I was recently reading through some old drafts I had written and saved. In the fall of 2005, I wrote this after listening to an Erwin McManus podcast. He said,
?We need to reclaim the movement of Jesus Christ – it?s not the place where people are forced to conform and be standardized. But a place where people are seen as unique and find their originality in Jesus Christ. ?I think those of us who have been entrusted with followers of Christ must not simply cast vision and call people to it; We must create visional environments where dreams and visions of those who work with us and serve under at times, have their dreams and visions set free and ignited.?
I’d love to hear your thoughts.
Is the modern church today producing carbon copy, standardized Christians or are we, as leaders, helping release God’s unique calling in each believer? As the Church, are we helping build and release others’ dreams or do we focus on our own?
Comments
40 responses to “Carbon Copy Churches produce Cookie Cutter Christians”
This is a very pertinent topic I feel, particularly in the ‘brand’ of church I go to. My old church that I was very actively involved in leadership in was rather ‘one size fits all’ and there have been quite a few of us who have crumbled under the pressure of never feeling good enough or that we fitted the mold. It’s exhausting to live up to I think
God created us all differently with unique gifts to accomplish different things. While submitting to leadership is important I think we also need to stay true to our calling.
As leaders I guess we need to also respect and value those entrusted to us and see their potential, hmm that’s the challenge!
as churches become more like corporations this is defintely happening. you fall in line or you need to move on somewhere else. for instance, when the local body does not make decision, or cast vision – they are relegated to servants and employees. however, each church seems to do what it does best, so thet tend to foucs on the gifts and talents of the leader(s) not the individual gifts of the body
for example, my calling (now on hold) was to provide finincial acumen to the local church but if your church does all that work in some far away corporate office – well, you gotta move on, do something else, or do something outside of you gifting/calling. gotta love church corporate vice presidents (i mean, vision casters)
Warning: this is my lifelong soapbox.
Anne, I couldn’t agree with you more, except I would disagree about vision (just a bit). I do think the church needs to provide a place where we encourage and inspire each other, so if that is what you mean about vision, then I’m all for it. But I think people need more than that. From what I have seen, people need to have the kingdom invested in them, personally. Jesus chose 12 when he could have had many more. I think that was an intentional investment of his mission into there lives so that it would continue to be something after he left. He chose the most diverse group you could imagine and encouraged their individualism. Yet, he lived with them life on life to mold them into people who could continue his work and lead the early church. This is so much more than a small group/Bible study/read a book together/blah blah. It is an intentional relationship that leads to transformation.
OK, sorry to preach, but this is why I love deadlyviper.
I think it depends on the church and the location. What’s working for a suburban church may not work in an inner-city church. You have to reach the people where they are.
I actually think that corporate churches are doing a good job with this. They are working hard to reach all people and not just the trendy or popular.
Raised Catholic and got nothing, nada, zilch out of it.
Became non-denominational Protestant and have loved every minute of it. The 2 churches I have been blessed to be a part of are authentic. The one I go to now, Calvary Chapel Port St Lucie, is even more so than the first one. My spiritual life has grown leaps and bounds since being in this church. The church family has embraced us and helped us get connected and grow. It’s not their agenda being produced in my life. It’s God’s. Beautiful.
Heidi nailed it:
It’s not their agenda being produced in my life. It’s God’s. Beautiful.
One of the problems that I have with church right now is that in order to be a part of most churches (perhaps this is more of an epidemic in the Northeast, I don’t know) is that you have to go through a set of classes to “learn the DNA of the church” before you can do anything within the church. Or you have to take the classes simultaneously. I’ve seen really cool, edgy, authentic people walk into those classes and clones of the pastors walk out.
My fear is that, in many churches, cookie cutter christians are being created rather than Authentic Followers of Christ.
Just my two cents…
i think we are turning the corner on this…i think that churches are starting to realize the cookie cutter dilemma and the tragedy that it is! i know that our church is really focusing on discipleship and training up people to do the work God has for them to do…
Erwin McManus ROCKS!!!
