my friend hemant, aka, friendlyatheist, reposted monday’s blog about keeping your mouth shut.
his readers have left some interesting comments.
one comment in particular, caught my attention.
greta writes,
I gotta say, I don’t know if I could say anything harsher or more critical than the comments people actually made on the original post. I’m actually sort of impressed. A lot of them sound more hard-line atheist than me. I just can’t figure out why half of them keep going to church if that’s how they feel.
The one that made me want to cry:
Raising my hand: “Umm, pastor? I have a question.”
Damn. If that’s the thing you can’t say in church, there is something seriously wrong.
now, don’t get me wrong. that post wasn’t there to make everyone feel guilty or anything. i just wanted to know deep down, what some of your thoughts were and how you felt.
why do we feel that way? thoughts?
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Comments
26 responses to “an atheist’s response to “things you can’t say in church””
because people make “church” so much harder than it was ever meant to be…there is such a twisted view of what “church” is supposed to be…(i’m sure some consider it a disease and would maybe write a book about it?)
the cool part is we can have that view of “church” but we can “keep going to church” because we know it’s so much more…we know what the personal relationship with Christ is like…we want others to know that as well…we want others to experience life as a part of the Body…
It may not be a comment on “the church” as much as a comment on how we DO “church”.
So many people feel like church is a lecture, and they’d like the opportunity to raise their hand and ask a question…yes, even DURING the sermon.
I’d like that myself…
Church is often a lecture. At my previous church it was 2 lectures (and some sort of “fun” activity). I often felt like I was back in high school.
I just wanted a chance to ask questions in Sunday School/ABF. *lol*
Mike
I think it depends on how you view church. For me, church isn’t just a place I go to on Sundays to hear a sermon and sing some songs. It’s not even a building or place at all.
It’s the body. It’s people in community.
When I’m with a group of believers who are doing life together, it makes all the little things fall away.
This gives you the ability to ask questions openly and not be embarrassed.
This gives you the ability to discuss text.
This gives you the ability to worship and grow in Christ on a personal level.
I think we’re so used to a modern way of thinking: that man can solve all of the world’s problems. So asking a question would be supposedly “offensive.” But now we’re coming into this new age where we realize “oh, we’re merely men. we don’t know anything! There is Someone beyond us that we’ll never fully understand.” And I think thats why questions are starting to make their appearance again. It just gets tricky when we’re in this transition period….
Unfortunately some people just will feel guilty. And maybe they should.
I think in reality, all of the comments the other day are a testiment to how much we are alike…all of us. Even the friendlyathiest and all of us christians. We have so much in common.
I don’t feel guilty for questioning things, or for not feeling a connection to God in my life right now. I realize it’s these moments that make me close to God and closer to the average person, creating an opportunity in my life to relate.
I completely agree that the church has taken a stand back approach to ministry instead of a hands on-get below the surface approach, which I feel is needed.
Some of the times in my life when I have seen God’s truth the most is when I have had a conversation with a non-believer.
Good stuff.
http://www.vagabondrunn.wordpress.com
I think the answer is obvious, is it not?
We have taken what was described in the NT as an organic meeting, with mutual edification as the hallmark, and turned it into an organization with the presentation as the hallmark.
When the “professional” speaker is telling a passive audience the “word of God,” who are we to question him in front of everyone else? After all, he went to school so he could sit up there and tell us what God wants him to say.
Never mind the descriptions found in first Corinthians of a church gathering.
So, if I unerstand right, Greta doesn’t understand why Christians go to church, if they can’t ask their pastor a question.
I guess I would say to her that I don’t only go to church for answers, anyway. I go for communing and community.
Answers can be found in other places.
i think we feel the way we feel because we forget that we totally need jesus. every second of our lives. we are utterly dependent upon his grace.
but we try to do it our own way. and it’s painful. and it doesn’t work.
whereas, if we each individually relied on jesus, he would begin to manifest HIS body among us …. that’s what ‘church’ really is.
because this is what i’m afraid to say in church: “i hate coming here. i hate the community here. where is the body of christ? that is what i need. jesus. is he in you? i’m not seeing him. and i’d bet that you’re not seeing him in me, either. can we please start over?”
