i’m doing some research for something…
and similar to, but not as focused as my post “sex rules” (wow, did that one get a little crazy or what?)…
can boys and girls just be friends?
and to what extent?
if you’re married? single? how do you keep it healthy? without being legalistic?
what does it mean to “honor your marriage?”
do people shut down potentially thriving relationships because it’s with a member of the opposite sex? how is this approached differently between believers and those who aren’t (especially since divorce rates are identical to each other).
how is this looked at from the viewpoint of those not in america?
are all emotional or intellectual connections between members of the opposite sex potential hazards to their respective marriages?
how much investment or relationship can or should married members of the opposite sex have with each other?
all skate…just share your thoughts on as much or as little of this as you want…whatever they are.
Comments
134 responses to “can boys and girls just be friends?”
I am single and have many single guy friends however I am slow to form friendships with married men. I prefer to not be alone with them or linger on the phone….I don’t feel like our alone time honors their marriage. Also, I am awkward & guard my heart by making an effort to discuss thier wife…ridiculous I know! All that said I love my “guy” relationships they offer fresh prespective & fun!
let me throw this out here too – what does it mean to “honor your marriage?”
We knew a couple, and the wife of the couple had “guy friends.” She would visit these guys friends by herself. One time, the marriage of the couple wasn’t going so well. On one visit to her guy friend, the wife slept with the guy friend and got pregnant. Thus, was the end of the marriage.
I heard something on the radio yesteday, in fact, that spoke of statistics regarding people falling into an affair by being in a friendship with someone, that occurred within the context of an activity that didn’t involve the other spouse (could be a club, ministry, etc). This situation was one that led to affairs quite often, said the broadcast.
I believe that a wife or husband shouldn’t do ANYTHING that would cast doubt or mistrust into the marriage. Their lives should be an open book, and the time spent with people of the opposite sex should be in a group setting to provide accountability, and avoid any doubt.
i used to think so…
but lately, i’m not so sure anymore. my life has gotten increasingly complicated lately when it comes to this topic, and i’m beginning to think it’s just not possible to stay “just friends”
maybe outwardly so, but inside, in the heart… i don’t know anymore.
Never. Girls have cooties.
Just kidding.
First a generalized statement:
The more time you spend with a person, the more familiar and comfortable you become with them.
That’s not necessarily a bad thing. But, it also depends on the specific individuals in the relationship.
If you are prone to becoming very emotionally attached to people (in an unhealthy way) then it’s probably best to set up boundaries for yourself.
If you are prone to trampling over others’ emotions (they get attached and you have no clue) then it’s probably best to set some boundaries for yourself.
If you are prone to being great friends with people of the opposite gender then it’s probably best to set some boundaries for yourself.
If you are trying to JUST BE FRIENDS for a while before you go deeper in relationship then it’s probably best to set some boundaries for yourself.
If you are married and want to protect the stability of your marriage then it’s probably best to set some boundaries for yourself.
If you’re divorced and hitting the dating scene then its probably best to set some boundaries for yourself.
If you work in an office, factory, or car dealership then it’s probably best to set some boundaries for yourself (or any other workplace).
If you voted for Obama then it’s probably best to set some boundaries for yourself.
If you voted for McCain then it’s probably best to set some boundaries for yourself.
If you ate lunch today then it’s probably best to set some boundaries for yourself.
If you are breathing its probably best to set some boundaries for yourself.
Thanks for your honesty, anon. Others feel free to post anonymously if that encourages you to truly share your heart. I won’t look.
I have been married for 6 1/2 years. We got married very young (19) and when I first married, I thought the idea that I should suddenly ditch my guy friends was ridiculous. I remember something my mother said, though, that at the time offended me but makes more and more sense each year…
“If you have a close friendship with a man who is not your husband… you are looking for things in him that you should be looking for IN YOUR HUSBAND.”
While I don’t think it’s okay to make a blanket statement that, “Thou shalt not have friends who are members of the opposite sex” I do think that when you are married it can be tricky – even dangerous. My husband and I don’t have any hard and fast rules, but there have been times when friendships the other one has had have made us uncomfortable and we’ve verbalized that and dealt with it. The longer we’ve been married, the less male friends I’ve had and ‘ya know what? My mother was right. I look IN MY HUSBAND for things that I may have been finding elsewhere (and I’m not talking about anything sexual or even inappropriate).
Side note: I think having “couple friends” is something slightly different. I don’t think I would ever hang out with my friends’ husbands alone, though. That would be weird.
I’ve wondered about this myself. Even when it comes to lust. Some people counsel others to just look away from everything and everyone that’s a temptation… but somehow I can’t picture Jesus with blinders on, hands clapped over his ears, yelling “Lalala I’m not listening…).
Somehow he was able to have significant relationships with females (Mary, Martha, other Mary, others) without it being inappropriate. I think John Eldredge’s stuff is the pivotal issue here: We cannot take our primal questions to others to be answered / validated by them. So a guy’s question is “Do I have what it takes?” If that’s what the relationship is about, even a platonic one, it’s unhealthy. A woman is asking, “Am I captivating?” Again, bringing that question to a guy, even in a platonic way, is unhealthy. Is dangerous.
The scary thing is, we are not always aware of our true motivations. I think we find ways of dressing down these primal questions into a form of “sanctioned flirting.”
Anne, My wife and I work very hard to have mutual friendships. That means we mainly hang with couples…
As far as virtual relationships such as our (I consider you a friend) I make my social networking life completely open to Connie. She ay not know you, but she can check my e-mail, twitter, facebook et al at any point. She knows all the passwords.
To me “honoring” my marriage means that I will put every other human relationship below my marriage – so if Connie decided she did not want me to twitter anymore. I am done. If she asked me to I would cancel my account today. If she asked that I not talk to a certain female on the phone, I would set up caller-id-block that day. The key too is that I also trust her completely to know that if she asked me to do any of the above it would be because she has discerned something that I have not – she is my helpmate.
Early in our marriage Connie warned me that a female friends was “into me”. I laughed it off and thought she was crazy, but out of respect to Connie really watched myself. Just months later that same women got caught in an affair. She was looking for someone to have that affair with – my wife saw it coming…
So. I have a couple of rules.
1. I dont ride in the car with a women by ourselves.
2. I dont have phone conversations with women outside of work related topics.
3. i dont eat alone with any women besides my wife.
4. I cc or bcc Connie on any e-mail with a women that I think may be more personal in nature.
I may be over the top, but I would far rather be an over the top faithful husband than a lax cheater.
Great conversation!
Shawn
The simple answer is Yes. boys and girls can be friends…even if they are married. As a single guy, i have a few women i am friends with who i love dearly. some of them are even married. the healthy part is knowing where the line is of the relationship going to far. some people will say…i never want to get near that line so i don’t even allow myself to be close friends with someone of the opposite sex who is married. ok…fine. Some people don’t drink because of the temptation to get drunk. i respect that….
The point…maturity, knowing what reality is and being very aware of your weaknesses and strengths play into boys and girls being friends. There has to be a very mutual respect and a safety of knowing the relationship is stable and….most importantly….trustworthy. relationships ebb and flow so having a good grasp on what is happening is key. setting boundaries is also good so as to be on the more cautious side.
For those married women i’m friends with, i’m also friends with their husbands. it just makes sense.
My life puts me in different situations where i have to know where i stand with boys and girls being friends and coming to a place where i know who i am in all of this gives me the freedom to have very healthy relationships. All of my friends know where they stand with me. Without question or fear of anything happening that could be negative…
now…saying all of that. I’ve been married too and again…i have some very close women in my life that are or were single during that time. Building trust is huge in this area no matter what and still…it worked out fine.
i have a feeling our free world would not function quite as well if we didn’t give ourselves the freedom to be friends with the opposite sex. it is possible to do this without things leading to affairs.
great questions…i could go on and on…
When I was single, I had a ton of guy friends. It was awesome to hear their perspective on issues such as dating, social injustice, our relationship with the Lord Etc. And even as a married woman, I still enjoy male friendships….however I NEVER hang out with them one on one.
To honor your marriage means to me means to never compromise the state of your union that you have together and that you promised before God. So, if I were friends with a male and my husband ever, at any point, felt uncomfortable with our friendship….it would have to end. Period. It sounds harsh but I would much rather hurt my friend’s feelings than my husband’s. To break his heart would mean to hurt my family and to dishonor God. I saw this happen in my parents house when my dad became friends with a woman who clearly wanted to be more than friends. Instead of breaking it off with his “friend” when my mom expressed her concern, he began to hide the fact that he was talking to her or even buying her presents for her birthday or holidays or whatever. You can never be too careful and because of that I promised myself that I would not repeat history on my own family.
I think the biggest thing is commen sense. If you are married…why do you need to even have a close and intimate friendship with someone of the opposite sex? Don’t talk about your marital woes to someone of the opposite sex. Because of the divorce rate among Christians alone…we can’t really afford NOT to be legalistic about it. Did you know that Billy Graham never traveled alone or spoke alone with female because he cared that much about his witness and his own family?? Why don’t we as Christians have that same mentality?
With single women…it can be a little easier to have a more intimate relationship with single men, but we still need to be able to guard our hearts and live in purity in our discussions and thinking. That is why I think it is so important that single men and women have close friends of the same sex that they can pray with, talk with or whatever. It is fine to have a variety of people in your life. I do have friends of the opposite sex. But my best friend is my husband.
Okay jumping off my soapbox!
can opposite sexes be friends – absolutely and positively – yes.
the problem is – people become more than friends
good point Brad – but Jesus was perfect you know.
Jesus was also human. And tempted.
This is a great topic. I’ve often had this conversation with other friends and there is a HUGE spectrum of beliefs on this, even just among people who identify themselves as Christians. It’s kinda like the question, “Should teenagers be able to date and if so, at what age can they start?”
You’ve got books like, “I Kissed Dating Goodbye”, “Passion and Purity”, “Date-able” and even Jim Burns’ new book “Teaching your children healthy sexuality” that give great advice one relationships towards others of the opposite sex.
I personally feel feel a tendency to agree with what Jill said when she said:
?If you have a close friendship with a man who is not your husband? you are looking for things in him that you should be looking for IN YOUR HUSBAND.?
In the end, boys and girls can and should be friendly, but be friends…I know the boundries are different for each person and it would be too much of a blanket statement to say, “These are the rules.”
Those are my two cents.