I agree with Tony’s first sentence. When the church started adopting the “pastor as the CEO” type of model that actually hit it big when a certain leadership guru hit his stride, I think it was very damaging. Churches were seen almost like corporations. Down through the years churches and pastors have always copied a “successful” model of another church or the way someone else preached. We became copies so why not the people? Individual visions for each church also allows individual visions for each Christ follower.
I think that is at the heart of all of the conversations being had about people owning their faith. We have done people a huge disservice by prescribing a step-by-step, cookie-cutter approach to personal spiritual growth. Instead, we should see what we do as an opportunity for people to have THEIR spiritual vision ignited. The former leaves us in a place where many church leaders have short-sighted God by questioning people’s experiences with Him as unauthentic to the point that we no longer think God acts and works in ways the Bible clearly shows He always has.
“Almost” like corporations? That’s generous. There’s a segment of “church” here in the US that has become a niche industry. If we offer better products and services than other churches, we can get more people to come put money in the plate.
Well, I think we have been told we are not creative and therefore we all think we want a formula. I mean it takes all the guess work out of it, which appears good, and hence loss of creativity. So many churches develop “how to” programs and unfortunately that’s where a lot of Christians are stuck. Mainly because there comes a point where you have to push through and personally seek God to find Him. I do think churches need to speak to that and encourage people that God created them personally for relationship and he has gifted them for specific purposes.
I posted on nearly the same subject yesterday on my blog.
It became dangerous when church turned into business. Just as a corporation strives for better bottom lines and higher profit margins, it’s no different from the church that strives for full pews and offering plates. Those corporations beget brainless cubicle dwellers, so does the church beget brainless pew dwellers. The church has forever tried to fit into culture and society and never thinks of the outcome of its actions. It’s quite sad.
However, the trend is shifting. Thank God. It will take time and prayer, but the church is waking up and things will change.
i hate to see how people get a passion for God, have a vision for how they can be used by him only to get shot down by “the church” because it is not in line with their vision or because they didnt have the idea to begin with!!! Toe the line or keep your distance, we stink at this in ireland, we do not allow freedom to explore what God might have for our people. Its a fear thing i think BUT it is why my brother does what he does (concert & music promotion) without the support of the church at large…………………..by and large they are not interested, he doesnt fit their mould.
I think that God’s vision for your local church is like a river, it’s designed to keep moving and different folks add to it as they become a part of that local expression. Therefore as leaders we need to help people discover their God given gifts and vision and incorporate that into the local church. Easier said than done?
In the immortal words of Steve Taylor; “Cloneliness is next to Godliness, right?”
This is a really interesting question. I totally agree with what seems to be the growing consensus…Churches not reproducing their agenda but simply allowing God to work and move within the body. I also believe that this goes both ways. The opposite danger is that a church will become divided in its mission or focus. I am all for empowering people to become all that they can be. My fear is that this can produce self-centered and self-serving Christians. We have to be so careful to check our motives. Am I pursuing this because God is calling me to this or do I simply want recognition for who I am and what my gifts are. That’s not how Jesus said his Kingdom works. So how do we empower Christians to fully devote themselves to all that God has created them to be without creating an atmosphere of self-centered service?
I think you are on to something here. Ten years ago you didn’t see as much CC as you do today because information is out there so quick. We know more about churches that are doing great things, we want to do great things so we CC. I do think we can learn a lot from churches that have gone before us, but we have to run everything through the “does this work for us” filter before doing it. I know a pastor that once told me he had only written 1-2 sermon series in 7 years, he just copied what Rick Warren and Ed Young were doing. The problem with CC churches is they will move to whatever is hot on the market rather then focusing who God has called them to be.
The church is producing culturally-driven Christians rather than Biblically-driven ones. Rather than focusing on what God calls us to be, we’ve made an assumption that God wants all of us to be building strong families, applying theology in our cubicles, and living very materially comfortable lives. Pleasant as those things may be, none of them are what the gospel is actually about.
