these days? i’m honestly not so sure. other than the obvious answer of “we have the truth… not the ‘relative’ stuff that our culture seems to spew.”
at cedarcreek.tv, we’ve just launched a website to find out whats wrong with the church. we’ve launched billboards all across our area advertising the website http://www.whychurch.tv and i have to say the answers people have put in so far have been very interesting.
i think, that perhaps the church not separating itself from culture, especially on a relational level, is something that’s wrong with it.
That we do nothing to change our country and the world around us.
For our Saviour who transcended racial, political, economic and social lines, we as American Christians do the exact opposite.
That it is so easy to just fade in and out of church and think it is good enough to be a follower of Christ.
That we had a generation or two that would ask “does he/she goes to church” as a way to measure somebody’s walk with God.
That we like to beat non-believers over the head with our “stands” and “protects” against certain immoralities but yet we don’t bend at our knees to serve and protect the widows, orphans, strangers and captives.
And yet despite where we have failed, God’s will still be done and His kingdom still grows.
pretty easy to go negative on this one, i’ll admit.
but there are some good things too…
+ many church members give consistently to support missions/causes (i know this happens in culture too, but nowhere near as much as in the church)
+ folks are routinely challenged (by the good preachers) to examine themselves, live to serve, and serve God. (i think folks in our culture can often go along time not really taking stock of who they are and how they’re improving)
+ we regularly get together and praise God. if glorifying God is one of the purposes of our existence, then the american church gives us a great avenue to do that on a weekly basis. (i know this can easily be done outside of church too, but it’s still nice having that time set aside for it).
I think it depends how the average person defines “church” a lot of people still think of church as just something you go to on Sunday. Of course there are a lot of people who consider church the body of Christ out and about in the real world.
Talking only about church on Sunday, then it totally depends on the church itself. As there are some churches who don’t appear to look anything like today’s culture at all. We sometimes refer to these churches as old-school or out of touch or even gasp irrelevant.
Then there are churches you visit on Sunday that make you instantly think you’ve accidentally walked into a rock concert or a mall by mistake.
THEN, there is the church that is the body of believers going about their everyday lives for the rest of the week. This is as important if not more than what we do on Sunday. Let me explain…Worshiping, Honoring, Glorifying God should be the #1 job of anyone who calls himself or herself a Christian. Yet, I fear, a majority of us think that we’ve done out duty one hour a week on Sunday and forget the rest of the week.
I think that taking care of the poor, being kind to your neighbor, being responsible and paying your bills, fighting injustice, sacrificing your comfort so that others can eat or have a place to live is worshiping, honoring, glorifying God.
Sorry to be such a blowhard, but this stuff is like the only stuff I feel passionate about.
John Ireland
as bryan said, would be easy to go negative.
so…presuming the example is a thriving church where the ancient Gospel message is taught, people are coming to Christ, and those in Christ are growing as disciples:
hope is what makes an american church different – just as it does for a vibrant church community anywhere in the world. no one and nothing else offers the hope that Christ brought and that is mediated through local expressions of the Church.
John 13 provides a great example of the radical difference people should encounter when they encounter Christ-followers. joyful submission…joyful?…really?…yes, really.
What makes church different…? After yesterday’s blog I can’t believe you’ve tossed another controversial bone for us to gnaw on! But hey.. more power to you!
You’ll get me into trouble for this!
What makes church different…? uhh not much really, but there are some redeeming factors. Here’s my view as an “alien” in this country…
– Church is republican
(which from what I understand means, they are for capitalism, not interested in social reform, war mongers, fight for the right to have my own personal weapon of mass destruction -guns-, look after yourself before looking after each other, exclusivists…). By the way that’s not to say the democrats are any better, please hear me on that… I think they are just as bad… but are we aligned to a political ideaology or our Christian belief?
– Church is self centered
(it’s all about what I think is right, not what about what God may think is right… hymns or praise songs!!!?? ever been in a church business meeting!!!??)