Here’s my background…I’ve been married for 24 years. I work with a team that has ALOT of guys on it. We have rules – we never meet alone, we always include a spouse in on a very serious conversation, even on the phone. But I do have very good male friends that I am extremely close to that aren’t close friends to my husband necessarily. I work with them and he doesn’t. I think it’s really all about guarding your heart and your relationship with your spouse. The healthier your heart and the healthier your marriage, the better able you will be to have a healthy relationship with a member of the opposite sex.
Don’t do stupid things and pay attention to signals that all might not be well and – here’s a biggy – love their spouse enough to honor them as well. I work really hard to be friends with my team member’s wives. We include them in things. They are also good friends. That has helped immensely.
I do believe that it is possible though to be “just friends” with a man. I have many “just friends” that I deeply love and respect.
Two more things:
1) Isn’t the church supposed to be the place where we model godly relationships? This means we are to model how we are supposed to interact, not avoid interaction altogether!
2) Honoring your marriage and spouse must come first. If it makes your spouse uncomfortable they might see something you don’t. My husband must be my best friend and my primary confidante.
Women attach very quickly to men when “heart” issues are involved (listening, sharing concerns). I’m sure I’m seen as rude, but I try and keep all conversations with men short and to the point–and never put myself in a situation where I’m alone with another man. (I’m married, btw.) I am also very careful about giving men praise…knowing how much that builds them up and would connect them to me. If I feel like A Man needs an attaboy, I’ll often send that message through my husband.
I’m married to one of those sensitive-type men that women are drawn to (hey, do I have good taste, or what?! :)) and over our years together (16) (many of those in ministry) we’ve had to beat some women off with a bat. Figuratively speaking, of course. But each time some woman would come and pour her heart out to My Man (whether we wanted her to or not) we’d raise the boundary levels Super High in that relationship.
I fall into the category that with married people — men and women can’t be more than casual, big-group friends. It’s too risky otherwise.
As far as “honoring your marriage?” One thing I think it means is getting your needs met from your spouse (and friends of the same gender). Specifically, I’m thinking of the Five Love Languages here. If one of your main needs is gifts? Don’t accept gifts from members of the opposite sex. Physical affection? Don’t touch members of the other sex. Words of affirmation? Don’t go around soliciting praise from members of the opposite sex.
::devil’s advocate hat::
Your spouse isn’t going to meet all your needs. I have girl friends that meet needs that Chris doesn’t (hello…shopping and chick flicks and silly stuff!!) and I would probably be lying to say I don’t have guy friends that meet other needs. Like my friend Spence (who commented above) has helped me with some accountability with fitness and weight and certain technology things. We connect on those levels that my husband has a different interest in. And I’m confident to say my husband is fine and even encourages my relationship with Spence in those areas.
So is that scenario unhealthy or not honoring to my marriage?
I love this question. I like your devil’s advocate hat comment also. Because, yes, our beloved spouses are not the be-all and end-all of our relational lives and they cannot fulfill all of our needs (some of which are emotional).
Maybe a key to this comes from 1 John where he talks about living in the light. To me that means living the kind of life that everybody COULD see.
In a land of secret electronic communication, this takes effort. My husband and I cc each other on long or significant communication with opposite gendered people. (Messages like “Does Joey have detention today?” “Nope, not on the list.” “Thanks.” don’t really seem like they need it.) Our facebook accounts are open for all to see. (Each other and our parents–both of whom are pastors… awesome.) This makes me think twice even about the way I word things, which is good. Its a boundary for the subconsious.
As a rule, we typically don’t give or receive rides to/from solo persons of the opposite gender. (Groups are better but mixed gender groups are best.) Now, of course that depends on the type of person. If cute Mr. Grampy-gramps doesn’t seem like much of a threat, then we’ll make a decision. Studly McManly is always a no, even if his type turns me off. Typically we hang out in mixed groups and spend solo time with same gendered friends. (Gay friends usually take the “straight plus married” thing as a hint so that’s not too much of a concern).
In general, anything your best friend would tease you about at 12 is an indication of warning. (“You’re wearing THAT to see him?” “What’s with the extra make-up?” “You’re going to his house at MIDNIGHT? Does your MOM know???”) People do see our lives and we are told to avoid even the appearance of evil. Some things are straightforward: A business meeting with the door partially propped probably is what it looks like. Shady meetings in the back alley… those could be called into question. Use common sense. And if the Holy Spirit comes a nudging, listen.
it should be stated that i am a married man…
and until recently i would have came here and said “absolutely we can be friends.” but recently things have happened, nothing awful, but enough to make me wonder if i need to reestablish boundaries? and if i do, how do i do that without hurting both my wife, and the third party?
i agree with tony, that of course we can be friends… but if there is ANY form of attraction, whether it’s to personality or something physical, i think eventually if you don’t go the way of shawn up there, then it’s going to get to the point of where i am today… at a crossroads… and i know it.
thank you anne for posting this it has helped immensely.
not unsupervised or without emotional boundaries; eventually the tide turns to wanting something more–intimacy, sex, whatever
No.
I don’t have a clue why every year over 1,000 teachers are busted for having sex with our children across the country, but it’s not rocket surgery to see how perfectly accepting parents have become to exposing their own children to sexual kissing and attraction in cartoons (like Cinderella) and books.
What’s sad is watching these exact same parents get enraged by books depicted same-sex parents merely holding hands or hugging while decrying them as homosexual propaganda. Nevermind showing your own kid Snow White making out with a complete stranger over and over. But maybe that’s become as OK with parents these days as teachers having sex with our children because it’s the right kind of sex.
a short answer to the first question: YES!
here’s the deal, though. my wife knows the handful of women with whom i have strong friendships; the kind where i feel free (in an “agape” way) to say “i love you” to them. she and i cherish our respective friendships…and, we also are committed to honoring our marriage relationship above those.
so long as joy and i are submitted to Christ, submitted to one another, and DO NOT keep secrets, there is no reason either of us should not have strong friendships with members of the opposite gender.
I’m a single girl and one of my best friends for the past 5 years has been a guy. I honestly feel like he’s my big brother.
I see first hand where things can be tricky and I do think that you have to be aware of certain things and understand that no matter what, people will always talk.
But bottom line…I think it can be done.
I’m so surprised by these answers.
I don’t see why men and women can’t be friends. I have worked in a predominately male occupation for many years, which means that a greater portion of my circle of friend is male. There have never once been any sort of impropriety, physical, emotional or otherwise. Why would there be? They are my /friends/ not potential romantic interests.
How funny. Perhaps it makes a difference if you know and are known to the wife/girlfriend? I’ve always been happy to become friends with the wife/girlfriend too.
I am really torn when it comes to this one–especially as of late.
I am a female and I am in a serious relationship.
I do have 1-2 extremely close guy friends that I imagine will be good buds til kingdom come and hopefully beyond then too.
My boyfriend knows that I would never cross that boundary of friendship and I know it too.
Yet, recently, I was raped by a man that I considered a friend.
Im beginning to really question this–or at the very least making rules to the exception.
Jesus was perfect and God Himself in human ‘flesh’
I would venture a thought that my wife and I discovered early on in our marriage (4year plus now – married at 30 for me, 27 for her).
“I will never be able to meet all her needs and she will never be able to meet all mine, and that is okay.”
That said, I think it is wise to know yourself and your significant other, as well as the person you are trying to relate to. Jesus reminds us time and again that it is about relationships.
If we cut ourselves off from one type of relationship we have cut ourselves out of the wholeness of God’s right relationships. There are unhealthy modes in relationship and we need to recognize those and try to correct, or cut off if we cannot control ourselves in faithful relationship first with God, and then with one another.
good questions.
i think the basic answer is YES but there needs to be boundaries.
i am never alone with another woman besides my wife or my mom. that’s honoring my wife by erasing all doubt of shady goings on. if im never alone with anyone will i have an inappropriate relationship? not physically, but what about the mind and the emotions? much more difficult.
the friendships i have with women are built out of my marriage. they are all my wife’s friends too. church friends. friends from college. it’s never just me and her, it’s me, my wife and her and other people.
if there ever was a time when my wife said “adam i dont like that..” then i’d bail like a sailor on the titanic. my marriage is worth more than ANY friendship, no question about it.
it can be hard, but with some simple boundaries and rules, and some ACCOUNTABILITY with your spouse and friends, then you can have meaningful friendships with members of the opposite sex.
now single people, that’s a different story! in my opinion it’s much more difficult to have a pure friendship when you’re single. especially for men! accountability is the key here as well – talk to your close friends and mentors about it. don’t give yourself opportunity to redirect a friendship. be honest with people about what you’re thinking and feeling.
forgot to add – anne, we don’t know enough about your relatinship with spence to make any type of judgement at all. we see words, we can’t see emotions, from either of you. it’s more an emotional thing than a word thing
but, if anyone here accuses you of an unhealthy relationship with another man besides your husband – woe to him/her, the flowerdust community wrath will be in abundance!
Oh, I have emotions when I’m with Spence. I feel grateful to have him as a friend and challenged to work harder when I am hanging out with him!
Woe to them indeed!!!!!! Fear the FlowerDust wrath! :)
I can only write from the perspective of a single person.
From this perspective… it kind of sucks that my relationships with male friends have suddenly changed as soon as they get hitched!
I understand why, I guess, even though I have never been on the other side of things, and I respect that they can and should set those boundaries. Still, every time another male friend finds ‘the one’, I have to go through a period of mourning that that friendship will never be the same.
Then, when I get past that step, I move on and become friends with their wives. And then things are usually good. I like meeting other people’s wives and husbands, really I do. And seeing a healthy marriage grow is a great thing to celebrate.
But to get to that Step 2, I always have to get through Step 1… and that part ain’t much fun.
Wow, this is a pretty invigorating dialogue.
My mistake was to read comments first, before commenting – because I feel the need to respond to those instead of your question as it was first posed. But I won’t… I’ll go with my gut.
Here’s the deal… I guess in a lot of ways and for some people, it’s possible. A lot of things are possible that I cannot undertake, because I know my own weaknesses, as does my husband. So I’m not going to say a widespread no.
But for us, I will say no. My husband and I don’t have really close friends of the opposite sex. When we start to get to know/work with/happen to be around someone that we get along with like that, we usually make a big effort to get the other spouse in the picture too, because that’s a really valuable way to forge relationships. My husband works at a company where “three’s the rule” if a guy and a girl ever have to go on a sales call together, are grabbing lunch, whatever – there’s always got to be someone else. I really value that.
Our struggles with friendships with people of the opposite sex stems from the fact that we were both people through high school and college who didn’t really date many people but had lots of friends of the opposite sex that we were incredibly emotionally (and sometimes physically) attached to. I crushed hard on some of my closest guy friends, as did my husband (on his girl friends, I mean), so when we met – there was a lot of baggage from that. Because even though we started dating and really enjoyed each other, we were just used to the pattern of growing deeper in friendships with not the best or most platonic of reasons.