I agree with Jarrod and Heidi. It depends on the church (purposely little c) and your…culture.
Ive gone to a church that is fairly popular in the city where I reside, yet i dont feel as though I grew tremendously in my spiritual life. Thankfully, several months later I found the most amazing church http://www.reunionboston.com
I am not going to pretend to understand the distinction between urban areas and suburban ones but I know there is one…. just as culture varies in the different regions of the United States. Im sure this next statement is biased, to a certain degree, yet I feel as though certain cultures foster carbon-copyness
I want to be up front and say that my husband and I are lead pastors of a 7,000 member church in Florida. I look at both sides of this coin all the time. It is really tricky. There are lots of creative people in our church. There are lots of non-creative types too. Not everybody wants to create and innovate. In fact, most people really do want a very clear series of steps to go through and to know what the outcome will be. Most people have complicated lives, and they want their church experience to be simple.
For types of people who are creative innovators here is the catch. I am all for innovation and creativity. But just because you may want to innovate doesn’t mean I have to give you the church as a platform of expression. So many people come to me with great ideas, and I fully release them and ecourage them to go for it! But more often than not I don’t let them use the church as a platform for expressing that idea unless it contributes to something we are slready investing in.
Here’s why: Saying yes to your idea always means saying no to something else. Our resources and time, the sheer amount of capacity our people have for intaking and processing information and attending events and outreaches — all of those things are limited. So when we say “YES” to one idea, we have to divert recources and attention from another idea — that means saying “NO” to something else.
Bottom line is this: creative Joe has the option to leave. I do not. I have invested 10 years and my life savings and the lives of my fmaily in building the church. Joe creative has not. If the church goes bankrupt, I will incure the debt. Joe creative will not. So if Joe C wants to to an amazingly creative idea he is welcome to do so. But I have no obligation to let him use the church as an expression for that idea.
So as a pastor, I should no hoard people with gifts and repress them. But as a church member, I need to understand that the church is not obligated to be a platform of expression for my gifts. If it works out for you to have a platform in the church, then great; but if not than use your creativity to to look for other venues of expression.
Kerri, I might have miscommunicated. I didn’t mean the church/expression should be the place/platform the dreams should be expressed, simply that the church should surround believers and help the discover, embrace and release their dreams. We (generally speaking, as church leaders) find it easy to think that it must happen within the church walls…
A very “generic” for instance…What if a member of a local church had a God-given dream to feed the homeless. Obviously the church could support him by saying “use our resources” — but I truly believe that is not the answer. The Body of believers should encourage him, support him, and connect him to ways that he could do that. I’m sure there are others in the church with a similar passion, or maybe someone who has the money but no time…who could invest in this person…or someone with a small building they could open up or rent out on the weekends for a soup kitchen…or anything. The pastors and church staff should be open to listening to, dreaming with, and releasing this person to do his God-given dream, instead of saying, “well that is cool and all, but go teach the 7 year olds.”
That is what I mean…
Maybe I am reading too much into your fourth paragraph, but you DO have the option to go.
You may have invested so much (and don’t get me wrong, I understand this more than I can verbally express) but we are only given what God wants for us to have, and in a moment he could ask you to give all that up and lose everything.
Given your passion, I have no doubt that you would do what He calls you to do, of course.
Jesus Christ is a fabrication in your mind (and mine). And since he likes to * me in the * each and every day, he can * my *. And, the holy spirit is an evil being who * people over. There, I basphemed the holy spirit – now I’m going to hell. (as if this life here hasn’t already been one)
(I edited out the obscenities in this post–but am leaving it up because I think deleting stuff like this isn’t the answer. Sorry if the references offend anyone. – AJ)
Alvin, I’m really sorry you are so turned off to God and faith and that your life here has sucked. If there’s anything we can pray about for you or if you want to share more, feel free to email me at anne (at) flowerdust (dot) net.
great topic, anne…
first, erwin (not surprisingly) put great words to this issue; no need for me to add to them (as far as making his argument)
second, i see real empowering and releasing happening in my church community; i also see some parroting that sometimes is discouraging (that is, folks losing a bit of their uniqueness)
third, i sympathize with much of what kerri said, but i was a bit concerned by the words “building the church”; only God built the Church…not Peter, not Wesley, not me or anyone else on this blog (this is a good reminder for me, too)
fourth, well done for not deleting alvin’s comment completely
thanks!
