“the reason a lot of people choose to work on a church staff is because they’re too lazy or too afraid to get a job in the real world.”
wow. that was pretty harsh. i didn’t mean for it to come out so bluntly.
so at the lunch table with some friends, i backpedaled just a little bit and added,
“of course, that’s a very broad statement…not everyone who works in a church is afraid or lazy…i’m just saying there are a lot of people who take jobs in churches because a church can be a really easy place to work.”
emphasis on can be.there are a lot of people floating along in life by working at a church.
sure you may get paid a little less or not get as many benefits, but it’s so easy…why would you stop?
you want to know why some people get burned out in ministry? it’s not because they’re working too hard. it’s because they’ve set their level of expectations (both spiritual and pragmatic) so low that when something actually happens that causes them to rely on god’s strength rather than their own strength, it freaks them out. and then there’s no accountability in place, so even more chaos ensues.
let’s face it: there are so many things you can get away with working on a church staff that would never happen in the real world, and many of us take advantage of it. i know i have before. and if we ever expect anyone outside of this little bubble we’ve created to take us seriously, we’ve got to stop.
like it or not, pretty much everyone else can see straight through it. how do i know? because i have had more than one person outside the bubble tell me this in recent days. and our behavior is setting a terrible example of so many things: stewardship of time, money, relationships, to name a few.
the fact that there is even a bubble to speak of says there’s something seriously wrong.
when i interviewed bill hybels for his contribution in mad church disease, i asked:
what are some of the diseases you see plaguing the church today?
he said,
I see twin towers of concern. One is burnout; the other is complacency. There are a lot of Christ-followers who haven?t taken the time to figure out what their holy discontent is, and so they?re doing a gradual slide into apathy and complacency?and that is unconscionable in a broken and lost world. I?m as concerned about Christ-followers? apathy as I am about other believers who are borderline exhausted. I would hope we could find the kind of energy that comes only from the Holy Spirit so that we can sustain productive, Christ-honoring ministry over the long haul.
bill’s a smart guy.
so, if you’re currently on a church staff i want you to take a good hard look inside and ask yourself why you’re there. is it because you’ve been called and are fulfilling god’s dream for you? because you see the brokenness in the world and you absolutely MUST do something about it, and the local church is the place you’re supposed to be?
or is it because you know you can’t get away with half the stuff you do if you were to get a “non church” job? because you don’t know how to relate to people outside the bubble? because you’re afraid that you might actually have to be stretched and grow outside of a safe, christian comfort zone?
====
note: i really battled posting this for fear that it was too negative. ministry is hard work and there are a lot of great people out there kicking tail. at the end of the day (and after reassurance from a couple of people who got a sneak peek) i decided to go ahead and let it roll. so know that i’m working on how to communicate the things in my head a little more redemptively. in the mean time, thanks for hanging in there with me as i learn.
Comments
106 responses to “there are a lot of lazy church staff people”
Having been on staff at a mega-church and at a 4 yr. old church plant…and having been one of the HARD WORKERS…I will say that I TOTALLY AGREE.
This needed to be said. I have seen this behavior in the ranks of the church I pastored along with my husband. We had to fire a personal friend who was on our staff for mishandling church money, poor time management, and insubordination. A church staff can be a great place for laziness to thrive, but ONLY if the leaders allow it.
Well said.
Anne,
I don’t think you were too blunt. I think that there are things that need to be said, and there is no way to have impact if we don’t just say it. I wish I had the guts to do that sometimes. I think your comments are right on target. I have served with both types. Thanks for caring enough to be honest and blunt.
I have to say that this affected me. I am on church staff right now and most of the time I do feel called to be in a church. I love the church and the way it operates – most of the time. But on the other hand, I know that I do take advantage of the fact that I don’t work in the real world. I am a bit lazy in this respect. Actually I have applied at two different jobs that aren’t in a church just to see what God might do. I am scared to death. Maybe the church has become my comfort zone. This article has come at exactly the right time in my life. God is using it to prod and poke me.
Not at all too blunt. I think it needed to be said.
Anne…
Thanks for this post. I have long thought this. It is one of those things that most in the room are thinking but no one has the stones to say.
I agree, I’ve seen and known Joe the lazy church staff guy. Most churches don’t have performance reviews that tell Joe what is expected of him and what he needs to work on. Also, I think Church leaders need to have honest conversations with guys and gals entering the ministry about why they are going into ministry. I talked with a guy several years ago, after getting his degree in ministry, and working on staff at a church say that he never really felt called to ministry. He just thought it would be a fun job to have.
Great post Anne.
I would have loved to see you state what you think are some of the things that we can get away with working in a church setting that we can’t get away with in a secular job.
Also, it would be interesting to write a post about the unrealistic expectations that many church workers experience that would never be acceptable in a non-church environment. (Sort of a balance to this post).
Having said all that, I do think that you have expressed well what some who work in church settings experience. I have seen (and worked with) those lazy people. They certainly are in the minority (in my experience), but they are there.
More often, I see people who will do more than expected, work harder because they are not seeing it as a “job”, and sacrifice more willingly because of their passion for what they do.
thanks for posting this. it is a confirmation for me.
I just picked up a job at starbucks because I had gotten unintentional at meeting new people and developing relationships. I also being in a “real” job has helped my credibility a bit with those to whom I am reaching out……….
keep doing what you’re doing…..
I completely agree. I am on both sides of the fence, working a full time job in industry and part time as youth pastor, speaker and executive team member. It frustrates me to no end seeing full-time church employees with less commitment than myself complain about having to attend a meeting after hours. Unfortunately, churches tend to hire those who don’t want to work on the outside instaed of hiring the right person FROM the outside.
Thanks for the post. It pushed my buttons a little.
well said, Anne. I think we need more people need to understand the reality of what’s at stake when one works in a church. I met more lazy people in seminary who were using youth ministry as “fall back” for other choices not working out as planned. I’m sorry, but I’ll never hire someone at my church who is doing this as “fall back” from not making it in their first option for work.