I realize my husband can’t meet all of my needs, and vice versa. And I’m struggling in that because some of my closer girl friends… well… we’re just not so close anymore (the whole married vs. single, thing)… but I know that the companionship I cannot find in my husband (which fortunately we share a lot of interests/hobbies)… I can find in the Lord and I am also willing to pursue some of those things as an individual.
My husband is my best friend. And for us, it just works this way. Neither of us feel like we’re missing out on anything and in fact, wish we were closer to and better friends with people of the SAME SEX than anything…
So i guess, it’s not a matter of shutting down potential friendships – it’s just being fulfilled with the friendship I have with my husband and not really being interested in pursuing that elsewhere.
And again, I can’t make the call for anyone else, but I know my weaknesses. And meeting (intrigue), getting to know (attachment), and becoming close to (dependency) another man would not be healthy for me or for my attitude and disposition towards my husband whom I want to give my whole heart, mind, body, and soul to.
sounds pretty darn healthy to me
now, back to the election thingy………………….
i’m single.
my two closest guy friends are gay. it works well for me. :)
(other than those previously mentioned) i’m not looking for any guy friends. i don’t want to be a[nother] guy’s best friend…i’ve been down that road too many times and my little heart just doesn’t handle it well.
i also feel weird talking to married men. and i don’t want to be alone in the same room with them, ever. and if i have something i need from the husband, i’ll call the wife and ask her to ask him. i don’t ever want to get caught up in some shady business or even the perception of such!
Jesus was tempted, but I think we would all agree that he was God and that he was able to fight against a lot of temptations that we all have fallen too…so we probably need to set ourselves up for success…and maybe He did too…this may be controversial and I am not even sure what to do with the statement myself, but besides some biblical-assumptions that Mary was just as close etc., the Bible seems to paint a picture that the small group Jesus really hung with were men. His tight twelve.
Also, if we followed Jesus’ example to the t we would all be single anyway…just sayin’
Shawn Wood
@shawnwood on twitter
http://www.shawnsblogspot.com
This is such a recurring conversation. I thought for the longest time that “We can all just be friends”….but I learned a hard lesson. I tend to get along with guys a lot better than girls. So, when I was dating my husband it was hard to balance how do I be “just a friend” (which means no flirting..think about it we all do it, no going to coffee by yourselves anymore (would you want you spouse going on a coffee date with another man/woman?, etc).
I think when my husband finally said, “Lisa, that’s not how guys work. They want to date you, they just do.” I didn’t believe him! Not for one second….until I had some “good” guy friends, or so I thought, move into the stage in our relationship that wanted a little bit MORE. Everyone of those relationships turned into the guy liking me…..every single time! They didn’t care that I had a boyfriend and this is what I realized….if they really respected my relationship (as a friend) they would have created a healthy distance, but what I didn’t realize was this was also MY JOB! Kinda sucky realization at first!
It makes it hard, but I agree that is is ALMOST (I didn’t rule out exceptions) impossible to be (great friends) with a member of the opposite sex. I have one friend that I’ve known since I was in Kindergarten (since I was 5 people!) and he’s such a nice guy! He is one of those people in your life, that you look back and go wow, you deserve an awesome woman, because he is such a good person. But, the most we talk is about once every 6 months. I would NEVER go out to dinner or even call him and have a long conversation. He doesn’t pursue me…yes, I said pursue because he HONORS our friendship by HONORING my marriage to a man that he has never met. Do we have a long history together? Yes! But, he knows that none of that history supersedes my marriage! This is why he is “the man” when it comes to a friend of the opposite sex.
I truly think it is because we have known one another so long, that he is able to respect me far beyond what other guys normally would, because he knows me and knows that I love my husband more than anything. I tell this little story to say, that most guys are NOT like this (or WOMAN if you are a man reading this).
I believe that you get to this point in a serious relationship to not really “need” the other guys in your life. Do I still have guy friends? Sure! But most of them are friends with my husband too. Can we still learn from others of the opposite sex and have working and functioning relationships with them? YES OF COURSE! I still like talking with lots of people and asking questions about their lives and stuff, but, having coffee times, dinners out and a flirtatious relationship all can lead very easily down the road of temptation.
Satan is good at entering into the GREY areas of life. This is one of those GREY areas I see being a catalyst for disintegration of our marriages. It’s a choice I make being in a marriage, and you know what? It’s not hard, because I am fulfilled in my relationship enough to not NEED other guys in my life.
Anne,
You are always hanging out on the edge. Which is cool cuz I think that Jesus want’s us hanging out on the edge and not in the (lukewarm) middle.
I really don’t think it’s possible. In every situation I’m personally aware of, one usually falls for the other…..even if it doesn’t ultimately lead to misconduct or marital infidelity. The heart being involved can be just as damaging.
My husband and I do not have have close friends of the opposite sex, however we do enjoy hanging out in groups of other married couples. Even this can be very tricky. It has not been tricky for us…..but I know other married couples that have strayed with other couples they were close friends with. And I have known of it to happen on multiple occasions.
can boys and girls just be friends? girls can, boys can’t. research complete. I’ll send you the bill (ha-ha)
I of course think guys and girls can be just friends. I have found, however, from my own experience that it works best and is healthier if both spouses are friends with each other’s friends.
My husband is a high school co-pastor with a girl about his age so this issue has been one we wrestle with a lot. I have personally watched my parents go through an affair where my dad became emotionally involved with a woman he worked with and it all came down to his depression. He was looking for something to fill a void in his life (he was not a Christian at that point). Two years later, I watched the man leading the ministry I was a part of have an affair with his admin. Their families were really close, even went on vacations together. That all came down to the fact that he was burnt out on ministry, tired, and his wife was not handling things well at home either. He ended up wanting to spend more time with his admin: lunches, errands, working alone in the office.
So, can boys and girls be friends? Yes. Should they be exclusive? No. There is a definite need for boundaries. But, I think the most important thing is personal mental/spiritual health and marriage intimacy. My leader and his admin were good friends. I’m confident that neither of them would have ever thought they would ever cheat, they obviously started out just cherishing their friendship but it went further because they weren’t taking care of themselves spiritually and at home.
For my husband and I, it would be IMPOSSIBLE to not have friends of the opposite sex. He can’t put blinders on with his CO-PASTOR, but her and I are probably better friends than they are. We do lunches, I know things about her he doesn’t, and they both meet respectively with mentors for accountability. My husband and I focus more on taking our marriage deeper and growing closer with Christ than we do on making too many rules. I think that’s how we honor our marriage. Making sure our marriage is healthy is even important to our church. He has complete freedom to take time off if we’re struggling through something or just need to catch up. There are just so many factors that play into this, so I’ll just end with that!
“do people shut down potentially thriving relationships because it?s with a member of the opposite sex?”
Ummm…I certainly hope so. But obviously not, considering the divorce rate. If your female friends are boring (and you’re a woman) just get some new female friends!
As a general rule, I think we (my husband and I) have decided that we shouldn’t have friends with whom it would be dangerous to discuss the downsides of our marriage. In other words, I can be friends with his friends (men who are loyal to him), and he can be friends with my friends (women whom are loyal to me), but outside of that. NO. WAY.
But even within these friendships, we are never alone with a member of the opposite sex. Satan likes to make people think they are strong enough, but no one actually is. Realizing that is a very important victory.
“I will never be able to meet all his/her needs and he/she will never be able to meet all mine…”
this is true. that’s why an intimate relationship with God is so important in a marriage, because only He CAN meet all the needs that I have. now i’m sure some naysayer will come along and say that God puts people in your life to meet certain needs…blah blah blah. i made a committmenet to “forsake all others” in favor of my husband, so with God’s help, that’s exactly what I’m committed to do.
hang out in groups, cool! have conversations in public? great! consider them “friend”? sure! but if i ever have to ask myself “is this ok?” that’s enough to end a conversation, call my spouse, and seek wiser cousel from trusted older females.
Um…
The best advice I ever received, and I think it might be a YWAM thing is,
“A relationship is spending time together”
That sounds really REALLY lame I know, but you know what, when your perfectly honest and transparent it becomes a good way to check yourself.
You may not officially call it, or admit it, but we can be in way more “relationships” that we think we are in…
For me, the answer to your question is no. I can come across as rude to women but I know my heart, and how sloppy I can get with it, so I’ve developed some pretty big boundaries. My heart and friendship belong only to my wife and female relatives. I even keep a distance from her friends. I’m polite and cordial, but I would never spend personal time with them away from my bride.
I guess it was an easy decision for my fiance and I. We’ve both been cheated on in previous relationships, and neither of us previously had any close friends of the opposite sex. Our agreement is that if we do make a friend of the opposite sex, we only interact with them in a group setting. This way there is no room for doubt at all. This is what works for us. I think it can be different depending on the couple.
It might help, also, if more of us stopped defining relationships based on who can or will meet our needs.
Maybe it’s actually okay if we don’t get all our “needs” filled.
Maybe the best question is not “what is okay for me to do?” but “what will honor my spouse?” (even if it’s a future spouse).
That’s not to say men and women can’t be friends. (I mean, does following this rule across the board mean single church staff members can’t date?)
But I think it’s a weird angle from which to tackle the question.
My wife is fine with me having female friends, even having lunch with some females. But I don’t do it, and I’m not comfortable doing it, b/c my aim isn’t “is it okay to do this?” but “what can I do to honor my wife?”.
My wife is not able to meet all of my needs either (nor am I able to meet all of hers). But I don’t think “other people” is the right solution for that deficit.
Christ is all we need. Everything else is sacrifice-able.
Just my 2 cents.
Would most guys get married if sex was not part of the deal? My angle is that a married couple should be best of friends. Causual friends for sure. I think close friends between male and female gets messy really fast.
I think Harry in When Harry Met Sally was mostly right.
Can they be? yeah but is it wise? Everyone has to wrestle with that.
We can be “just friends” on Facebook :)
Hmmm, this has got me thinking…(oh oh!)
Can you be, and should you be, friends with your pastor?
If you care for and love someone does that mean you are friends?