My response to the original question was concerning the right of homosexual couples to have civil unions. Politics and religion are ALWAYS messy, and as a liberal democrat in a conservative culture, it’s just rough. Of course, I believe the issue is more ethical the political, but whatever.
I’ve actually said this in church, but not often. My reasoning- for better or worse- is that you have to choose your battles and evaluate the maturity level of those to whom you are speaking.
If on some bad day I am a fight looking for a cause, then sure, I’ll spout off all kinds of controversial things I believe, and believe me, there are plenty.
If someone says something I believe to be false, and the Spirit has empowered me with an extra measure of intestinal fortitude that day, then I will speak what I feel compelled to say.
But some days- probably most days- I choose my battles. Some battles are worth fighting, and others only leave both sides injured. Another factor to consider is timing; it really is everything.
Besides, I have found that my established relationships and an ongoing lifestyle of compassion and sincerity will have more influence on them than my eloquent and impassioned arguments.
Christ is perfect…those that make-up His church are not.
so…we press on; we ask God what WE need to do to bring up there, down here…
(as an aside, i no longer have any problem saying “no” when He leads me that way; and, i have learned what Scriptural balance is. still, plenty others i know feel pressured otherwise.)
I grew up in a Catholic church complete with dry traditions, an emotionally detached congregation, and a priest with an Irish accent thicker than Guinness. I don’t think it’s fear that kept me from asking questions at that church, but rather my disinterest in seeking advice and truth from that environment.
The church I attend now has an extremely strong teaching presence that never fails to remind us that Sunday morning is not church. The lead pastor acknowledges the fact that people come and get their weekly feedings, but that’s not church. Church really comes alive within community, between small, intimate groups, where you can get to the nitty gritty and seek Jesus together.
It’s taken me awhile to go from a closed-mouthed, legalistic, church cynic to someone that is finally learning to embrace the word church. Church is now a place that I can ask questions and admit that I have doubts, fears, and weaknesses, and expect the same vulnerability from others. And sometimes it’s okay to have more questions than answers because strangely enough, that’s when I see Jesus and our desperate need for Him the most.
Oh, and Mars Hill Church in Seattle did something interesting with their “Ask Anything” series. They took an online poll consisting of everyone’s questions and the lead pastor answered the top ten questions during the series.
If that wasn’t interesting enough, during their last service of the weekend, they tested a text messaging Q&A session. People were open to text message their questions and the pastor would answer them right after the sermon with no time to prepare. (People weren’t scared of throwing hardballs either!)
I like the direction in which they are heading and hope that megachurches give that a whirl to encourage the congregation to engage and respond. Not everyone’s questions will be answered, of course, but perhaps it would let everyone know that questions are welcome.
Reading and rereading Acts 2:42-47, something popped out at me:
They still met at the temple. Then they still got together during the week.
My idea of church is beyond Sunday mornings. It is when I can meet up with other believers (even if we go to the same church or not), fellowship, discuss, answer questions, worship, lift each other up and pray over one other.
I don’t want my Christian walk to be limited to the just one day. That would suck.
I love seeing the people I love and I would love to see them every single day if I could.
Okay – That was my comment, so I guess I’ll comment about the response:
What a great question Greta!!!:
Why do we GO to church?
The humor of my comment – I think, is in this weird expectation of church services being so predictable (and boring quite frankly). No one expects some dude to raise his hand with a question. That would be weird and rude in some people’s mind.
I love the church; not the service (boring), or the culture (frightening) really, but the vision and purpose of it: a counter-cultural community centered around the life of Jesus Christ… ecclesia. There’s no greater, clearer vision for a community of people than the Biblical church.
I really like atheists alot, because they often share so many of my cynicisms and criticisms about Christianity today. There is something terribly wrong with Christianity! And yet, simultaneously there is something terribly right.
The vision of the church is pure and noble and good and beautiful; but sadly, the reality of it is often corrupt and dishonest and selfish and ugly. This is because people are involved, and the natural human tendancy is to mess stuff up. However, within all of us is this yearning for something new, something refreshing, something peaceful, something awesome. So we dream about it, we strive for it, we train ourselves for it… all in hopes of experiencing it. People are messy, but they desire to shine.
So, as ridiculous as church can be sometimes, I must always realize that I am a part of it. And it can only change when people like me become more like the Jesus Christ they claim to follow.