Working in the local church community takes more balls than lots of other jobs out there. It takes commitment beyond belief that trickles down into every aspect of one’s life. (My spouse has to be as committed as I am.) It takes integrity as we need to smoke what we sell.
I know that I might always work 50 hrs/week. But that is what I’m called to, as long as it doesn’t burn me out and destroy my family. I wish more of the people I work with would see that as well.
Anne,
Thanks for the post.
I’ve been having this same conversation with a good friend who’s in an executive position at a global company. It’s the biggest frustration he and his fellow business leaders have with his church. Many of them have simply chosen to quit lending their time due to the inefficiency of the staff.
As Andy Stanley says, “Your local church should be the best organization to work for in your community.” If it’s not, I don’t think we’re reflecting God’s values very well and as staff we will answer for that one day.
never been on staff at a church but have managed them (hire/fire/promote/salaries/reviews/etc). also have managed fairly large groups of employees in the ‘real’ world – which doesn’t exist by the way. i think laziness is somewhat common in our U.S. society, but not nearly as common as in other parts of the world – or as common as it will be in 2009 :)
with that said – have to agree with Rob. i used to consider church staff that goes to work at 9 instead of 7 pretty darn lazy. but then i wasn’t up until midnight or later listening to some person gritch about the worship music or on the phone trying to explain to a moron mother that yes, babies do produce poop – it’s natural.
not saying anne took a shot – she qualified it pretty well – but most of the staff people i know work very hard for measly amounts of pay and a good bit of grief from those
‘church’ people – no wonder they take a day off for golf or for goodness sake to actually see their kids or spouse
Anne,
You rock.
That is all.
Love,
Joe
I wonder if some of this is because of how we hire……if we hire people because they are convenient and cheap (I was hired this way but I hope that people think I was worth the risk and have more than proved my work ethic), then we will generally not get heavy hitters. Period.
I say this very tentatively because I was a volunteer for years and years before being hired on a church staff. I do not have a degree. I was hired because I was there and was willing to work 60-70 hours a week for virtually gas money. I think I am a valuable member of our team now and have worked myself to the point of illness at times, BUT……if many people are hired this way then maybe it’s hard to find the best, or to really talk about calling and passion, when what we’ve really hired is just “someone willing to do the job for that amount of money.” I also think we hire people to perform tasks and not to actually spiritually lead, which is the essence of ministerial leadership!
I love that my hours are somewhat flexible, but the last few years ministry has been the most profoundly difficult thing I’ve ever done besides parenting. It has just hurt deeply. Sticking with it has been brutal and a test of my faith beyond anything else I’ve ever experienced. I suppose I was in that section of “near burnout”……and some of that near burnout comes because others are so complacent…….
Loved Bill’s comments. Spot on.
Oh Anne. Thank you for writing this. I was just talking to a leader in our church about the discontentment in my heart when our staff takes 2 .5 hour lunch breaks, or all have these huge homes when people in our congregation are without employment or decent homes. Im not judging them, I just dont see the balance, when Im there for a class and they’re sitting in one anothers offices laughing and watchin you tube.
I’ve been that person. In my early 20s I worked in a church office in a department I had no business working in. I was hired to travel and sing on crusades and revivals with my pastor, but they couldnt justify paying me a certain amount of money “just to sing”, so I worked in the office. I was bored and non productive.
If I ever had the chance to work in a church again (which I do believe I am called to do), I now have a better understanding and appreciation for it, and would be sure that i was willing to work that job as if it were a corporate position.
Yeah, I would say this is pretty dead-on. Being in the Creative Department and having about 33% of the amount of workers I actually NEED, I can’t say this applies to me… but I see it all around me. Thanks for being bold.
Anne,
Great post and a great reminder to those of us who are really “called” to tending God’s flock. I would agree that church staff do get stagnet. A healthy church is because it has a healthy staff. Churches will only go as far as it’s leadership. And sadly, not very far at all. Keep keeping our heads-up when it comes to these matters.
Anne,
Interesting post…I’m normally more of a lurker and don’t comment. But when I read this, I was kind of surprised. This does not describe any of the church environments I’ve ever been a part of…or our environment at Granger at all. I’ve never worked with more hard workers, professionals, committed to the mission, ever. Yes, we have flexible schedules that don’t match up to the corporate market place. But that doesn’t mean lazy to me. Ministry doesn’t happen between 8-5. I will say, that I thought when I took the job at the church after 6 years at an advertising agency that it would be a cake walk…but boy was I wrong.
Way to speak your mind, Anne. I like your style.
I used to work on a church staff and I experienced the laziness first hand. It really irritated me and it’s why I think we’re wasting our tithes by giving to churches with a large staff and super sized building and a plethora of programs but little life change in the people.
Very disillusioned with the current state of church b/c of my experience. I really don’t think Paul or Peter (let along JESUS) would approve of the way we’re doing things.
Anne:
While I will agree with you that there are a lot of lazy church staffers out there, I personally would NEVER work on a church staff if I wasn’t called to it. Ministry is the hardest job – ever.
/TC/
dang. preach it. It totally agree with you. i wouldnt say im exempt from that statement…i totally need to look at my own motives too. but thats been a burning conviction of mine for the past week, since im currently just working at a “corporate” coffee shop…Starbucks! But they pursue excellence and go to great lengths to do so..they’re not slackers, yet theyre still considerate to employees, customers, and the environment. Grace does not constitute cutting corners. This seems to be even more true in the “church world” where people pass off grace when sometimes it needs to have a healthy dose of “truth in love” as well. Simply because we are given grace does NOT give us the right to be disrespectful, inconsiderate, lazy, or irresponsible. It should cause us to be even MORE relentless in our pursuit towards Christ-likeness. That goes for our relationship with God AS WELL as others.
Anne,
No need to back off on this one. It applies to not only church, but to so many other “Christian” jobs (radio, publishing, retail, music, etc.). Since becoming a believer in 1988, every job I’ve had has been in one of these “bubble” fields. I struggle with “lazy” still today.
Very well said! Kudos Anne!!!