I see so many of these “friendlationships” go too far and destroy marriages. To be honest, I think that if you have to ask “how far is too far,” you need to gut-check yourself. It is easy to say that as long as there isn’t sexual infidelity than it’s all okay, but truthfully sharing emotional intimacy and conversational intimacy with a member of the opposite sex who isn’t your spouse is the same as cheating. In fact, most of the couples I’ve talked to will say that an isolated sexual encounter would be easier to work through than a long-going intimate relationship with the opposite sex. To me, the idea is that you marry the person you want to have emotional, relational, and conversational intimacy with, “forsaking all others” as the old vows go. As a man, to find out that my wife was sharing intimate or even commonplace conversations with another man because she either can’t or won’t talk to me would kill inside. It would be a good motivation to reach out and learn how to relate better with each other, but it’s still not okay to share yourself that much with non-spouses.
OH ANNE – you asked for it…I’m pretty passionate about this:
Under no circumstances – NONE – should either mate have a personal, close friend of the opposite sex. Let me explain:
1. Never share your emotions with someone of the opposite sex – your emotions are on reserve for your mate only. Emotions make you close to someone – very close?intimate in fact.
2. Never be alone with someone of the opposite sex – in a car, go to lunch, behind closed doors, etc, etc? Even if nothing happens or ever will happen, the appearance can be painful and can be misinterpreted.
3. Never try to counsel someone alone of the opposite sex on their issues or problems – refer them to another person of their same sex.
4. Mutual friends of the opposite sex are ok – as long as the rules above are followed.
I really don?t care if this sounds harsh. We have many friends and family that have been in bad situations or hurt their mate because they didn?t follow the rules above. It’s not legalistic…my non-christian friends follow this advice too. It’s practial and it’s all about protecting your marriage – the most important thing we can do as a spouse!
can boys and girls just be friends? — yes, with boundaries. A few years ago I got to a point — well, I arrived at this point via therapy — that all my so-called friendships with single guys began w/ attraction and part of me, even if it was just a teeny, tiny part, wanted more. I was investing emotionally (and baking cookies — gah!) and getting nothing in return, because they didn’t feel the same. It partly turned out to be a father issue.
and to what extent? — Attraction is part of of how friendships form in the first place but it shouldn’t be the only thing that pushes you to pursue friendship, I think. I mean, if people constantly refer to you and you “friend” as one unit (“here come jack and jill”) because you’re always together, it’s more than friendship. and not to pick on the guys but if you’re half of one of those kinds of relationships, you need to either pursue a relationship with her or break it off.
how do you keep it healthy? — by knowing your boundaries, sticking to them and being honest about your weaknesses.
without being legalistic? — see above.
::devil’s advocate hat:::
Judi,
Where do those descriptions, insights and guidelines come from Biblically? How and where are they established through Scripture?
I’m trying to dig deep here.
For me (single guy) time alone with the opposite sex should be handled carefully. Its easy to let generall friendliness and flirtation produce intimacy, which is totally fine but in some situations (such as ministry) that should be avoided.
If a girl is attractive, its really hard for me to be friends with her without flirting a bit.
are all emotional or intellectual connections between members of the opposite sex potential hazards to their respective marriages?
Yes, but a person should know their struggles and align their life accordingly. Many people are fine with having close friendships with the opposite sex after marriage, but the strength of their marriage and the strength of their sanctification should be constantly assessed in light of any “grey area” activity.
how much investment or relationship can or should married members of the opposite sex have with each other?
Most of my married guy friends have whittled down their female relationships to strictly work and ministry, and any long term friends. New female friends are usually avoided unless there is some reason for the relationship. To me that makes sense. Theres really no reason to pursue a relationship with a girl after marriage beyond work/ministry/long-term friendship. At least thats my opinion.
“thouh shall not commit adultery”
that’s the only one I know. if you’re not being an adulterer i see no problem
oh, sorry – you didn’t ask me – but i wanted to impresss everyone with my deep Biblical knowledge.
tony,
Why are you excluded from participating?
Your point about adultery is certainly true of “avoiding sin” but perhaps many churches would go a step further and “avoid the temptation to sin.”
But of course lust in unavoidable, so all attempts are futile! :-)
No they can’t, there is a reason you like someone even if it is as a friend, it is still an attraction and eventually may lead to other things, I use to think it was possible.
Maybe that’s why were to cleave to our spouse forsaking all others. I had to leave some relationships behind when I got married because I knew that just being friends wasn;t really a truth that could last very long.
Anyone can be friends. Sure.
Just make sure you never say, “Oh, I’d never do that to my spouse or never do that with so and so.”
Trust me, there are a lot of folks who stepped over their boundaries even though they would have “never” done that.
Russ has great insight. Set boundaries. And be on your guard. We can’t forget that the enemy of our souls is out to kill us, steal from us and destroy us.
And there you go, Mrs. Jackson. Miss you.
(Hugs to you lovely Cindy!)
anne, glad you are pressing-in here…
i read some of these comments and wonder if some standards/guidelines are developed from brokenness, rather than from an appeal to God’s creation intent for us and how community should look.
i am reminded about how religious leaders – who were missing much of what God meant – would “build fences” around the Law.
do we do that in these relational situations – even unintentionally?
Personally I prefer standards/guidelines that are constructed with sin nature in mind. Sure, Christ freed me from sin; however, everyday I have to remind myself of this.
Two questions from our experience: How do women progress in their work/careers if they can’t build friendships with men? In a society where more men are involved with raising their kids and/or primary care givers, what happens if friendship is not extended to them – especially what happens to the kid’s social opportunities?
Hi Anne -…Sure! Our boundries are interpretations of the scripture below.
1. Genesis 2:24 Leave & Cleave…forsaking all others.
2. 1 Thessalonians 5:22 – Abstain from all appearances of evil.
3. Many scriptures – in every instance of giving counsel to a friend in the bible, it is always men with men and women with women. Naomi & Ruth // Mary & Martha // Moses & Aaron // David & Jonathan…this should tell us something. In every instance where a man encounters a married woman or vice versa – TROUBLE! Joseph & Potiphar’s wife (appearance of evil even though NOTHING happened)
4. Common sense…of course you can have mutual friends.
Even if you think the bible doesn’t specificly spell out a solution about how to protect your marriage in this particular area, common sense and respect for your mate could invoke these boundries. To cross these boundries is a hotbed for jealousy, misinterpretation and pain.
imho there is always going to be “sexual tension” between two of the opposite sex who are close in age. That doesn’t mean they can’t be just friends it just means you have to be careful. Setting appropriate boundaries is important.
I say, yes, boys and girls most definitely can.
For me, it was always relatively easy to have female friends, even as a single guy, because I had sisters with whom I was close. So, it was easy for me to treat a girl like my sister. If I ever felt like a girl was developing other feelings for me (ones that I did not reciprocate), I made sure that they understood my intentions. I had a few conversations over the years, simply to tell a girl that “I’m not interested in you that way”. If they were ok still being my friend, that was great. Most often, this was the case.
As a married guy, I don’t see it too differently, though I always let my wife know when I might be in a setting “alone” (though likely in public) with a female friend. We have discussed this, and we are very open to each other about friends that we have – even work friends. Plus, we are comfortable enough with each other to say if we felt any sort of jealousy.
Practically speaking, I think it is very possible to be friends with the opposite sex, but it requires honesty and openness. Sadly, that is lacking at times in our current times.
I’m gonna say with the “group” thing, yes. Otherwise, I recommend EXTREME caution. For a couple of reasons:
1) When I was in HS, I had a couple of different guy friends, who seriously were like brothers to me. We had fun together, hung out etc. However, I found out a few years later that BOTH of those friends actually had “feelings” for me, beyond friendship. Now, I wasn’t married at the time (obviously, I was in HS :-)), but now I can see how you might thing you’re just “friends” but deep down they aren’t on the same wavelength… and things could get real tricky real fast.
2) Pastors (and others in ministry) are falling in droves to immorality (cheating) because of letting down their guard. We (my hubby and I ) are VERY cautions on being alone with someone of the opposite sex. Again, for a couple of reasons.
-Staying away from the appearance of evil. Someone who sees us with someone of the opposite sex could assume anything.
-We could get slammed by the person of the opposite sex (if they were to get angry about something in the church or who knows what… and falsely accuse).
– We’re human, we have feelings and emotions… and growing feelings and emotions in gardens that aren’t ours ain’t a good idea…
In a world where Satan only needs a tiny foothold, I strongly encourage my brothers and sisters in Christ to err on the side of caution.
i used to think that setting up those boundaries would make everything “safe” but when counseling with a man and later his wife on issues that might split their marriage, i suddenly found it hard to not look at her as an object of my desire … the impact of that, suddenly finding how scary it is to be tempted, and for one quick moment start entertaining thoughts along the line of “what if …”
it’s so complicated and hard to stay “faithful” in all that that means ….
I think the key to your question is the second half: “and to what extent?” Jesus seemed to have a friendship with Mary and Martha, and one could even argue friendships with other women (the Samaritan woman in John 4, the women supporting Jesus in Luke 8, etc.). But to what extent? How much time did He spend with them? How much did He share with them? And while I assume that everything Jesus does is prescriptive, how does that relate to married people since Jesus wasn’t married? Maybe it’s one of those things where we have freedom in Christ, as described in 1 Cor. 8 or Romans 14, where we have to use discernment and wisdom and tact.
All that to say, I’m married, and I have female friends, but I’m careful to remain closer to my wife emotionally (and physically) than those friends.
I am unmarried still, but I think I’ve found that guy/girl friendships are pretty complicated and probably not a great idea. Though, I’ve had some guy friends that have really enriched my life and I’m glad for them. I was at an engagement party for one of those friends (someone I bought to church and is now a Christian, straight and getting married to a girl from church) and thinking how I sort of feel like I’ve lost a friend. I don’t think they’re worth putting a lot of energy into as when you’re married you just won’t be able to spend so much time together, but your girlfriends might be aroudn for life.
I think some people are way too legalistic though, I know one couple who have a rule not to be alone with a member of the opposite sex at all. I found that a bit difficult to swallow as working in the corporate world sometimes you have business meetings with men and I would hate to miss out on that just because I’m a woman! So I do think there needs to be common sense applied. I’m not an American, but my churches have the same male/female type rules as most Penticostal churches there. It’s pretty good in the most but sometimes I think it enforces the boys club that sort of already exists.
I have guy friends whose friendship I value immensely. They feel like brothers, not a romantic feeling in sight.
When they get married, I’m always curious what happens with our friendship.
I definitely want them respecting their marriage so I understand that things change, that’s unavoidable, but my friendship with them (and their wives) is still intact.
Don’t get me started about married couples only hanging out and having friendships with other married couples. Drives me insane.
Emphatic NO!
As a single person, sure. As a married person, no way no way no way. Not in person, not online.