– Church is institutional
(it’s all about tradition… what I wear, how I act, when and how communion should be served etc etc…). Brought a kid to church (not the church I am serving in now) who was a little rough around the edges and had never been to church before… after the service he came running up to me with a glow about him… he said in a loud voice.. “Rob that was f….ing great, I can’t believe it”… a couple of people felt the need to scold him by saying that his behaviour was inappropriate, and I responded by telling them that his heart was in the right place… unlike there’s!
The difference:
– Church is community
(it really is… I know it may be difficult to believe for some of you… but the world is a lonely place… and our culture doesn’t lend itself to community very well… church does. We may not do it well, or could do a better job of it… but in general we really do try to make it work).
I wish I could say we were an accepting place, but more often than not we have a hard time accepting people who are “different”. I wish I could say we were place where broken people could find Grace, but more often than not we are prideful people seeking to excert our authority or worldviews. We are human after all, but are we not His people? Do we not have His Spirit in us?
I don’t want to sound like I’m bagging the church out, I’m a minister myself and its the place where God has put me to work in… I just want to challenge us…we are not being as effective as He wants us to be.
I know I’m going on the negative again… but here’s a comment Martin Luther King made 45 years ago…
“But the judgment of God is upon the Church as never before. If the Church of today does not recapture the sacrificial spirit of the early Church, it will lose its authentic ring, forfeit the loyalty of millions, and be dismissed as an irrelevant social club with no meaning for the 20th century. I am meeting young people every day whose disappointment with the Church has risen to outright disgust. Maybe again I have been too optimistic. Is organised religion too inextricably bound to the status quo to save our nation and the world?”
How relevant is that to us today?
As much as I want to be optimistic, we really need to self examine ourselves. A Pew Poll stated that 57% of evangelicals say many religions can lead to eternal life… ouch! What does that do to Church?
Well, American evangelicals frequently speak in a different language (Christian-eze) and succumb to legalism, marginalizing themselves from the people they are trying to reach.
But, we also have and still do inspire the greatest amount of philanthropy the world has ever seen…contributing more to charity than the rest of the world combined.
Paige
The problem is that sometimes little or nothing separates the church and the American Culture. But, we as Christians are to be set apart. An awesome next gen ministry in Corona, Ca seems to be onto something with their vision on starting a Jesus Revolution. http://www.generatelife.com
This is a frustrating question. We all want to see more tangibles.
As “off” as the American Church is-what would happen if the entire church ceased? How many people would go hungry? How many more folks would not have a home or hope?
What impact would that (church ceasing to exist) have on our culture? That gives me hope as a church to leader. Even though I know we must change some things also.
Jodi
My first reaction to that question was a sarcastic “HA!” But, I do have to say that the culture of my new church is quite loving and authentic. There is no image management and cover-ups there – hallelujah (for a change)!!
i would say that there isn’t much making the church different from the culture…
the difference i do see, that comes to mind, is in the use of technology and media for the cause of Christ…same tools, used for a different work with a different message…
follow up question…what are we doing to make the American church stand out from the American culture???
i’m not sure if it’s much different. people are still driven by their need to succeed & achieve the american dream. we’re in the same rat race…the only difference is that we have a fish on the bumber of our car.
i think the tide is turning though, and people are starting to really live the gospel. it’s just a slow process, and tiresome at times. it’s especially tiring at times for those speaking out against complacency & things like that…we spend week in & out trying to get people out of their christian bubble…and trying to get them to live the story of Jesus. it’s hard to see the progress of our work. trickle effect? probably so.
50% of pastors’ marriages will end in divorce
80% of seminary graduates will leave ministry in the first 5 years
70% of pastors are grossly underpaid (compared to the amount of work they do)
80% of pastors’ spouses believe their spouse is overworked
50% of pastors feel unable to meet the needs of the job
80% of pastors say they have insufficient time with their family
56% of pastors’ spouses have no close friends
80% of pastors’ kids seek professional help for depression
5 years – the average tenure of a pastor at a church
Pastors who work fewer than 50 hours a week are 35% more likely to be terminated
The average church member expects the pastor to be able to juggle 16 major tasks
Approximately 4,000 new churches begin each year while more than 7,000 churches close down each year.