Well stated. I debate whether I should forward this on to certain people in leadership
I have to say that this is the first post you’ve written that has made my stomach hurt. i am 100%sure there is some truth to what you are saying, however, there are lazy workers wherever you go. The person who cuts my hair, the McDonalds worker that always forgets the honey for the McNuggets, the road worker that watches his friend do all the work…
There are lazy people everywhere.
I am afraid that you are adding to the perception that “church work isn’t real work”. I know you don’t believe that, but many will interpret this post that way.
I have been around the staff of GCC for 16 years and in all our years at this church, I have maybe known very few staff members to be lazy or complacent. The people on the staff of GCC work harder than any people I know. They persue Jesus and an environment of excellence in a way that is admirable.
My stomach still hurts.
that’s all
:)
While we were living in England last year, I worked for a Christian non-profit. I hated it. Living inside the bubble was painful and frustrating. I realized that I love working with people who believe differently than me. I also realized that there were things that our CEO got away with that I’d be able to excuse in a secular work environment; you expect a non-believing CEO to be a bit greedy and uncaring…but working in a Christian organization, the bar is so much higher, and it’s so much harder to excuse bad behavior.
I occasionally think I’d like to work for a church, but you’ve just made me think about my intentions – honestly, I think, part of it is that it seems easier than my corporate job…
Wow. I really get the whole perceived safety of the Christian environment thing. Interacting with those who aren’t Christians on a regular basis is definitely more challenging for the faith. What is crazy about this statement is: What in the WORLD in the Bible suggests that a Christian environment shouldn’t be teaming with unbelievers! Have our churches forgotten the Great Commission? Do we exist to better our own walk and the walks of other Christians? If we’re not interacting with unbelievers, are we really walking the faith or not?
I have had periods of my life where I was in a Christian ‘bubble’, I have done tons of volunteer work inside the church walls. But it continues to blow my mind to think that scads of Christian staffers spend the majority of their time with other Christians. Another sect knocks on doors to fulfill their time outside the bubble. I’m not knocking fellowship with a core support or taking care of the business of the church, but I am knocking the attitude that ‘be in the world but not of the world’ means that we don’t associate with nonbelievers. Snobbery will get us nowhere.
Anne,
I meet a lot of church staff in my church consulting visits. Sadly, I see a lot of laziness, sloppiness and just plain incompetence in churches. I have had to fire some of my clients? staff because they were too afraid to do it themselves. It?s unbelievable what some churches put up with in the name of grace. For me it?s a stewardship issue. God?s resources should not be wasted, especially when people are being paid for jobs they don?t or can?t do.
I’ve worked in church and para-church organizations, as well as in the “real world.” I think it is a mistake to hire anyone who does not believe their job in ministry is less than a calling. If it is just a job, if these are just tasks, then the lives entrusted to us are not influenced as they could be. Complacency creeps in and we rely on our strength rather than God’s to accomplish tasks.
In my current employment in a para-church ministry I have a boss with a saying that applies. He often says, “The quality of our work is the platform of our witness.”
He is a smart man!
Sorry. I didn’t mean to veer off topic. I think a nerve might have been hit there. I think what I was saying was it is crazy to me that it is even possible that so many are able to skate by because they are in a church position. Because ‘Christians-only bubble’ and ‘called to ministry’ shouldn’t be synonymous.
Wow. Open that window and let in the LIGHT!
As far as the ’cause’ of this, I think it’s fairly simple to identify, and hard to correct.
A Church is one of those organizations that is directed (at least one would hope) from the bottom up, and not the top down. That is, the church congregation is supposed to supervise and direct the leadership. In business, the employees work for the boss. But the Christian example is supposed to be one of, “servant leadership.”
And I don’t think that church staffers are lazy so much as the church congregation is shirking their collective responsibility to hold leadership accountable.
But, most church goers are just glad that “someone else” is doing all the church work, so that they don’t have to. And so they turn a blind eye towards their church staff.
I think that most people are inspired to work for a church for the potential of doing real and important work for God, but then find no demanding tasks placed before them.
I’m really glad you posted this.
Kevin
There is biblical support for the church leadership to be answering to the congregation. None. Elder boards, yes.
That should have read “no biblical support ….”
Well, well, well…like they say “Love takes balls.” I really really liked this…alot. And here is why: I have struggled, in fact I have fought hard to not work on staff at a church. But at this point it is undeniable that God has called me to be on staff. Even now this morning I am working in my office by myself and that creates an environment I have never worked under in the corporate world. I am pretty much self-guided, self-managed in my work for the church. Sure there are things that are handed to me with deadlines, but I generally get to choose how and when I go about my work.This leaves a tremendous amount of space for me to slough off and do nothing. And unfortunately sometimes I do. But I think about the three weeks I spent in Niger last year with a pastor who works there. He is so busy. He wakes up at around 5am and goes to bed at 11pm or later if he is lucky. He is self-managed and self-directed (he does have a very small staff). But he is completely MISSION FOCUSED. I’m sure he has hard days but the need is so great around him and so many people depend on him (and we are talking literal life and death: water, maleria, food, etc…) This is why I am so glad you included the words of Bill Hybels. I respect him very much and I believe that he has profoundly and succinctly summarized this issue.
Thanks again for having the “balls” to post this…sorry for the hijack…
Thanks for the unnecessary crassness …
Ok, brothers and sisters. I love you and I’m frustrated with the idea that you’re “Called to work at a church” – so is everyone else called to do nothing in the church? No – we’re all called to work in the church, acting as the body together with our gifts. On our free time, volunteering, working together. Did Paul or Peter (or Jesus) have an administrative assistant? Yet I dare say they were extremely effective and prolific in their ministry.
If we all worked together as a body, using our various gifts as the bible tells us to, we wouldn’t have to have this distinction between people working at a church (and being all special and “called” to get paid from everyone else’s tithe and take 2 hour lunches), and those that just show-up and attend and do nothing to help the church.
I might argue that simply having paid staff lets everyone else off the hook, thus creating the system we have now where a small minority of church attendees (church staff) run the church, and the rest of the group simply attend and do nothing.
The upside of this system is it allows us to create large gatherings with thousands of people and lots of programs and such. The downside is such groups are not vibrant, unified, communities of people that know and care for each other and are invested in each others’ growth – (“such groups” i.e. most churches in the US, hence the crisis we’re having in the Church of our actions not matching our talk).