But I’m a jealous wife. And God is a jealous God. I don’t want my man chit-chatting with any other women outside of work when he should be chit-chatting with me or our children. Just like God doesn’t want us worshiping other gods.
Not that I’m like God. But I am jealous and when I read that verse in the Bible I understood what He meant.
If my husband suddenly had a female friend he would have a lot of explaining to do. She would be given the boot. If there was any argument from him on the subject he would be treading on dangerous ground. I will not tolerate it. I have seen way too many marriages end because of this very thing. No way, Anne. No way.
I tend to stay away from friendships w/ women other than my wife. Doesn’t mean I don’t talk to other women, or that I’m not friendly and polite with other women… but I don’t seek out friendships with them.
No closed-door mtgs, no riding alone in cars, no one-on-one lunches… those are just my rules. I prefer to set the fence back at least a few yards from the edge of the cliff.
I am married. I connect more easily with men than women. I have learned over the years that men and women can’t just be friends, one of them ends up wanting more and then the friendship is ruined.
I mentor a couple of college students. One of them asked me a question like this related to male friends and boundaries (she is single). I answered like this, “God, tells us to guard our heart above all else because it is the well spring of life. There are lots of ways to be intimate with people. Sex is one of them, but it is not the only one. Deep, intimate conversations are bonding. In my work (I work with HIV prevention) we talk about the idea of bonding. We use the example of a piece of tape. Put the tape on your arm then pull it off, it will pull some hair or skin cells with it. Put it on another arm, more hair and skin cells. The more you do this the less sticky the tape becomes. We have to be careful who we bond to, sexually and emotionally, because it effects the relationships we should be bonding too – our spouse.”
I posed this question to my husband, his answer: “only if they are brother and sisters.”
I have not read any comments yet, i have to finish cleaning the house before the wife returns home :) but…
my pastor and close friend always reminded me that a relationship (friend/dating/marriage) is ALWAYS moving in some direction.
And through all my experience this is true. No matter what I thought about someone the more time you spend together or talk the relationship begins to move. And its your choice on where it is moving.
@ Mike Paschal –
I think that is a great way of putting this. I will have to remember that…
My wife is my best friend. If I men and women couldn’t be friends then we would have never ended up together in the first place.
All my genuine friendships with ladies are open and involve her. I have a few friends from school that email and facebook and my wife has free reign to login in with my id and password and check out anything.
To answer the question, yes. Guys and gals can be friends but I would caution that married couples respect the wishes of their spouses with regards to who they’re friends with. If my wife wants me not to email an old friend, I won’t. because I love her.
I would also say don’t be stupid and put yourself in stupid situations. Any of us are capable to sin and we all need to watch our hearts.
Sidenote – I saw 1 Thessalonians 5:22 (appearance of evil) pulled out earlier. I’ve seen that used to blast people all the time as a “gotcha” verse. Sadly, it’s often taken out of context and if applied to Jesus (i.e. woman at the well) it means he would have sinned. I don’t know about you, but I’m not comfortable with saying that. Just saying we should be careful and make sure we apply it correctly.
Thanks for the great discussion.
well said, jason, re: 1 Thess. 5:22.
we do not have the option to latch-on to passages – written in a specific time, in a specific place, and with a specific authorial intent – and loosely apply them. yes, there often are foundational truths with broad application. the problem is that we often make the specific part become the universal truth.
caution is wise up until the point where it unnecessarily becomes oppressive.
What does the Bible say about this issue?
It doesn’t.
“Single women” didn’t exist much in Bible times. (At least not in Israel.) You either belonged to your father’s house or your spouse’s.
Women and men worshiped in separate parts of the Synagogue.
Women were also typically considered property. (Fun times.)
So the Bible says things like, “keep the marriage bed pure” but it doesn’t deliniate what that means precisely if you are a 21st century female who works with males and was taught to have a “male intellect” (i.e. considered the intellectual equal of men).
I am way more outgoing then my husband so I tend to have random conversations and random friendships/acquaintances with a lot more people – some, the opposite sex. But we are both totally guarded. I always tell my groom who I am talking to or if we are emailing/blogging (because we live overseas a lot of communication happens via internet) I CC him in on it. I keep it to a minimum but if I am talking to a church or a team leader who is a man and we are preparing for them to come over or whatever, my husband is always in the loop to keep accountability in place and to protect our marriage. Daniel (my husband) and I have been accused of being ridged and legalistic, but we have seen our friends marriages end in divorce and/or struggle with adultery…. it was devastating! That isn’t a good option for us so we are super careful. So no. I don’t think married people can just be friends without any strings or rules or lines in the sand.
I am married but most my friends are guys…both single and married. I have never been unfaithful to my spouse. All of my life I have had predominately guy friends and there’s always gossip but in all reality once you cross that line you are endangering a good friendship. My husband also knows who my male friends are.
This is not really a question that can have a broad answer it’s case by case because we’re all wired differently. I love having guy friends…but if you are a co-dependant kinda girl you probably should not….if you’re a sex addicted guy or girl you probably should not…so it starts with having a healthy mind :)
Shawn Wood – I have a lot of respect for what you wrote and think all
husbands should follow exactly to every jot and tittle of what you said. Wow! Your wife is so trustworthy to tell you about that one female. Women know women!!!! My husband of 41 years who is also a Pastor and has his degree in Guidance and Counseling but WILL NOT counsel a woman without me being there. And he makes a loving statement about once or more a month – “Carol is the only woman I will ever love, and I will always be faithful to her ’til death do us part.” Believe you me, there is utmost respect and pure, undefiled love and devotion between us.
Our kids have seen a lifetime of pure faithfulness with their Mom and Dad and that’s worth the entire honoring each other in marriage. Stay focused on love, honor, respect, trust and keep those communication lines open with each other and don’t let yourself think that you cannot keep a marriage happy. You can!!!! It’s all worth it! In a true sense of the word….he’s out working up a storm providing for me and I wouldn’t even think of messing that up. So devoted, loving and I cherish him so wonderfully ’til death do us part. .
After everything I said, I also believe some people tend to shy away from any relationship with any person of the opposite sex because they aren’t comfortable in their marriage relationship by feeling free to express themselves with people of the opposite sex strictly because they haven’t figured out how to model good boundaries without it being awkward.
SO many men I meet that are part of the “church world” feel like they can’t honor their wives unless they completely ignore me. This is where I think the church misses the point. I need to be secure enough in my relationship with my husband/wife to be able to converse and interact in society. Your husband/wife isn’t always going to be with you 100% of the time, and in those times we need to start acting like we are not just a married person, but also an individual, pleasing to God.
Just because you get married doesn’t mean you are supposed to function solely with your spouse, it means, that team, even when they are apart, trusts one another enough to create healthy boundaries that don’t interfere with being cordial and friendly.
It’s the beyond those boundaries where the area gets gray. I know a lot of guys that I can say “Hey, whats up? Hows life” and it doesn’t NOT honor my marriage. It actually makes me realize how privileged I am to have such a wonderful man, but that I can also be a HUMAN BEING and go forward with life. I think sometimes people think the covenant of marriage is like a shield against all other people, when really we are to have discernment about our situations with people and act accordingly (individually and together).
I think that if you are in a healthy marriage u will have communication and trust.
If you are spending time with opposite sex friends and it is not condoned by your spouse then that is wrong.If they ask you to keep your distance then I think submitting to them is the best thing for the marriage.
If you are having feelings (emotional, physical, or thoughts) for someone of the opposite sex that are not “honoring your marriage” that needs to be dealt with and boundaries need to be set.
I guess it is about boundaries, healthy boundaries. Agreed upon.
Personally, I am going through a divorce right now. I wonder if there was anything that I could have done to save it, before it got this far. He started talking to another woman on the phone for hours at a time when we were apart towards the end. It killed me…it still does. And I know they are just friends…but that emotional fullfillment he was getting from her….he wasn’t looking for in me. I don’t think that the reason for our divorce is his “friendship infidelity”, but it started with his looking out side the marriage for what he needed to look for in it. It was just him falling into temptation long ago…and not following God. One wrong turn leads to many….
So I think it starts with God, then with marriage. Every marriage is different. We all have different personalities and trust issues. We need to respect that, but God needs to be the center of all of our relationships…even if we are friends with non-believers we need God to be the filter….that’s it….. we all need a good GOD filter!
So….I guess I would say YES, you can have friends of the opposite sex if you are married…and if your single. but I think that one scripture fits this question…1 Thes 5:22 “abstain from every appearance of evil”. It may not feel good or it may not be our desire to do it….but we need to do what the Word says….
Lisa, I can appreciate your comment tremendously.
I see this more as a function of my communication with my wife. If she’s not involved with a relationship I have with a woman, I work on making them friends too. I don’t have friends who won’t honor my marriage.
One thing to realize is that male friends can get males in just as much trouble as a female friend. It’s less a function of what you can do *with* them, but more of a function of what ideas and feelings they expose you to. Just because you won’t engage in sex with your guy friends (ugh) doesn’t mean they won’t lead you to situations where you’re being unfaithful.
I don’t keep secrets from my wife.
If she’s ever uncomfortable with someone of the opposite sex, I drop that person as an acquaintance. End of story. This has only happened a couple times in 13 years.
But here’s the kicker, if you pray with your spouse…if you have spiritual discussions…if you keep your lives integrated with each other…if you truly grasp the role God has for you and have the healthy fear of God we’re supposed to…then no opposite sex friend will ever even come close to being an issue. You’ll be way, way to integrated with communication with your spouse.
There has been a couple requests for “biblical solutions” to this question, so I thought I’d add come things that have shaped how I approach friendships with those of the opposite sex.
1. I am to honor my wife. People have already said this, but I go with the rule, if she’s not comfortable, I’m not comfortable. I trust her intuition and her feelings. There’s a difference between riding in a car alone with my mother-in-law, and one of the ladies from church. In short, any type of relationships that I may have with someone of the opposite sex is always openly known to my wife and is hers to approve. BTW, my wife is great and isn’t an overbearing, over jealous freak out. This model probably would mean solitary confinement for some men.
2. I am treat treat younger women like sisters and older women as mothers. This “paradigm” is something I actively put on in my mind…of course this might not help certain people from certain mountainous regions of America (it’s a joke)
As a father, I am even more keenly aware of how my ability to properly or improperly communicate the moral way to handle relationship (same sex or not) is. So as I engage in any type of communicative relationship with others, I remind myself that my kids are watching and learning.
well said, Lisa and Mike
Okay, here is my 2 cents (and that is probably what it really is worth!)…Let’s start with some scripture:
1 Thess 5:22 – Avoid every kind of evil
Proverbs 31:11 – Husband should have full confidence in his wife
Matthew 19:5-6 – Husband and wife are now one; let no man separate
1 Cor 7:3-4 – Our bodies are not our own; we need to respect our spouse
and
Eph 5:22-25
I want to focus on Eph 5:25 for a second. Everyone tends to focus on the first part of that – wives submit to your husband. But vs. 25 is the key. “Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her”. How exactly did Christ love the church?