Fat pastors!!!??? Lay off the clergy mate… if there really is one area the church is completely screwing up on… it’s the way they treat their leaders! We’re just blessed in this country that there are leaders, who, by the Grace and strength of God, can rise above it….
Does it stand out from the american culture?
I guess if a group of Christ-followers (known as a “church”) were on target with the mission we’ve been called to, we would be selfless in a world that is selfish. that would be one big difference.
Rob – you employee originally stated that pastors were fat, not me.
rachael
the american culture and the american church are the same…..needy. the church (meaning the people) need to look outward…out to the world….no one has learned to fish-we just expect our needs to be met. we can’t stay in our “christian bubble” that’s why the percentages of those stats are so hard to swallow….makes you feel for our pastors…they can’t do it alone up on the pulpit…
American Culture isn’t trying to make Jesus famous. The American Church is trying to make Jesus famous. The Amercian Church should be trying to use the American Culture for Jesus. My gosh….
brewha!
which culture are we supposed to be emulating? that a humanistic not a spiritual question.
Mike
I would say there are a great many churches that are not seeking to make Jesus famous. Besides, where is the command in the Bible to make Jesus famous? I see a command to make disciples, but nothing about making Jesus a rock star.
Comments
31 responses to “what makes the church different?”
these days? i’m honestly not so sure. other than the obvious answer of “we have the truth… not the ‘relative’ stuff that our culture seems to spew.”
at cedarcreek.tv, we’ve just launched a website to find out whats wrong with the church. we’ve launched billboards all across our area advertising the website http://www.whychurch.tv and i have to say the answers people have put in so far have been very interesting.
i think, that perhaps the church not separating itself from culture, especially on a relational level, is something that’s wrong with it.
That we do nothing to change our country and the world around us.
For our Saviour who transcended racial, political, economic and social lines, we as American Christians do the exact opposite.
That it is so easy to just fade in and out of church and think it is good enough to be a follower of Christ.
That we had a generation or two that would ask “does he/she goes to church” as a way to measure somebody’s walk with God.
That we like to beat non-believers over the head with our “stands” and “protects” against certain immoralities but yet we don’t bend at our knees to serve and protect the widows, orphans, strangers and captives.
And yet despite where we have failed, God’s will still be done and His kingdom still grows.
Amazing, wonderful and beautiful. That is my God.
pretty easy to go negative on this one, i’ll admit.
but there are some good things too…
+ many church members give consistently to support missions/causes (i know this happens in culture too, but nowhere near as much as in the church)
+ folks are routinely challenged (by the good preachers) to examine themselves, live to serve, and serve God. (i think folks in our culture can often go along time not really taking stock of who they are and how they’re improving)
+ we regularly get together and praise God. if glorifying God is one of the purposes of our existence, then the american church gives us a great avenue to do that on a weekly basis. (i know this can easily be done outside of church too, but it’s still nice having that time set aside for it).
…that’s all i got for now…meeting to go to…
Our production values and willingness to accept less-than-stellar quality.
The mass quantities of books we write. (Some are needed, like “Mad Church Disease. Many others are not. I won’t name any names.)
I think it depends how the average person defines “church” a lot of people still think of church as just something you go to on Sunday. Of course there are a lot of people who consider church the body of Christ out and about in the real world.
Talking only about church on Sunday, then it totally depends on the church itself. As there are some churches who don’t appear to look anything like today’s culture at all. We sometimes refer to these churches as old-school or out of touch or even gasp irrelevant.
Then there are churches you visit on Sunday that make you instantly think you’ve accidentally walked into a rock concert or a mall by mistake.
THEN, there is the church that is the body of believers going about their everyday lives for the rest of the week. This is as important if not more than what we do on Sunday. Let me explain…Worshiping, Honoring, Glorifying God should be the #1 job of anyone who calls himself or herself a Christian. Yet, I fear, a majority of us think that we’ve done out duty one hour a week on Sunday and forget the rest of the week.