Very interesting post and comments! As someone that works in the “real world” I can assure you that we have our fair share of laziness out here as well.
Pat Rowland – your comment about you friend that thought working in ministry “would be a fun job to have” is messing me up right now. I interviewed with a church a while back and hope to again. I need to pray that my motives are Gods and not something that I think would be fun.
Wow, Anne. I think that if I didn’t know you at least a little bit — through your book and a face-to-face — this WOULD hurt. However — you’re right. There are people who are paid staff members in some churches who don’t fully understand their responsibilities. I think there is the problem.
When we sign on to work in a church, we MUST be called of God to do it. ESPECIALLY if it’s in any kind of leadership role. Then, comes the rub that WE might understand what God has called us to, but those who approved our hire don’t. They might think that the pastor is supposed to preach on Sunday morning, then visit hospitals and homes for 60 hours a week. The secretary is supposed to be available 24/7. And for Pete’s sake, don’t even think you get to take Sunday off! (Sometimes, I want to slip in late and leave early)
Then, there’s the expectations of those whom we work with (and for). I think that as church staff, many don’t have a clear demarcation of WHAT we’re supposed to be doing and we end up taking so much on our plates that there’s no human being on the planet who could do it!
I think we who work in the church or in ministry do need to take a new and fresh perspective on this. We need to look at the business world. Dave Ramsey’s done it, Andy Stanley’s done it. Granger has done it. It’s not incorporating the worldly — it’s using the tools that work for them and applying them in our world. Nothing wrong with that. Ramsey’s talk at Catalyst still resonates in my head!
Most of all, I think every person who “says” they are called by God will have a compelling testimony of how that calling came to them. It will be a drive in their heart and soul that moves them every moment in that calling. I’m fortunate that I get to work from home mostly, but lazy — I can’t be. There’s too much to be done. Too many people who don’t know Him, too many who need to grow in Him. Too much.
So, Anne. Well said. Thought-provoking. As our staff enjoys a cook-out staff meeting tomorrow, discussing our responsibilities — real and perceived — and get those straightened out — I will bring this post to them. We’ll discuss it. We’ll learn from it. We must.
Thank you.
The biggest cause of failure in churches is THE HABITUAL AVOIDANCE OF CONFLICT. Heard that from Watermark Church Dallas. Rather than deal with the issues, we want to BE NICE to the church employees and so issues compound. Anne, your post affected me more than most sermons!
bold step, friend.
i have minimal insight into this issue outside the staff at my home church – and, they absolutely do not fit this description.
can i offer this? i learned (lo, these many years ago) that our own anecdotal evidence often suggests something different than empirical data would confirm.
so…i do not mean to discount your experiences. simply want to affirm your recognition that we need to be VERY cautious when making these types of statements.
btw, hope your NC time went well!!
Bill?s comment nailed it. Great frame of tension in the midst of apathy, complacency and burn-out. In my opinion, and know that I am often the pot calling the kettle black, I think we naturally gravitate to the path of least resistance. As followers of Christ that should be the polar opposite though. We make excuses for not taking risk. We settle. We?re okay with fitting in and squeaking by when we are called to be so much more. I don?t have it all figured out either but I do know one thing, I never want to become complacent with my faith and how I example that faith to others in everything that I do (from how I work to how I serve to how I treat the cashier at the grocery store). I think we owe it to God to give him a bit more than just a ho-hum effort.
This is such an interesting thought. Since your tweet yesterday I’ve been curious what your post was going to be but I don’t think it’s nearly as controversial as I expected! :)
As church workers, we definitely have to have our A-game on at all times. Which can definitely get exhausting and lead us to want to slack off and go full swing to the opposite. Not offering an excuse at all, just a thought.
I stay at my church because I think I’m really good at what I do and because I love it. It doesn’t really seem easy to me, but maybe that’s my position? What’s easy is the schedule. I’m part-time so the flexibility is huge for me. I don’t think I could go back to a 9-5 now.
I’m sure there are times when I give much less than my best and I definitely need a wake-up call reminder to be better than I am. Not to mention, I don’t encourage my fellow co-workers as much as I should. I think as a staff, we need to be verbally challenged and encouraged to keep our game up and do more than our best. There is too much at stake not to.
Thanks for a great Monday-Sabbath kick in the pants! :)
BAM! This post hit the nail on the head. It wouldn’t hurt church and para-ministries one bit to set goals, be accountable to deadlines, and eliminate dead weight. As leaders it’s our job to cast a vision and model a sense of urgency. The majority of unhappy workers I know in my life are the ones with the least to do and the most time to complain about it. The blessing of ministry work comes not from the ease but from the results of the labor.
Thanks for the bold, transparency.
Anne! Great post. I applaud you for writing about something like this. Definitely something to think about =).
In light of this statement, “As leaders it?s our job to cast a vision and model a sense of urgency” I would like to reiterate that I believe the vision and sense of urgency for the staff of a church should come from the Congregation. This approach would necessitate the congregation being more involved in the work of the church.
I don’t mean to argumentative, but I think it’s an important distinction.
Great post Anne! I have met TOO many pastors who fall into this category. I confess that I have lived in this category at times as well. Being involved in full-time paid ministry should NEVER be an excuse to be lazy!! I know of a pastor who recently left his church (for various reasons) and went to work in the “real world.” He HATES it! He realizes that he had MANY freedoms as a Pastor that he does not have now and he desperately wants to get back into a church so that he can have those freedoms again! I think that is very sad.
Heckuva job Anne!
My wife used to be on a church staff. She was a hard worker and was surrounded by hard workers, in that case it was a great situation. On the otherhand a tough question every church staffer should ask themselves is “If I weren’t doing what I’m doing here and getting payed from peoples tithe… how much would it affect the cause of Christ?” That question, once you put it in your feild of play , continues to get more dificult to answer.