He was a servant. He fed them not only physically, but, more importantly, spiritually. He declared His love for them. He sacrificed His own life to save them. He never turned His back on them. He communicated with them. He provided safety. He is trustworthy. He is patient even when there is dissention. And when there is dissention, he is a peacemaker. He honors God with the way He lives. He spends quality time with them.
How could a wife NOT submit to a husband like that? When she is put first above even himself, the wife feels safe and secure, she trusts him in everything, she has a real relationship with him. If he messes up those feelings of trust and safety, their relationship is going to come unglued. But more on that in a second.
I have really strong feelings about this, and a lot of my friends don’t think the way I do. I think you CAN be friends with the opposite sex, when you are married or single. But when you are single, it is a lot easier. When you are really close friends with the opposite sex, there are emotions, thoughts, secrets, etc. shared with them that are typical for friendships. When you are married, those thoughts, emotions, etc. should be shared with your spouse. A lot of times, cheating on your spouse does not start out as physical. A lot of times it is emotional (someone pays attention to you, someone is talking AND listening to you, etc.). That is SOOOO dangerous. And when you are married you have given your heart to that special someone and you are to be faithful to them. They should be your best friend. There are too many things that can happen when you are really close friends with the opposite sex when you are married. I have made a commitment to my wife that I will never be alone with a lady, whether it be a business meeting, or lunch just as friends. Too many things can go wrong, can be perceived as bad, can be taken out of context.
Maybe it is strictly a trust issue – maybe some women don’t care if their husband is friends with another woman, or a husband doesn’t care if his wife is out on a business meeting alone with another man. But it still does not look good, especially as a Christian. We are supposed to be different from the world, not of the world. And too many times, or nonchalent attitude gets us into far more trouble than we ever imagined. If we would respect our wives/husbands enough to: 1) not get ourselves into stupid situations, 2) communicate as best friends, 3) share our hearts truthfully with each other, 4) have a meaningful relationship with the Lord, and 5) spend quality time with each other on a regular basis, then we would not be like the world, and our divorce rate would be a lot lower. Probably would never go to 0%…but it would not be as high as it is. The problem is we have been desensitized to the world around us, and divorce is not a big deal anymore. Sexual relations outside of marriage are the norm. Broken homes are all over the place. It should not be that way.
Marriage is a three way relationship. Between the husband, the wife, and the Lord. Without one of those being deeply invested in the relationship, the bond starts to chip away. We never have to worry about the Lord being invested. But the husband and wife have to put time and energy into making it work. And letting a member of the opposite sex (whether well intentioned or not) have a place in your life can in some ways take the place of what your wife or husband is supposed to be in your life.
That is just me. I know that lots of people don’t care about this as strongly. But marriage and family is very important to me, and I don’t want to mess up anything in my life. I would rather give up a friend of the opposite sex then to have anything happen and ruin my relationship with my best friend.
Single people of the opposite sex can be friends.
Married people of the opposite sex CAN NOT be “friends” or having a thriving relationship unless it’s a friendship which includes both sexes. We are good friends with another family but I would NEVER call the man to just chat or go to lunch with him or even go to his house if she isn’t home.
Don’t fool yourselves. If you have a strong opinion opposite of this and you are in your 20s then write down why and keep it in a safe place. Then when you turn 45 pull that paper out and see if you still believe the same. By the time you are 45 + you will hear & see alot more perfect couples who have screwed up just because something started out as 2 friends having lunch or something similar.
Little kids can be (best) friends but when they get older (puberty age) then it gets very touchy….regardless of the outward appearances. that means MOMS when your daughter walks around with 1/2 her boobs hanging out her shirt her best (boy) friend from the 1st grade is looking then he is going to be walking around with little boneys in his pants. It’s a fact of life. Yes – a freaking fact of life – unless he’s gay or something.
Don’t fool yourself with trying to be friends w/ the opposite sex if you are married. STAY AWAY from the APPEARANCE OF EVIL.
Amen ‘Brewha!’…I am 29, and have believed this since I got married. I had messed around too much as a teenager, and had seen too many relationships fail, both married couples and boyfriend/girlfriend. So by the time I met my wife I had already made a decision to be different…
[if you are easily offended, stop reading now]
I think Billy Crystal said it best in “When Harry Met Sally”…
Harry Burns: You realize of course that we could never be friends.
Sally Albright: Why not?
Harry: What I’m saying is – and this is not a come-on in any way, shape or form – is that men and women can’t be friends because the sex part always gets in the way.
Sally: That’s not true. I have a number of men friends and there is no sex involved.
Harry: No you don’t.
Sally: Yes I do.
Harry: You only think you do.
Sally: You saying I’m having sex with these men without my knowledge?
Harry: No, what I’m saying is they all WANT to have sex with you.
Sally: They do not.
Harry: Do too.
Sally: How do you know?
Harry: Because no man can be friends with a woman that he finds attractive. He always wants to have sex with her.
Sally: So, you’re saying that a man can be friends with a woman he finds unattractive?
Harry: No. You pretty much want to nail them too.
Sally: What if THEY don’t want to have sex with YOU?
Harry: Doesn’t matter because the sex thing is already out there so the friendship is ultimately doomed and that is the end of the story.
Sally: Well, I guess we’re not going to be friends then.
Harry: I guess not.
Sally Albright: That’s too bad. You were the only person I knew in New York.
[if you are a Christian guy, and you’re saying “nope, not me; i’m not like that” – sorry, i simply don’t believe you]
[if you’re a Christian girl, and you’re saying “gee, are men really like that?” – yes, we are}
I’m going to go anonymous on this one, because this happened to me.
I was happily married … my husband became good friends with someone at work. Next thing you know, they are having a sexual relationship and “fell in love.”
She got pregnant, and we divorced. So I’ve learned the hard way that while you’re married, it is NOT safe to be friends with someone of the opposite sex. Mutual friends, acquaintances are fine, but not something where you call each other or spend time alone.
Don’t give the enemy a foothold (eph. 4:27)
tony g…
now THAT’S funny!
tony g: no doubt, that is a funny scene, but…
what are we saying about the incomparable power of the Holy Spirit in a genuinely submitted heart if we declare – across the board – that what Crystal’s character describes is accurate?
while you may not believe me (and i certainly am not claiming that i am immune to sin), i assure you that i have female friends with whom i have no desire to enter into a physical relationship.
blessings…
John – I am saying nothing about the incomparable power of the Holy Spirit in a genuinely submitted heart.
Rather, I am commenting on the general lack of genuinely submitted hearts.
Or, at least, the consistency of said submission.
We are all just one or two bad decisions away. I have no desire to underestimate my shortcomings.
I was actually thinking about that scene from Harry met Sally, but I thought I would go the Biblical route…but man that is funny, and unfortunately, it is true to an extent!
tony g: thanks for follow-up!
John – sure thing.
I have just seen too much pain come from a lack of boundaries on this issue.
this discussion is very passionate. my opinion is that it comes down to the couple. if i am not confident enough in my love for and from my husband than i am going to be weird about him hanging out with other women. but at the start of our relationship i decided that until he tells me that he doesnt love me (which i pray never happens) that he loves me. and i cant question that.
But, also being in full time minstry i have to follow the rules placed on my by my organization. i can not ride alone with, be alone with, eat alone with or spend any alone time with someone of the opposite sex now that i am married. do i have guy friends? yes! i do…but do i go eat with just them? no….another girl, guy or my husband comes with. but becaues of being in ministry and having these rules it has created an awkward part in me for when i am alone with someone of the opposite sex.
i think it is a couple made decision….unless your organization has rules about it….and that is another topic.
Second to tony, I just have to really accept the fact that I’m too irresistable for a lot of women, that they just can’t be friends with me.
It’s a curse.
Come to think of it, it’s not entirely true- Cindy called me a friend in her email (or a brother I think…or a brotherly friend).
I think my husband and I are probably fairly odd in our approach, but here goes.
We’ve been married for 19 years, and my husband is truly the least jealous person I’ve ever known. I used to think this was strange, and I even wanted him to be more possessive of me, but as time has passed, I’ve gotten over that. In return, I’ve become a much more secure person. I think if either of us ever felt threatened, we’d certainly feel comfortable bringing that to the attention of the other spouse, but it just hasn’t happened.
I’m a female engineer, so I’ve always worked with a lot of men, and I’m usually the only woman in any given group. I’ve had lots of close guy friends over the course of our marriage, and my husband has has female friends, and neither of us has had a problem with it. We’re both very social, so we have couple friends, but we also have lots of younger single friends of both genders.
My job requires me to take customers (again, male engineers) to lunch and to put them at ease socially. I’ve offered to let them bring their wives along to lunch if that makes them more comfortable with me (I’m quite comfortable with them).
So my short answer is that yes, I believe that men and women can be friends and only friends, and I have lots of friends to prove it. Don’t get me wrong; I’m careful in my friendships, and I put up boundaries when I feel they are needed (i.e., I rarely if ever go to dinner with one male friend and me alone). But it’s possible to have those friends, and I treasure their friendship.
I’d say, absolutely yes. My wife has had a lot of close male friends and I have a lot of close female friends. It’s been that way for both of us most of our lives. Honesty and communication is a big component, as well as respect — if my wife says, “Hey, I’m uncomfortable with you hanging out with that person,” that should be respected and we need to talk through it and figure out what’s up and how to deal with the situation. The same should go the other way, too.
“Boundaries” are important, definitely. My wife grew up in a family where one parent was trying to head a church, and lack of boundaries can become a huge issue even without sexuality issues.
Perhaps this has already been brought up, but I think it’s easier for guys to have girl friends than for girls to have guy friends. We girls get more easily attached and tend more often to read things into people’s behavior than guys do. I’m married and I have to be very careful with my heart. :)
I have a group of guy friends that I have been friends with for over 20 yrs. One is like my brother, He married an amazing woman who I am very good friends with. Him and my husband go to LSU games together. It’s all very great. We all love each other very much and right now we would not be in the end stages of our adoption from Ethiopia if not for this friend and his wife’s love for Orphans and us because they donated almost half of the total cost.