Wow. There have been a lot of good comments made. This is a good post.
This hits close to home for me because one of the biggest hurst I’ve experienced in my life (and I am still being healed from) is a hurt I experienced in a church a few years back when I “didnt do it the way they did it for years, so in turn I was wrong”. Im all for respecting and submitting to leadership, but not at the cost of becoming clones and having no identity. Christ made us all with a purpose and unique design. We shouldn’t feel stifled or inadequate because we use our giftings differently than the person next to us.
I’m all for structure, but not to the point that people feel stressed and frustrated when it comes to being a part of a church.
I was inspired by both your post and Erwin McManus’ words. The art of being a leader who can recognize the individual visions God has planted in his or her charge is rare, indeed. When the church learns to take advantage of the strength and creativity represented in its body, it will be able to do the “greater things” God had in mind for it.
On the other hand, the body members must also remember that God has called them to their church, to be parts of the body. And while there are times for their individual dreams and visions to take the forefront, there are also times for them to serve and offer up their talents in the use of the large corporate vision.
As always, life is a balancing act.
Who is the ‘modern church’ anyways? IF it doesn’t reflect Acts, it’s not relevant or modern. I guess I don’t really think about being like or unlike other churches – who has time for that crap?
Love God, Love People, Make disciples – that’s all the time I have.
You’re a cool lady.
We must balance between every believer being a unique creation and teaching of sound doctrine which is the same for every person.
Mike
Hey, Anne — thanks for responding. I don’t want to give the impression that I want to get out of ministry. I love it and wouldn’t want to be anywhere else.
I don’t think I misunderstood your post, but I just responded to it through more of an application rather than a conceptual filter. So if we create environments that call out dreams and vision, then the obvious question is, “What next? What do the next steps look like in the context of the local church?” You kind of answered that in your response, so thank you.
In my experience, the potential for conflict and frustration arises not from people who become passionate about something, take responsibility for their passion and create a ministry or whatever. The potential for conflict arises when that individual puts the responsibility for fulfilling their dream on their local church.
I think there will always be tension between the expression of unique individual calling and the greater vision of the church. I believe that it is in that place of tension and reslotuion that God stretches us and grows us. It is the work of patience in us that brings forth maturity. (James 1:4) So that’s all. I am guessing that most people who read the comment by McManus that you posted would be in agreement with it. It’s in the application of the idea that it gets messy, but it is certainly worth the effort to work it all out. Some of our best ministries have been the results of passionate church members starting grassroots “good works!”
John — I know that I’m not building the church. It’s just an expression. ;-)
Kerri, thanks for the additional input. Love it!
Is the modern church today producing carbon copy, standardized Leaders? Are we living by God’s unique calling ourselves? Or do we just do what we learned at the last seminar? Until we realize that doesn’t work and go to the next seminar?
kerri…i thought so :) it just served as a source of a bit o’ edification for all of us
blessings!
I love what Erwin is saying here, it’s so true.
I think the challenge of leadership is projecting a strong, faith filled, bold vision and gathering and unifying people under that vision while helping each person discover their own vision and empowering them to fulfill it.
I’ve been to all 3 Mosaic campuses many times. They are pretty cookie cutter to me.
Los
Sorry to be so late on this conversation. Love the quote Anne. I think these are the worthwhile conversations we should be having in church leadership today.
These days I’m trying to view each person as a God created piece of art (eph 2:10). My job is to simply be the art director. How can I help position each person, each piece of beautiful art, in such a way that they impact and change the world as they give glory to the one whom created them.