What I see more than anything today is the FACT that in just about every church @20% of the congregation give @%80 of both money and labor. To compensate the leadership builds a staff to pick up the slack (labor) to add “value” which keeps that @20% (givers) in tact. I don’t see how that can be justified. God builds better in our adversity (weakness) but these structures of “over-organized religion” we call churches rely on our strengths, ingenuity, and personality. It’s an abomination.
Anne, thank you so much for this post. I worked a full-time job (40-50 hrs) and volunteered about 10-15 hrs a week at my church. I did this for four yrs. During that time God confirmed a call on my life for full-time church ministry. I was hired by my church.
I can’t tell you how much over the last three yrs that I have had these same conversations over and over in my head…on our staff, we have a wide variety of work ethic and it drives me crazy. I thought it was just me. But I see now this is a problem in alot of churches.
My stance is this, we ask our volunteers (most who work full-time jobs) to give volunteer hours to our church (which they should). How can we in leadership not set the example by working even more then what we ask our volunteers to do?
I know I have a strong work ethic, but it grows tiring when I have to explain to others I work with on staff that I’m not the workaholic you think I am….I just work 40 hrs a week. That has been the hardest transition for me in leaving corporate world for church work. We do have a some people on staff (my lead Pastor for one) who pour their hearts out for our church but as a general rule, not so much. Ultimately, I have to rest on Colossians 3:23-24 (yes, its taped to my monitor as I type this…)
wow, i think this is a brilliant post. no one says this!
i have battled this from time to time but more in a discomfort vs. comfort kind of way. am i staying because i’m too scared of something different or do i truly feel called to be here? no doubt tough times have led me to ask that question more than at other times. but thankfully it is all becoming clearer and clearer. and my passion for what i do now is blossoming. i am thankful.
I think it’s interesting that in about 4 hours there have been 45 comments. Definitely not all, but many of those agreeing with the post. But I always find it interesting when everybody says they see lazy people around but none of them think they are the lazy ones. And we’re the ones that somehow have time to be perusing blogs and commenting on a Monday morning too! lol. Just interesting.
That being said, I can see where you are coming from to a certain degree, but my first inclination is to push back, maybe just cause of my own experience. When I was real young, my first job in ministry, maybe a little guilty. So I can concede a little.
I don’t know if it counts as “real world” or not, but I spend a couple years making a living in theater and entertainment. Over 4 years ago I felt called back to occupational ministry. My experience: I work a lot harder here than I ever did there. I like to think I was fairly good at what I did. I would say it was less work, definitely less hours, and I am now finally getting paid about what I was making 4 years ago. For me the real world was actually easier and paid better, but it wasn’t nearly as fulfilling. God made it clear. And one day, hopefully sooner than later, my wife and I will plant churches cause that’s what God has called us to. Not easy, but exciting.
I’ve also noticed in the “real world” most people get 2 day weekends. I often feel guilty if I take more than my one “sabbath” day off of work as a pastor. What’s up with that? Maybe it’s my own issues.
As far as the comfortable Christian bubble, maybe the real call would be for those working in churches to stir the pot and be agents of change, not allowing churches to get stuck creating a bubble. Let’s be an example of interacting with our community and living missional lives.
Just my random thoughts.
Anne, I’m a pastor and I totally agree with your comments on this post. I’m often so disappointed with pastors, even though i R one.
Anne,
Totally agree with this post. I’ve been working at a church that planted in Colorado at the beginning of this year, and I’m leaving because we didn’t get enough support for two full time staff positions – would have been nice to know this before I moved out here, but oh well!
For me, after fifteen years of ministry, I’ve realized that a lot of the “leaders”, whether they be full-time paid staff or elders or whatever, are very complacent and smug in their position, and that once they get stuck in a routine, it is nearly impossible for them to break out of it. I know that I have experienced that myself in my own ministry.
I like the idea of “holy discontent” – Mark Batterson also describes it as “chasing a lion”. Just this year, I’ve found my true passion – not church work – but trying to stop human trafficking and end child slavery. So now as I leave this church position, move back to Ohio, I’m looking to find where I can make a difference. I don’t want to settle back into apathy now that I know what I’m supposed to be doing.
Again, great post.
It is, in the end, all about the leadership. If they allow an environment where there is no accountability or standard, they will attract a lazy staff.
I loved Michelle’s comments about GCC. From my external observations, Mark Beeson and his senior leaders have established a culture and system that nurtures long term, high capacity ministry. That should be our goal.
kdl
so…to inject a little humor….are the old fat pastors also the lazy pastors?
I completely agree and find it hard to be on a church staff as well. I have only been on staff for 4 months, but I can see how this can happen.
Thank you for your post…and no, this was not too harsh on us! We need to hear it! And we need to hold each other accountable to the things God calls us to do!!
Blessings to you, Anne!
great thoughts. there are definitely the people who take jobs at churches because it’s “safe,” and i feel it’s very important to call that into question. I feel like this kind of accountability allows for necessary pruning, and should be asserted more often!
I commend you for your bluntness. Somethings things just need to be said.
There are so many people who work their tails off in the church staff world–but there are also many who float along. And there are many who want to be full-time on a church staff because they believe it’s easier than being in a non-church job.
Bill Hybels is a really smart man.
Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!! Your post reminded me why I went into ministry. I was 17 years old sitting in chapel listienng to Tom Farrel preach about serving God in full time ministry. I knew that God was calling me into the ministry….I have to remind myself of that day when I went forward during the invitation and commited my life to full time ministry. It has been tough!!! Very tough!! But God is faithful…and will finish the work He started in me 15 years ago…
Thank you Anne!! I needed that…
God Bless!!
@ Randy Jeter re: HABITUAL AVOIDANCE OF CONFLICT.
That’s it; right there. Nailed.
If I’m going to effectively manage a team, I have to call people out sometimes when they’re not getting the job done. Tough to do that if the culture habitually avoids conflict.
Anne,
I’m going to print this post out and stick it on my office wall. Thanks for having the courage to write it.
Travis
Are you talking about me? Just kidding, great post. Glad you had the courage to hit publish.
Thank you Anne. I know I am probably just having a rough road lately, and maybe this is covering ground already covered, but I felt the need for an immediate response.