Yes, guys and girls can be friends. Don’tover think it, don’t put them above your husband but don’t let go of guy friends just because you get married. Thank God my husband never even flinched about my guy friends, he just became friends with them himself.
David, you may of had a good point in all that but brother, it was way to long to read..kinda negates the point i think.
Not being mean, just saying. :-)
wait, sorry for singling you out David, your book was short compared to others. Oh well, that’s what I get for acting like the comment police..I will hush now.
i think boys & girls can be friends. i think if they’re married (to separate people), that the person who has the opposite sex friend should try to include their spouse in that friendship. any time i’m going to lunch/dinner/drinks with a girl other than my wife, if she’s not going, i make sure to call her & let her know what i’m doing, where we’ll be, and how long it should last. my fear isn’t that she doesn’t trust me, but that one of her customers/friends/contacts that knows me as her husband (but not as a friend) would see me out with someone else and tell her about it. i’d much rather that person mention something to my wife and have her respond with, “oh, yeah. he was out with “girl”, someone blah blah blah.”
i think its important for us to have other-sex friends, even close friends. if i can discuss an issue or concern or need an opinion with something having to do with understanding my wife’s point of view (usually having to do with trying to figure out why she got pissed when i _______ or didn’t _______), who better to chat with than someone who at least shares the same qualifying body parts?
honoring marriage…i think this concept can be bastardized and twisted (*cough*promisekeepers*). when i think of honoring marriage, i put my marriage and my wife’s needs in front of my own. i never slag my marriage (even in a joking way) to any person who does not know the two of us intimately. i try to do things that would make my wife proud (not talking about boobies & hineys to the fellas when she’s not around), or to generally act in a way that she’d be comfortable with were she standing next to me.
and now that i’ve been reading some of the comments akin to “your spouse should be your best friend” and “you shouldn’t be looking for something in someone else other than your spouse” i guess i’ll double comment.
i think that’s balderdash.
there’s no way that i can give my wife everything she needs emotionally or spiritually. likewise in the other direction.
for example, i love reading books about management & business – its one of my passions. my wife? her mind’s in bermuda the minute she hears me say, “so i was reading this new gallup book on great mana…”
likewise, she loves talking about animal stuff – training, animal rights, shelters, you name it. i love animals, but i tune out after about 10 minutes.
there is NOTHING wrong with her meeting that need with someone else, regardless of their sex. if i can’t meet the need, if she can’t meet the need, that doesn’t mean that her need or that my need just goes away.
yonas – it’s tough being second, but the Bible says the last shall be first – so in the end you win my friend
By the time I was 20, I saw plenty of perfect couples tank their marriages because of things that started out as two friends or coworkers having lunch or something similar. In every case, though, the problem was not the fact that they cultivated friendship. The problem was that instead of dealing with issues they encountered in their own marriages, they explicitly chose to cultivate something MORE than friendship with a member of the opposite sex.
Yes, one can sidestep that possibility by simply not having friends of the opposite sex. That’s a bit like what AA calls a ‘dry drunk’ — the problem hasn’t gone away and will, without fail, manifest in other areas. I’ve watched it happen more times than I can count and affairs — of the body or the heart — are the terminal point, not the starting point, of marital betrayal.
Sorry Carole…didn’t mean to go so long. Just passionate about it. I agree with what everyone has been saying to an extent. Just to preface what I was saying…It is obviously up to each couple what they can tolerate from the other. Some people are not trustworthy at all, while others could be trusted with a strangers mansion. The key is first having a living, loving relationship with the Lord. Second is having a living, loving relationship with your wife. You have to have good communication with your wife, or else the relationship will break down. It is possible, but a lot of times you need to look at the reasons behind having one in the first place. I agree with ‘(deleted…)’ that there are some things that one spouse can not discuss with the other due to their lack of interest, lack of knowledge, boringness of the topic, etc. However, that should not make her/him any less of a friend. Just because I can not talk to her about management books (which I too enjoy reading), does not mean she is not my best friend. That is why I have my website and blog. I give her the opportunity to discuss something with me, but if she doesn’t, I will write about it, or discuss it on message boards. I don’t need to meet with a girl to discuss it. Mainly because I don’t want to be put in any situation where something could happen. My wife is and will always be my best friend. And the things I don’t talk to her about are not that important in the grand scheme of things. We have good communication on other topics that we enjoy together. And even do quiet times as a couple to better our relationship with each other and the Lord. this gives us one thing truly important that we can discuss. But I understand what you are saying and do agree with you that you can have friends of the same sex. You just need to be careful that Satan doesn’t get a foothold in there somewhere. We are human, and we all fall short of the glory of God…
# 13@Anne Jackson said,
Jesus was also human. And tempted.
___
Yeah – but he wasn’t stupid. Stupid in as I can do this or that & it won’t matter, I’ll be careful.
LeAnn Rimes has a song on her latest CD called Nothing Wrong (duet w/ Marc Broussard). That song is cringe-worthy. It talks about 2 married adults flirting with someone other than their spouses.
Cringe-worthy when I think of my friends who recently separated because one of them decided they were going to “witness about Jesus” to another person. A few months later there is a divorce and 2 little kids’ lives are shattered. Did it start out with adultery in mind? Who knows but that person ignored that small still voice of God & brushed aside the convictions of the Holy Spirit. Don’t kid yourselves – play with fire and you are going to get scorched.
I think that as singles we can have close, intimate friendships with members of the opposite sex, but when marriage is involved, the nature of the friendship has to change. #106 makes some great points about including the spouse in the friendship as a way to overcome some of those hurdles.
I do NOT think that being close friends with a member of the opposite sex necessarily has to involve flirtation or sexual attraction, as long as there are discussions from time to time about the nature of the relationship to be sure both parties are on the same page.
Like hanging out with prostitutes and letting women touch him in ways that (to his culture) implied intimacy way beyond what his friends and fellow Jews were comfortable with.
Naturally, I’m not saying, “Husbands! Strike up friendships with hookers, it’s all cool!” But there’s something troubling when vaguely worded warnings to “stay away from the edge” are bandied about… but no one can articulate what the edge is or even why it is.
A married man cannot have female friends. He cannot spend quality time with any woman not his wife.
I don’t know the answer. But I know that I’ve had a sinking feeling about how my married boss (at a religious institution) feels about me since I started at my job. And I know that lately when he looks at me and talks to me there is more behind it. And I know that when he touches me, red flags fly. And I know that yesterday when we unintentionally ended up in a dark closet together at work, I literally ran out of it.
I don’t know what to do. He is my co-worker; he is my friend. I don’t know how to best protect his marriage and my purity (I’m single) while continuing to work together.
All your theories and philosophies are well and good in a blog comment, but I don’t know what to do Monday morning when I go to work.
@ Anona #115
Trust your intuition/discernment.
I’m a single woman also and can recall various times where I’ve suspected “something.” If you can’t shake the feeling, there is likely a good reason for it. Find a TRUSTED friend that you can bounce your feelings and the events off of. Just talking out loud will help you to discern if you’re being silly or there is something behind it.
Be careful not to make accusations (if solely based on your intuition). Although I don’t know any of the details, and this piece of advice might seem unfair to you, but leaving may become your best option. If something does go down, no matter how innocent you are, it is more likely that you will be shunned and accused (being a woman, being the employee that has less time in the organization, your boss likely being someone with a good reputation, you being a Christian single woman – “oh, she must have been lonely and needy”). The only thing you may be able to do here is to protect YOURSELF and YOUR PURITY. As wonderful as it is that you want to protect his marriage, you can’t (you can only protect his marriage from YOU).
As far as Monday with your boss, hmm… be polite but not friendly. Speak only when you are spoken to. If he initiates personal conversations, don’t engage (give yes/no answers, leave them by getting back to work, etc.). Handle as much as possible by email, if it is a business account, bcc all correspondence to your personal account. Continue to be warm, use your personality, etc. with others, but allow a level of coldness in your interactions with your boss.
Sometimes it is hard to take action (being cool with your boss, possibly leaving the organization) when you are only going on intuition, but sometimes that is why God lets us see things, so we don’t get caught in something worse down the line.
In marriage the “two become one”. If the husband or wife wants a friend of the opposite sex, the friend must be friend to both because they are one.
In any relationship, boundaries should be set and honored. Isn’t one of the fruits of the Spirit “self-control”?
In my mind, after some personal research, everyone is someone’s husband/ wife…even if it’s a *future* husband/wife. For example, I’m single. I don’t know who my future husband is, but he’s supposedly out there waiting for me. I feel like one should act as though they are married in how they respect/treat those of the opposite sex. For me, I try to treat other men as though they are some other girl’s husband and I don’t allow myself to get to close to any guy in order to avoid premature emotional attachement. It’s very easy to get emotionally attached to someone…I know from experience. I don’t let it show…but it happens and I end up trying to fight it off and later asking God’s forgiveness for being so foolish. It’s easier to just say no to close friendships with members of the opposite sex. Keep them only in group settings. I have school friends of both sexes, but I make sure to never go somewhere with a guy alone to avoid any problems that could arise…inward or outward. How will I meet my future husband then??? If he wants to approach me or my dad with the fact that he’s interested in me…I’ll look into it, but at a safe distance. I don’t like getting hurt. This may sound super strict, but I, personally, feel better being safer than sorry. I feel blessed to have a dad (and a brother) who is more than willing to screen any guys that come around wanting to pursue a serious relationship with me.
That’s all IMHO! :-)
Shalom!
I had to chuckly a bit at this one. One of my closest and dearest friends is a guy…but he is gay…(that’s the funny part…and maybe not so funny…)
Someone said early if you struggle with emotional attachments it’s not a good idea. I agree with that 100%!!! I have struggled with emtional attachments most of my adult life. So, I am very careful about which guys I allow myself to be friends with.
But everyone is differnt. If your marriage is strong and you are confident in yourself and husband…I think it can be done. This is an area I personally struggle with. So, for me no…I can’t let myself get to close and when I do it’s with bondries…
Let me also add my astonishment at those who give an unequivocal “no” to your question. I’ll try to keep this short:
I’ve had perhaps one or two good female friends in my entire life. For whatever reason, I’ve never been that drawn to females–I was tomboy when I was young, and as I grew up, (and here I paint with a broad brush) found the dramatic baggage that came along with most girl friendships to be tiring and trivial. Little has changed in that perspective. I like sports, am fashion-retarded, and am a thinker rather than a feeler.