I think that taking care of the poor, being kind to your neighbor, being responsible and paying your bills, fighting injustice, sacrificing your comfort so that others can eat or have a place to live is worshiping, honoring, glorifying God.
Sorry to be such a blowhard, but this stuff is like the only stuff I feel passionate about.
as bryan said, would be easy to go negative.
so…presuming the example is a thriving church where the ancient Gospel message is taught, people are coming to Christ, and those in Christ are growing as disciples:
hope is what makes an american church different – just as it does for a vibrant church community anywhere in the world. no one and nothing else offers the hope that Christ brought and that is mediated through local expressions of the Church.
John 13 provides a great example of the radical difference people should encounter when they encounter Christ-followers. joyful submission…joyful?…really?…yes, really.
What makes church different…? After yesterday’s blog I can’t believe you’ve tossed another controversial bone for us to gnaw on! But hey.. more power to you!
You’ll get me into trouble for this!
What makes church different…? uhh not much really, but there are some redeeming factors. Here’s my view as an “alien” in this country…
– Church is republican
(which from what I understand means, they are for capitalism, not interested in social reform, war mongers, fight for the right to have my own personal weapon of mass destruction -guns-, look after yourself before looking after each other, exclusivists…). By the way that’s not to say the democrats are any better, please hear me on that… I think they are just as bad… but are we aligned to a political ideaology or our Christian belief?
– Church is self centered
(it’s all about what I think is right, not what about what God may think is right… hymns or praise songs!!!?? ever been in a church business meeting!!!??)
– Church is institutional
(it’s all about tradition… what I wear, how I act, when and how communion should be served etc etc…). Brought a kid to church (not the church I am serving in now) who was a little rough around the edges and had never been to church before… after the service he came running up to me with a glow about him… he said in a loud voice.. “Rob that was f….ing great, I can’t believe it”… a couple of people felt the need to scold him by saying that his behaviour was inappropriate, and I responded by telling them that his heart was in the right place… unlike there’s!
The difference:
– Church is community
(it really is… I know it may be difficult to believe for some of you… but the world is a lonely place… and our culture doesn’t lend itself to community very well… church does. We may not do it well, or could do a better job of it… but in general we really do try to make it work).
I wish I could say we were an accepting place, but more often than not we have a hard time accepting people who are “different”. I wish I could say we were place where broken people could find Grace, but more often than not we are prideful people seeking to excert our authority or worldviews. We are human after all, but are we not His people? Do we not have His Spirit in us?
I don’t want to sound like I’m bagging the church out, I’m a minister myself and its the place where God has put me to work in… I just want to challenge us…we are not being as effective as He wants us to be.
I know I’m going on the negative again… but here’s a comment Martin Luther King made 45 years ago…
“But the judgment of God is upon the Church as never before. If the Church of today does not recapture the sacrificial spirit of the early Church, it will lose its authentic ring, forfeit the loyalty of millions, and be dismissed as an irrelevant social club with no meaning for the 20th century. I am meeting young people every day whose disappointment with the Church has risen to outright disgust. Maybe again I have been too optimistic. Is organised religion too inextricably bound to the status quo to save our nation and the world?”
How relevant is that to us today?
As much as I want to be optimistic, we really need to self examine ourselves. A Pew Poll stated that 57% of evangelicals say many religions can lead to eternal life… ouch! What does that do to Church?
Well, American evangelicals frequently speak in a different language (Christian-eze) and succumb to legalism, marginalizing themselves from the people they are trying to reach.
But, we also have and still do inspire the greatest amount of philanthropy the world has ever seen…contributing more to charity than the rest of the world combined.
The problem is that sometimes little or nothing separates the church and the American Culture. But, we as Christians are to be set apart. An awesome next gen ministry in Corona, Ca seems to be onto something with their vision on starting a Jesus Revolution.
http://www.generatelife.com
“”The mass quantities of books we write. (Some are needed, like ?Mad Church Disease. Many others are not. I won?t name any names.)””