Not only do I agree with your (and Bill’s premise, but I am just so fed up with the sometimes soul-crushing fear of saying some negative in a church context.
While I am not in favor of character assassination, or planting doubt, I wish more of us had the intestinal fortitude to just tell the truth more often.
I appreciate your post Anne.
?the reason a lot of people choose to work on a church staff is because they?re too lazy or too afraid to get a job in the real world.?
It is not only an issue of laziness, I know of a lot of jobs in the “real world” where you can be lazy. I think a lot of church staffers are “afraid” of working in the “real world.”
Church staff positions can be such a black whole for Christians because they spend 5-6 days a week doing “churchy things” and lose their ability and desire to be around non-Christians. This is true for pastors, administrative staff, and even active volunteers.
Don’t get me wrong, the Church needs leaders because there is so much to be done, but Christians are called to be about the Kingdom of God and that means we must be around people far from Christ.
Pray for me as I try to figure out how to do this personally.
I want to push back a little harder. I’ve been thinking this over all day.
I think this post has opened both a door and a window that has given people permission to disrespect and dishonor their church leaders. Coming from a pastor’s wife that sees the toll full time ministry takes on an individual as well as a family, this post hurts deeply.
For the sake of being real, relavant and raw, I don’t think it’s worth it to stir up dissention.
As I stated earlier, there are lazy people everywhere. I don’t think it’s a church issue. I think it’s a humanity issue.
Anne!
This is Why I Love your Blog! You are Bold Enough to Blog about these Issues! I Love it! Your Blogs Challenge and Stretch Us as Believers and THATS what its all about! I love the Little Christian Bubble comment … actually .. I loved ALL of it!
Way to GO!
Nice work Anne!! A revolution from an outside-the-cubicle thinker…
Michele, I agree but issues need to be discussed. Opening a door is one thing but it is each individuals’ responsibility to respond in a manner that is uplifting.
I cannot be responsible for their responses.
If we keep our concerns to ourselves, and don’t feel like we can discuss hard issues we encounter (not at your church specifically but from the responses, we can see it is an issue) nobody will ever grow.
I’m willing to take the risk and the fall for bringing up things people don’t like to talk about. We don’t talk about SO MUCH that we need to.
Again how people respond is up to them.
BTW, I should note preserving unity is a big passion of mine :) and I’ve had to walk through learning that the hard way. There’s a section in the free chapter of MCD up there that talks a little more about that.
Michelle wrote “For the sake of being real, relavant and raw, I don?t think it?s worth it to stir up dissention.”
But Michelle, what you wrote there is exactly what Jesus did. Jesus was the ultimate dissenter, all for the sake of being real, relevant, and raw.
Thanks again, Anne.
Yup
i’d be curious how many of these comments were posted by church staff members who were reading blogs at work. lol.
Hummm, interesting discussion. Admittedly – this is my first visit to this blog.
I agree with Michelle ? I think if we are part of a church family, we should respect those in leadership. If we don?t ? perhaps it is time to find a new church.
yup, amen. not just in church, but in nonprofit ministry, too.
Boy is that true. I can honestly say that I didn’t get into church staff work full-time thinking it was easy. And I was right. It was very difficult. I had Fridays and Saturdays off and most of the time still went in both of those days and could never get a Sunday off. On the other hand working every day with my senior pastor I observed him playing on his computer, reading books, going out to lunch with other staff, checking out cool videos online, and shooting videos for sunday, etc. He didn’t need to put 10 to 20 hours a week into preparing sermons because he got them online from Ed Young, Andy Stanley, or someone else like that. What a gravy job.
Tom Becker
Actually, I think there are three groups of church staff:
One, as you describe take jobs at churches because they are easier. There’s usually a decent amount of Christian benefits – bosses that are encouraging, co-workers who care about you and a generally nice work culture and environment.
A second group are those “I’ll do anything short of sin”, on fire, called like crazy people. And these people are the ones who get out of balance because they end up putting too much emphasis on their ministry and not on having a life!
But I think the third group are those who aren’t necessarily lazy but aren’t called. They want to work hard, but they are still outperformed by those who go the extra mile.
I was on staff at a large ministry that does a number of large events. As we started, we actually hired three folks from another ministry that had done large events longer than we had. While they were not lazy, they stood out as poor performers because everyone on our tight knit staff were over achievers.
I think as called leaders, we have to be try to find people who are sold out but realize we may have to put up with the others and accept their smaller input as a means to the end we’re hoping to achieve.
Wow Anne, I wish I had written this post. I’ve thought it so many times, but have never been brave enough I guess.
I came to ministry late in life (just 6 years ago). Before that I was in the self-employed business world where you either work or you starve. As a business owner I lost sleep every night before payroll was due. I have carried that same passion and work ethic into my church life. Sadly, much of what I see in the church work world would never cut it in my former world.
Thanks!
Ron Edmondson
http://www.ronedmondson.com
Anne, thank you for discussing these controversial topics, I really appreciate your response to Michelle.
Michelle, I understand your point. But I agree with Anne, that we need to talk about these things.
The unwillingness to shed light on these issues and discuss them openly and un defensively is what eventually creates hiding, dissension, rebellion, irrelevance, blindness.
While I will agree with you that this could be a problem and probably is at most larger churches, I’m afraid that many people will generalize what you are saying and apply it to churches of all sizes. In most smaller churches, the pastor is called upon to do everything. (And I know that most churches stay small if this is the case. But the honest realization is that most churches in America are under 100 people and have this type of leader)
He’s the one that is called in the middle of the night, he’s the one that has meetings almost every night of the week because that’s the only time people can be there, he’s the one doing funerals and weddings, he’s the one preparing the message, he’s the one doing all the graphic design and stuffing bulletins, he’s the one who attends all the different functions of the church. And then he’s also the one who hears the complaints if he’s not in the office at 8am.
Maybe it’s growing up in a small town, but I have witnessed so many people who have no respect for the pastor or the pastor’s family. I’m not complaining, because I feel called to do what I am doing, and I serve to please God not others. And I think my church is an exception to most in our community. But I can’t help but think in our society today, the pastorate has lost the respect that it deserves. Those that serve well are worthy of our “double honor” and instead most churches treat them as the complaint department.