Our art gallery (church) is going to look different than your art gallery. Not better, just different, unique.
As a pastoral staff member I can also see many different sides to this because – like Kerri – I immediately thought “How do you do that?”. I’m a worship pastor which means I work with creative people everyday. Sometimes this is wonderful, sometimes it is very challenging. I can say this because I am one!
I have been in a church where to be Christian meant I had to: homeschool, raise my hands (which i do), cover my head, be at church 5 times a week, march in protests, etc. I had to NOT: use birth control, not watch movies, not let my kids watch “My Little Pony” whatever. And all leaders were men and women were to treat their men like the king of the castle while they were supposed to act like a cross between a maid and a concubine. That sucked the life out of me. In fact I couldn’t find me in that environment. I had to leave. Who I am did not fit into that church at all.
In the church I am at today I think we do a much better job allowing people to be themselves, for lack of a better term. We are learning to be patient with one another and to encourage one another and to respect one another’s journeys even, which is big. We do have core mission values for our church but we are creative in helping people follow God’s calling. For lack of a better term I would say we lack “religiosity”. But there are times we must say “Great idea, but we can’t do that on stage this Sunday, or we can’t fund that right now.” We try to stay encouraging, but the reality is that it does happen from time to time. Some are understanding and some get mad.
I think a reality is that people group naturally with others like themselves. I’m not sure how that might feed into this discussion, but I think it’s true.
How can these purpose(market)driven churches all over the country help but create cookie cutter christians? So many pastors are clones of Ed Young, or Bill Hybels, or Rick Warren to name a few and they copy series’ from these guys and others and do the same videos and music, etc. One excuse I’ve heard defending the copying of other churches series’ is “why re-invent the wheel?” Well, I’m glad someone did re-invent the wheel because the first one or one of the first wheels was square. :) I realize cookie cutter christians are not only in the new contemporary churches I’m speaking of but also in some old traditional churches. Either way it’s a problem.
wow! Great insight. For years many good-intentioned christians tried to make me into their image; make-up, hair-do’s, high heels, fancy outfits, when I prefered to wear jeans, put my hair in braids, ride my horse to church (my husband got called in by the pastor for that event!)
I carried a lot of guilt/depression over not being like everyone else (nor wanting to) and having a messy house, paintings all over the place (I am an artist) cats rather than children. It took a divine talking-to from God, after several days of fasting, to get the answer that HE had made me with all my talents, faults, likes and dislikes and the only thing I was short on was faith to live the life he had made for me!
Funny the title of the book “MAD Church Disease” mimics one of the reasons the USDA is claiming a certain program is needed that will put hardship on many, including Christians.
In fact, this program will curtail the constitutional and relgigious freedoms of many that some call it the Mark ON The Beast. The Amish refuse to do this program and so do many other Christians who ranch, farm or own animals as a hobby.
NAIS is a business plan designed to benefit corporate ag, but the rest of us are dragged in to work and fund the program, while corporate ag gets a free ride. Under NAIS, you register your premises with the government, even if you own even one animal, such as a pet pot belly pig. (This step clouds title to private property.) All critters must be microchipped and all births, deaths and movements reported into a database. This costs time and money. (Factory farms do NOT have to do this, they get one lot number per group of animals. Any animal in that group could be diseased and who would know.) But if animal disease is suspected in an area, the USDA can depopulate a 6 mile radius (140 sq. miles of dead healthy animals.
I am not in the same business as big ag, but because I own horses, I am forced against my will to be part of the business plan with none of the benefits nor profits but bearing all the costs and risks. Over 90% of the speakers at the USDA NAIS listening sessions on youtube are telling why they oppose NAIS.
Corporate ag has used over $150 million of our tax dollars to push NAIS so they can tell their potential global market what a great food safety program we have here in the US. But how does my telling the government when and where I ride my horse insure the Japanese are eating safe American raised beef?