One book that’s need is a preacher’s kid survival guide, but SOMEBODY won’t write it.
Please define “American culture”. Which culture are we talking about and what kind?
American ‘suburb’? “Modern”? “Melting pot”? and I’d like to know the definition of ‘American church’ also.
This is a frustrating question. We all want to see more tangibles.
As “off” as the American Church is-what would happen if the entire church ceased? How many people would go hungry? How many more folks would not have a home or hope?
What impact would that (church ceasing to exist) have on our culture? That gives me hope as a church to leader. Even though I know we must change some things also.
My first reaction to that question was a sarcastic “HA!” But, I do have to say that the culture of my new church is quite loving and authentic. There is no image management and cover-ups there – hallelujah (for a change)!!
i would say that there isn’t much making the church different from the culture…
the difference i do see, that comes to mind, is in the use of technology and media for the cause of Christ…same tools, used for a different work with a different message…
follow up question…what are we doing to make the American church stand out from the American culture???
i’m not sure if it’s much different. people are still driven by their need to succeed & achieve the american dream. we’re in the same rat race…the only difference is that we have a fish on the bumber of our car.
i think the tide is turning though, and people are starting to really live the gospel. it’s just a slow process, and tiresome at times. it’s especially tiring at times for those speaking out against complacency & things like that…we spend week in & out trying to get people out of their christian bubble…and trying to get them to live the story of Jesus. it’s hard to see the progress of our work. trickle effect? probably so.
but still we must persist.
great questions anne.
Since the question is broad, then I will take this to mean different from other religions… with that in mind, the Church offers hope.
Encouragement, vision and hope. We don’t believe it enough or ACT on it enough, but that’s the difference.
we have big giver’s banquets and fat pastors
Not enough.
Big giver’s banquets & fat pastors!!!!??? Ouch…
50% of pastors’ marriages will end in divorce
80% of seminary graduates will leave ministry in the first 5 years
70% of pastors are grossly underpaid (compared to the amount of work they do)
80% of pastors’ spouses believe their spouse is overworked
50% of pastors feel unable to meet the needs of the job
80% of pastors say they have insufficient time with their family
56% of pastors’ spouses have no close friends
80% of pastors’ kids seek professional help for depression
5 years – the average tenure of a pastor at a church
Pastors who work fewer than 50 hours a week are 35% more likely to be terminated
The average church member expects the pastor to be able to juggle 16 major tasks
Approximately 4,000 new churches begin each year while more than 7,000 churches close down each year.
Fat pastors!!!??? Lay off the clergy mate… if there really is one area the church is completely screwing up on… it’s the way they treat their leaders! We’re just blessed in this country that there are leaders, who, by the Grace and strength of God, can rise above it….
Source:
http://www.jesuscreed.org/?p=2693
http://www.maranathalife.com/lifeline/stats.htm
The absence of American culture.
Does it stand out from the american culture?
I guess if a group of Christ-followers (known as a “church”) were on target with the mission we’ve been called to, we would be selfless in a world that is selfish. that would be one big difference.
Wow. Rob’s stats are killing me. Seriously, that is a harsh reality but I guess for those who see it through the price is well worth the cost.
Not much.
Sadly, not too much.
Mike
Rob – you employee originally stated that pastors were fat, not me.
the american culture and the american church are the same…..needy. the church (meaning the people) need to look outward…out to the world….no one has learned to fish-we just expect our needs to be met. we can’t stay in our “christian bubble” that’s why the percentages of those stats are so hard to swallow….makes you feel for our pastors…they can’t do it alone up on the pulpit…
American Culture isn’t trying to make Jesus famous. The American Church is trying to make Jesus famous. The Amercian Church should be trying to use the American Culture for Jesus. My gosh….
which culture are we supposed to be emulating? that a humanistic not a spiritual question.
I would say there are a great many churches that are not seeking to make Jesus famous. Besides, where is the command in the Bible to make Jesus famous? I see a command to make disciples, but nothing about making Jesus a rock star.
Mike