I’m sure there are those who are lazy and not doing what they should, but let’s not forget to honor those who are serving and devoting their lives in service to God.
Mike, you’re absolutely right. My dad was a pastor of churches no bigger than 150 – 200. He was usually the only staff person and I spent 10 years and was certainly not lazy. Great thoughts.
I’ve been both (vicariously through my pastor hubby)… He has been on staff at a church and has been led by God to venture out of the safety and serurity to follow His calling. Back in a church, we quickly got COMFORTABLE and COZY (and maybe even lazy??) in our Christian Bubble. We are not called to be comfortable and cozy! Now, with church planting, we definitely aren’t comfortable or cozy, but we’re riding the blessing of being in His will. On top of that, I have a “real job” out in the “world” which has been an eye-opener and has stretched me to reach out and interact with more unbelievers than I have since I’ve become a Christian. Again, I super-thankful to be OUT of the bubble. Now, not to return to the bubble… a daily challenge :-). Thanks for posting this. No time to be lazy church workers…
This got me thinking. Thanks Anne. One thing I struggle with is the “am I doing enough?” or “am I really making a difference?” One of the areas pastors must take care in is not seeing praying, meditating, thinking, writing, studying as falling into the lazy catagory. Those are part of the hard work areas that can be put aside for the sake of the “doing stuff” that appears as hard work in others eyes. Much of our work, people don’t know about. But, we do need those in our lives we are accountable to who will ask us this question in ministry, especially if we are poor time managers and get distracted easily – uh me – ok, its my creative genious thorn in the flesh aspect of who I am :)
great post, thanks. I appreciate the harsh statement and the writing to back it up. I work with YWAM and have for the last 14 years. Recently my family moved to N. Canada where my wifes family lives. One of the reasons that we did this was because we were out of touch with her family and also good old fashioned people who are not in ministry full time. Another reason was to get vision and direction and not get stuck. This is a great post to read and i believe necessary.
Thanks
Mike, I’ve been the pastor at the church of 150 too, and it is tough wearing all the hats. I think, however, that the same principle applies there also. It depends on the person. I know some very small church pastors who are paid full time (and paid fairly well), but are working part time or at least half heartedly. If that’s because of injury then they need help healing so they can be effective again. That’s why we launched http://www.hurtingpastors.org. (We haven’t done much with it yet, but it’s in process.) If, however, the person is there hiding out in the ministry, then that’s a problem. This probably happens in all lines of work, but in ministry it is sometimes easier to cover up sometimes. We all know pastors of even small churches who aren’t giving it everything they’ve got. (At least I think we do)
Anne,
My first thought after reading this post was “Woah! who got under your skin?” I work on staff and I know the tension of “Am I working hard enough? VS Do I have a life outside of ministry?” I’ve worked out in the real world and trust me there are plenty of lazy people there as well. Many people have commented on this already.
The angle I want to explore is motive and strategy. Phil Fulmer just got fired because he was not cutting it in the eyes of the UT administratiion. The question is “Who gets to decide if a staff person is lazy? I’ve worked in environments where one person thought another person was lazy but in reality it was a personality clash or you have a workaholic staff person who thinks if you are not sleeping on the cot in the office, you are lazy.
Let’s say there are lazy people out there on church staffs (which there are). What is the right strategy to lead them? Is it shaming them? I’d like to think that believing in people and giving them clarity in vision and mission (see Pete’s post from a couple of days ago) is a better approach. I’ve experienced both leadership strategies and production, creativity and results go up significantly with trust and belief combined with clarity. I really like the concepts that Stephen Covey writes about in his book “The Speed of Trust”
I am always challenged by your thoughts but felt like the tenor of this post missed it a little bit. It definitely created a conversation and that’s a good thing.
I don’t think “non lazy” people need to be offended by this post. If the shoe fits…
Brilliant and brave.
Thank you for messing with my head.
I do need to clarify I know there are lazy people EVERYWHERE…but I don’t write to lazy people everywhere. I am writing to lazy people on church staff. And sometimes people need a little tough love.
My strength is not to develop or give clarity to people…but I do know my strength is to bring awareness to issues people don’t talk about and sometimes that requires a firmer tone.
So that is where I focus my writing, at least in this post. I know there are people that I work alongside, like Pete, who add his strengths of clarity and vision.
Hi Anne! I see most here have agreed with you. I’m afraid I have to disagree with you… at least from where I sit. I’ve been on the church staff here at Crossroads since 2004 and I have never worked so hard in my life! To put that statement into perspective, I spent my entire pre-ministry life (28 years) as someone self-employed. When you’re self-employed, if you don’t work you don’t eat. With that in mind I say again – working at Crossroads is tough work. I’m not complaining or anything… love the work… love the challenge… but long hours, short nights, sacrificed weekends, stressful conversations, great expectations, high energy, and sometimes conflicting agendas all create a job you have to love or you won’t survive.
I commented more on my own blog. Thanks for writing. Looking forward to your book! Mark
It’s all good. Talking about it is good.
As someone who has seen what “destructive criticism” has done to the spouses and children of hardworking, staff members of our church and others, I am HYPER-SENSITIVE to conversation that would berate pastors and church leaders. Consider me a far end or the pendulum swing girl, I’m glad to hold out there.
Not only does it make my stomach hurt, but it gives me hives and makes me itch all over too. Maybe I need counseling. I don’t know. I am grateful for your leadership Anne, and I am pulling for you.
I get hives too, Michelle. I am a beat up PK on meds and have been in therapy most of my life. I feel you.
I’ve seen this even before people get to be on church staff in the different motivations for going to bible college or seminary. Some are floating or postponing being adult and facing “real life” by going to school. If they get through school with that mentality it’s a natural progression to continue with that attitude in ministry.
Great discussion. Those whose buttons get pushed or defensive might feeling guilty? Those who get irritated just might be working with someone not pulling their weight.
@Ron Edmondson, look forward to seeing what God will do with your site.
That is awesome!
Hmm, just stumbled across this and very interesting; both the post and the comments.
