians in Roman and Greek cities encountered much more persecution later on from the Roman government, which might account for the smaller groups mentioned in Paul’s later letters.
So I personally don’t think that there is anything inherently, Biblically wrong with large churches. We just all need to be aware of the different kinds of social/communal messiness that comes with various sizes of churches. Sometimes I think people who have been hurt by one size of church tend to idealize the opposite, thinking that if all churches were just more “this way”, then none of this bad stuff would ever happen to anyone. That is just not the reality of the world we live in. It has nothing to do with size and everything to do with choice.
I guess it depends on if we believe and understand Scripture to have an Apostolic Tradition for Church practice…..i.e. ….Is there things that are theologically and spiritually significant in the experience of the early Church….or are we free to “do church” in any way we choose to and as fallen humans we never fail to screw things up……… A Modern Pragmatic mindset definitely plays a part as well….where the “ends justify the means” or “if it works let’s do it that way” ….. “It working” in the modern “seeker church” seems to mean getting huge buildings with lot’s of people in them who seem to want to be entertained……..
But thanks Abi for your input…..I feel that discussing Ecclesiology with your “pastor” will definitely be a bit slanted……..because he will either conciously or unconciously defend his purpose for existence…… Although there is not a shred of Scriptural support for the “office” of a paid “senior Pastor” or the old Sunday morning Protestant Ritual….(The songs, sermon and offering)
@ EROPPER
As our discussion has moved past the point of this thread, I would be more than happy to email you my comments if you are interested in further converse. :)
[email protected]