My simple answer to your question Greta:
I don’t GO to church anymore.
I’m more interested in BEING the church.
I wrote a post a while back on a very similar topic.. http://pianogirl.wordpress.com/2008/03/18/a-question-of-pride/
Just about how people feel that they can’t ask certain things inside the church because of how people will look at them or think of them.. This has been coming up so much these days.. there is something terribly wrong when asking a question is seen as offensive..
I am so glad I started attending a church where there is actually a “Question and Answer” time at the end of each sermon. And just so you know, some pretty hard questions get raised every week. I think it is a good model for any healthy church to start doing. If you have nothing to hide, then an open mic is a great way to show your honesty and openness as a christian community.
Oh yah that church I mentioned in the above post is called “The Meeting House” up here in the great white north in Ontario, Canada. Just in case anyone felt like asking those questions out loud in a service sometime! ;)
I think that hit exactly on why so many people have a problem with Christianity… It’s not our faith, it’s US! I think too many of us are trapped in the perception of what our fellow Christians would like us to be and forget that there’s a whole world watching us, wanting us to be ourselves, and that we should really be our CHRISTIAN selves.
“So, if I understand right, Greta doesn’t understand why Christians go to church, if they can’t ask their pastor a question.”
Actually, just to clarify: That was only one of the comments on the “Things you can’t say in church” thread that struck me this way. There were lots of others. The one about not feeling like they can ask their pastor a question was just the one that struck me the strongest, as being the saddest.
Oh, BTW: I’ve given my blog url here with my name, but you should be aware that my blog contains a fair amount of adult material, as well as the atheist and other writing. Please don’t visit my blog if you don’t want to see that kind of material.
learned a long time ago that non-christians slam christians when they admit they are human (non-churchy) AND when we act like we are perfect (churchy). it’s no win, and we don’t really care anyway
it goes with the territory – they killed Jesus and it didn’t appear that He won, either – but guess what?
water off the duck’s back in my opinion – let the criticism and cynicism come – it’s OK – we love our non-believing friends and are just being a little real in here, that’s all
(p.s. Greta – good bait, but no thanks)
Anne – I can see where some churches might inhibit open discussion. For me, I’d hesitate to ask a question for fear of looking stupid. My knowledge of the Bible has grown, but it lacks a LOT. I may not “get” something that is obvious to most. Sometimes God speaks to me that way – in a different perspective.
To me, the church service is a message to each of us, but addressed to a group. *I* wouldn’t want to sit through a long, drawn out discussion or debate about the specifics, especially if they didn’t apply to me. However asking for clarification could be helpful.
The beauty of small groups is to have time to formulate your thoughts and bring them to the table. It has been enlightening for me to participate in these discussions.
(Also, we’re moving back home to Okla – looking forward to meeting you!)
I was just asking myself this question – why do I go to church?
I don’t really know anymore…
I think that we ought to be deeply concerned about these sorts of comments. Because they are entirely true.
Most atheists have not actually rejected God or Christ, but have rejected the institutions that claim to serve and represent Him.
If they were untrue, we could dismiss them easily.
Unfortunately, these perceptions about the church are almost always true, and we should not pretend that the average North-American institution of denominational church is charecterized by openness, unity, joy, love.
But they should be.
As a Christian, I am determined to “be” the church, and change the way we “do” church, so that someday, God-willing, the ‘atheists’ will actually be wrong about what we have to offer.
funny thing about atheists…if they are right….that there is no God and that there is nothing after we die, why are they even bothering to say anything at all to those who do believe? If there is no God and nothing after you die, what does it matter what you believe or do while alive? If an innocent child dies of cancer, a fireman dies trying to save a life, Mother Teresa and Hitler all go to the same nothingness, what did it matter what they did while alive on earth? Even those who suffered under Hitler all went to the same nothingness. The athiest can’t even say I told ya so after death, but ironically, if there is God and an afterlife, that after death the believer can say “i told ya so” to the athiest, but he might have to make a long distance call to do so.
Atheists do make an excellent barometer, though, on the faults and problems in how people practice Christianity, as they do comment on them and offer insight, even though, I guarantee, that if an athiest sees those problems and faults, a Christian saw and recognized them first.