I know a few have used the phrase, “their stomach hurt”. I agree, my stomach hurts from this post.
I’m sure there are lazy, advantage taking staff out there. I’m not naive to that fact. What I hope is that for all the comments lamenting and lambasting lazy bubblefied staff, the folks making the comments are doing what they can in real life with those staffs to encourage, talk about and work through the laziness. Commenting here is great, but “commenting there” is waaay better.
“Real life” or “real job”? What? Working more than full time most of the time, usually not having a true two days off, always on the clock because of serious or perceived serious situations, working around secular job times, constant spiritual pressure and balancing it all with family (or outside of work life) doesn’t measure up to working in the “real world”? Again, there must be some real slackers out there that I’ve been blessed to NOT have worked alongside.
Whether we work in secular or ministry professions, how we do what we do must become more important than the what of work life; making widgets, brewing coffee, coordinating Sunday school, developing leadership.
I do think there are two sides to this story as we’ve seen. There are people who work very hard as full-time church staff members.and there are those that take it as a free ticket. There are those that are on call 24/7 and those that put in the 40 and go home. Also I agree with someone who said laziness is a human issue, not a church issue.
I have resigned to the fact that I will never be on staff at a church full-time again for various reasons some of which have nothing to do with this post. I believe we are all full-time staff members for God as christians. You don’t need to get paid to be considered full-time.
I’ve decided to be a prayer warrior for Christ and pray for my church along with the world and anything that needs prayer. I also pass out gospels of john to people on my walk to and from work. Just trying to be a light for Christ. Please pray for “The Least of These Ministries.”
This is actually the complete opposite of my own experience. I’ve met more workahololic pastors then ones who are underworking. Most of those I know are in smaller churches, not mega, maybe that’s the difference. Ministry is one of the most difficult jobs out there. I know personally of 2 pastors that have had death threats from people in their congregations, and way too many who have been treated so bruttally it’s not funny. I’m with those who got sick over this. I can just see someone taking this and using it against their pastor in a business meeting. Not cool.
Jill, please make sure to read my disclaimer in the post. I am fully aware of the pastors who work their tails off (which isn’t always healthy either). My dad was one, and I work with very committed people. This post was to the people who are lazy and asking them to suck it up and do the right thing.
I guess it’s according to your own experience but the “lead” pastor I was on staff with for 7 years would spend his time playing on the computer looking at funny videos to show on Sundays and for music he wanted me to do with the praise team, reading books on the couch in his office, going to lunch with other staff members, touring the new building we were building, and getting sermons on line from Ed Young and others like him. Not a whole lot of Bible study and prayer. Sounds like a gravy job to me. And I wasn’t on the outside, I saw this first hand in our church offices Monday thru Friday.
Anne,
I read through your comments, and Michelle and Mike both express more my point of view. My husband was the solo pastor of smaller churches for 17 years. I’ve worked with a couple of parachurch organizations myself, and I have seen very few lazy people, those who were were fired in short order.
I’m curious of 2 things, one is who are pastor’s to be accountable to? People keep mentioning accountability. At our last church my husband had what felt like 120 bosses. It gets pretty dysfunctional when you’re treated like the only employee to 120 bosses.
And secondly, how on earth does anyone know if anyone else is working or not, unless you yourself aren’t working? Seems like those who have time to observe others so much are they themselves not working. Get back to work yourself, quit judging others.
We don’t need to dance around it, there are lazy staff members out there. It’s a reality, ok. No one is saying your husband is one of them. I am not at your church to see if your husband is lazy or not, I’ll take your word for it. So take my word for it that my pastor was lazy.
Tom PS I don’t know, maybe he could be accountable to two or three executive staff members that are not brainwashed yes men. I agree he does not need 120 bosses. That’s wrong.
There should be some structure of accountability. Pastors who are on smaller teams should report to the Elders. And in some situations, you can know someone isn’t working simply because their job isn’t getting done. “Why isn’t that video finished?” or “How come this project is late?” or “What ever happened to this event that was supposed to happen?”
It seems like in many churches there is one extreme or the other. This is not always the case but quite often it’s in smaller churches (200-150-50 people or less), where you see the pastor overworked and doing everything and he is run by a board of elders or something to that affect. The other extreme is the large, mega church, for lack of a better name, where the pastor is surrounded by a staff of yes men/women, who do all the work. Someone does the music, works with the youth, and there’s a whole staff of people for each age group in the youth from college down to the nursery, there’s a financial/accounting guy, the visiting pastor, outreach pastor, missions pastor, media pastor, tech pastor and so on. I’m surprised some churches don’t have a donut/coffee pastor. But the point is this enables the pastor to sit around and do less than desired.
Let me throw in one rant/rave here if you please. When I was worship/arts pastor a couple years ago at a church of about a thousand in southern New Jersey, each of us were responsible for the shepherding of our own staff and volunteers. So basically the associate pastors and the Deacons were responsible for the spiritual needs of the congregation. In my department I had about a hundred+ people which included P/W, tech, sound/video, drama, stage crew, artists, etc. So I would think that at least our lead pastor could take on the spiritual guidance and shepherding of his staff of 6 full-time and 2 volunteer pastors. He never did. We had prayer as a team once a week at our staff meeting and that was it. There was never any time where he would sit with us individually and ask how our devotional life was or if we were taking care of our spouse and kids or anything like that unless he did it with the others and not me for some reason. I hope he at least prayed for us on occasion. We never even recieved any help with the shepherding of our own staffs. Other than books and worship/arts conferences at Willow and C3 at Fellowship, there’s was no help, no encouragement, no “you’re doing a nice job.” Just “we need to get better.”
Ok, I’m late to the party – but I have some thoughts anyway.
It seems as though most agree that lazy staff persons are in the minority. No way – I think Anne is right, they are the rule – but I’m not sure it’s completely laziness.
I think some is self-motivation. I used to work with some guys that were perpetually around the water cooler, but once defined expectations and goals were given, they were very hard workers.
Management/leadership principles are the same for secular/religious organizations – granted, the applications are different. I don’t why it has become so unacceptable for the church to daily operate like other organizations.