I found a man that loved me despite (and even for!) all of that. But when we got married, it took my husband some time to get used to the fact that I make friends with guys more easily. I’ve never had a problem keeping the line drawn. I don’t keep secrets from my husband–if I feel someone is attracted to me, I’ll cut off the relationship. I also work to include my husband in my relationships with others… but that’s because I, you know, like him a lot. I like sharing my life with him. It’s why we got married.
As Romans 14 instructs, I don’t pass judgment on those whose faith permits them to only eat vegetables, hold special days as sacred, or to only have relationships with the same sex. However, I also expect to not to be judged for my own “lax” views that say I can eat whatever I want, or see every day as the same, or have healthy and meaningful relationships with guys.
Relationships are messy things–not just with those of the opposite sex, either. But to write off all male-female relationships leaves me sad and friendless, and a much emptier person because of it.
Wow…this was really interesting. I thought I was the only one who thought you shouldn’t be close friends with the opposite sex if you are married. I thought it was just because of my past hurts that I felt that way. My husband and I are both in ministry, and I especially think that in our positions it is wise to set very high boundaries. It’s a slippery slope when you start going down the path of getting close to someone of the opposite sex who isn’t your spouse. Even if you think you have it under control, it’s not worth the hurt that you may cause your spouse. This has been a HUGE hot button issue for me…glad to know I’m not completely crazy. haha
Tough issue. I probably fall on a more conservative side. Setting boundaries around opposite sex friendships.
There is a difference between calling a friend of the opposite sex…and then calling and chatting.
There is a difference between hanging out at a party with some people…and then going to meet them for lunch somewhere.
I’m just saying that, because the lines are confusing. I just know from my experience with couples in premarital counseling, and then in marriage counseling it is one of the issues that usually drives a wedge in the relationship. When one partner invests in someone outside the marriage, especially of the opposite sex, there tends to be the setting up a possibility for emotional investment, etc. that should be reserved for the married couple.
Just my two cents…my wife and I have some old opposite sex friends, but they are our friends now. And if we hang out with them in some capacity, we do it together in a group now. That just sort of happened naturally.
Okay…done rambling.
rhett
Some of my best friends are women. My fiance has no problem with it. We have a great level of trust.
Mike
Hi Anne,
I just found out about you and your blog today. I have written a book ( I am currently waiting on a publisher to say yes–if you have an inside track with someone, let me know! ;-).
Below is a my blog.
http://www.danbrennan.typepad.com/
My book began when my pastor began to project his won authority over me after I had been in deep, intimate friendships with two women–for four years. Friendships my wife called “beautiful.”
Love to chat, perpahs later on this evening or tomorrow.
Yes, men and women can be friends – even close, intimate friends – and not suddenly fall into bed together. Does that kind of thing happen for some people? Sure, but it doenst have to.
I have a very close male friend. My husband supports our relationship 100%. We do all the normal things same-sex friends would do – including spending time alone.
Just some thoughts…having walked through this issue at several layers nurturing and sustaining close friendships with the opposite sex in the context of marital trust and blessing.
#7 What Jill said about the perception she has had to face :?If you have a close friendship with a man who is not your husband? you are looking for things in him that you should be looking for IN YOUR HUSBAND.?
Dan: This is a popular perception some hold–deeply. After hearing it plenty of times, though, I began to think its much more complicated than this. I think this perception is located in an evangelical idealism of romantic myth–like our spouse is supposed to be our pefect soul mate and meet all our relational needs and desires.
Emotional attachment is such a loaded phrase in our culture–especially when it involves relationships between sexes. While there are many different layers and varieties of friendships–signifcant friendships include emotional depth and attachment. This too, needs to be sorted out less we end up with such a one dimensional view of sexuality that is loaded with extrabiblical baggage.
Is it possible to have emotional depth in friendship with the opposite sex and still honor your marriage? Sure it is. It is easy to be emotionally attached in friendship. Can happen real fast online. The issue though is not emotional attachment–but how the Lordship of Christ shapes and forms (sexual and spiritual formation) that attachment in the context of one’s micro-social community (spouse, etc.).
Some good thoughts and fears in this thread. We can’t be naive about these things and some fears are legitimate. But that doesn’t entail that deep, authentic love in opposite sex friendship is always dangerous or inappropriate. Indeed, it could be a sign or a pointer to the greater reality (sexual shalom) in the New Creation.
As I’ve been reading this post’s comments (way after the fact), I’ve been thinking a lot about the second half of Ephesians 5…
My wife and I have been married for just under two years and together (on and off) for about ten. She is my best friend. As I ponder my stance on hetero-friendships, I can’t help but think of her.
I don’t really have an answer to the original set of questions, Anne. I know that my younger self wanted to believe that he could be friends with girls and leave it at that, but I also know that at the ripe, old age of 27 I have thought and done some things I regret that were born of that belief.
I have a wide array of relationships with both men and women, and I am a guy who finds it easy and enjoyable to relate to the opposite sex. And I find it pretty strange that so much emphasis is placed on the potential bad that can come from opposite-sex friendships when so much bad (sexual and otherwise) often arises out of same-sex friendships. The Christian heart, like any other, can wander in so many ways, and it seems to me that our sins rarely show sexual preference. They just wear one mask with men and another with women. And, to be fair, the same is true of God’s blessings.
That said, I keep coming back to Ephesians: “Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the Church and gave himself up for her.” And, later, “a man shall[…]be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.”
I think the idea of “friendship” can be misunderstood. There is a difference between the female coworkers with whom I share my professional time and the close friends with whom I share my life. And there is a difference between a guy who helps you work out and a guy who helps you work out your problems. The lines are blurry and gray and the distinctions are both hard to make and important to get right, but isn’t that life?
Anyway, thank you for asking hard questions. And thank you to everyone who thoughtfully answered. Church is not always an easy place for me, but it’s nice to have a touch of community here.
Obviously I’m late to this conversation but as a single, almost 40-year-old woman my opinion has changed a bit as I’ve aged. And most of my answer speaks to relationships between single men and women. I?ve ?guarded my heart? read: refused to acknowledge men who didn?t want marriage, and I?ve been good friends with men (some single, some married), which led to one of us wanting more. So the answer for me is no, yes and maybe with limits?.
With married men it?s ?maybe with limits? or ?no? depending on the situation. Personal experience has taught me that early on I must establish firm boundaries with wives and their husbands, but more so with the men (not being alone, no physical affection, not affirming him too much, being careful how much I share, etc.) This is not only to protect me from emotional attachments but to protect my friends? marriage.
With single men it?s ?yes? and ?maybe with limits? depending on the situation. As a single woman I WANT men in my life who can engage me, go to dinner with me and just spend time with me (married men can?t.) That has its dangers and currently I am emotionally attached to a man who only wants friendship from me, and that does hurt and feel unbearable at times. But honestly at this point in my life and with no marriage prospects, I’d rather have his companionship than not. My life is richer because of him and believe it or not I’ve learned more about how to truly love by loving him and getting nothing in return. It’s hard to be selfless but it draws me closer to Christ, which is the ultimate goal.
I understand the ?guarding your heart? argument for singles, but I?ve done that to the extreme and for me a life without male friendship, just because I don?t want to get hurt or emotionally attached is far worse. It’s all about finding balance, which probably wasn?t possible for me when I was 25 or 30 but is easier now. Even though my friend and I are not married we?re still honest and open. I tell him/steer clear when I?m feeling especially vulnerable. And he does a good job of protecting me by being firm in his boundaries even when I push for more. Every relationship is different and requires different boundaries, I pray for wisdom and discernment to know how to relate to each person who crosses my path. It?s better that way and I live a richer, more engaged life instead of rejecting men because I fear I ?may? get hurt at some point.
There were a LOT of posts here and I didn’t have time to read all of them, but I LOVED reading from the men who are trying so hard to honor their wives and show that those ladies mean more to them than anything else. I respect that very much!
I’ve seen “yes, with boundaries” over and over and over here. I think it’s because there is an acquiescence–even if subconsciously–that as humans, we HAVE to set firmer boundaries. And we always have to check our own motives. I suspect, too, that part of why we as Christians sometimes end up in deep trouble is that we refuse to admit to ourselves that we have sexual desires. We fool ourselves into thinking that nothing’s going on until it’s too late. We have to be honest with ourselves about the temptations we face.
I see no reason for a deep friendship between a man and woman, if either of them is married, that does not involve the spouse or spouses. If you as a married woman have a deep need to hold onto a friendship that your husband is excluded from, you need to ask yourself what is really going on here. (Or if your husband simply does not like this man, he may not like you being good friends with him, and there may be a good reason.)
Probably the heart of the matter is that we need to seek to understand more of what is meant by the husband and wife being one flesh. If I love my (theoretical) husband as my own flesh, how should that play out in my relationships with other men? In phone conversations? In work lunches? Right actions spring from a right focus.
Thank you for your opinions on the subject.
My question is would we wait till marriage to follow some of the rules noted above?
Ok! What is a freind? I am in a relationship right now, and my girlfreind says that most of her freinds are guys. Since I came around only 5% call on her to see how she’s been doing, and that number is dropping off drastically. I told her that the rest were really not her freinds that they were just FREINDLY. Guys are all about oppourtunity when it comes to women. That means most guys play a part of a peacock, etc. Let me tell you something about men, because I am one. Most men are driven by a 2cm part of the brain that is designed to make them want sex, and repopulate the world. Its all science, and its been around since the caveman era. Sure they like having conversations with beautiful women. What guy would’nt? The only reason they acknowledge her is, because she acknowledged them….period! My take on it is NO…you cannot be freinds with all of the ones you think you are freinds with. I told my girlfreind that the only reason she was freindly with all of those guys was that it put her in control. Made her self esteem higher, because of the socialization.
Why do you think that the porn industry makes so much money? Why do you think churches make so much money? Why do you think therapy costs so much?
The reason….One thing that I have learned over the course of my life is that mine and everyone elses heart in the world are forever inexperienced with love.
Speaking as an honest Christian man (age 26):
Maybe this gets easier when you’re older, but for me having close female friends that I’m physically attracted to is really difficult. I think the fact is guys tend to treat girls a little differently if they are attracted to them, and this chemistry is pretty hard to shake off…ie the desire to flirt or escalate the emotional connection in some way. Other girls usually pick up on this and can also feel a little “under-valued” if you are unable to hide your attraction to the other girl…and I don’t care how hard you try to hide it they seem to be pretty darn perceptive.
Perhaps as I age my testosterone will cool down and make this a little more bearable, but from personal experience if lust is even remotely a problem…aka you’re a male…then you should be really careful if you want to ensure that the friendship is solid, and that you don’t create drama in your church community.