i get a lot of email asking for advice. and sometimes most of the time i think you guys would do a much better job answering this stuff than i would.
here’s an excerpt from someone who would like to remain anonymous.
“This tithing thing. My wife and I have been Christians and going to church for some time. We recently started tithing 10%. This is a huge step for us because of the amount of debt we are in from our past. Every month since we have started tithing, we have also bounced checks and been overdrawn. If you look at our finances, every penny (and some) is accounted for before we even tithe. But we thought we’d “test God” like so many people say about tithing. We really don’t spend any on extra things. We don’t eat out, or buy clothes, or spend much on excess at all. I’d be happy to show anyone my checking account statements any day.
But now we are getting far behind on our bills because we would rather not pay them than be overdrawn. I don’t want to sound cynical (really) but it is hard for me to continue tithing when I see that our home church has all the fancy stuff like big TVs and the staff always seem to have the latest gadgets and wear “hip” clothes when we have to be so careful when we get groceries. It’s not cheap feeding two adults and two little ones.
What do you think is more important? Tithing or being personally responsible with our money?”
dig in you guys…what do you think?
Comments
82 responses to “from the mailbag: tithing and debt”
I asked the EXACT same question in the comments here a couple of weeks back.
I’m curious to know what people think as well…
I’ll have to weigh in when I have a few minutes!
Wow, big subject!
First off, as tithers and givers, we have to trust the church with the money we give. It is their responsibility to be a good steward of that money and to spend it wisely. It’s not up to us to worry about that, God will hold them to account for it. Of course, if you are concerned, then get involved in the management of the church and check out the accounts for yourself.
Secondly, in my experience, as soon as I proved myself faithful to God in tithing, he started to help me get a handle on my finances and the gradual process of getting out of debt began. It took a while and a made a couple of huge blunders along the way (refinancing etc) but God led me through it. In fact, it was only when we answered the call to serve overseas, still in debt, living by faith with no salary or guaranteed income, it was only then that God allowed us to pay off the last of our loans and we started to save money for the first time in our lives.
It’s very simple in my life: I tithe, God provides.
hmm there’s a lot that could be said, but i think first and foremost our personal responsibility financially is doing what we are commanded… which is tithing. yes, it is hard, particularly if someone is in debt, but God is the provider and i have no doubt that if a person is faithful with their money, He will return the faithfulness.
I think we need to do both, give and get out of debt but that does require a lot of sacrifice. I’ve had to sell stuff, work extra jobs, cut things back and pray, pray pray for God’s extra provision. Once i got out of debt i could slowly begin to bring some tings back into my life but i needed to be careful so that i didn’t get into the same mess again. I would go to someone who has a lot of wisdom in the area of finances and open my life up to them. See if they can spot anything that needs adjustment.
This is a massively important topic to cover, as most Americans live on 110% of their income, so asking them to tithe without teaching them to steward is asking them to live off 120%.
Here’s my thought: 1)Steward, 2)Tithe, 3)Offerings.
1)Stewardship- Get your Dave Ramsey on. Know how much is going out, how much is coming in. Make the second number bigger than the first. Sell your house, sell your car, cut your internet, etc.
2)Tithe. After you get a grasp of finances, you must give to God, and the most basic method is giving 10% of gross income to God through the local church (this space does not allow for the tithe to local church discussion). If you can’t give 10%, give a consistent percentage as you work your way up to 10%. Be consistent, because God only gives seed to the sower. We must step out in faith if we expect him to provide for us. NOTE: Cut everything you can in an effort to steward and tithe. Don’t say you can’t tithe and have a TiVo subscription! God says we should TEST Him in this!
3)Offerings. Tithing is really training wheels for giving. Most estimates put the Israelites giving at 26% of their yearly income, not 10%. I’m sure Anne wouldn’t argue that people should give offerings to say…Compassion?
That’s my order: Steward, Tithe (gradual if you have to but consistent) and then give offerings above your tithe.
I’m a big fan of doing first things first. Our Tithe is a first-fruit. With that being said it’s one of those things I don’t view as flexible when it comes to our budgeting out of obedience.
If I were to stop tithing to pay down debts it seems to me that I’d be dishonoring God by paying for things that dishonor God (i.e. debt, mismanagement of finances in the past, etc.)
Also when we consider that we’re talking about 10% we really have to consider what we’re doing with the other 90%. As a Pastor I’ve never met a couple that would have made a drastic dent in their finances by removing the Tithe anyway. Most people were able to remove cable TV, sell a car or downsize their rent/mortgage. By making those adjustments they were able to continue to honor God with the tithe while getting themselves out of debt.
As to the issue of making judgments about the church and how it spends the money I really would have to take a step back. This is obviously a church that is filling a void in your life or you wouldn’t be going there. I’d say that if the fact that they are providing a high-quality atmosphere for you and your family shouldn’t be a reason to withhold. If you have a conviction that the money is being spent poorly, go to an average run-down church and tithe there. It seems strange that we’d join a congregation because of what we gain but criticize that they do things too nicely.
I appreciate the transparency of your question as I’m positive many people share similar feelings. At the end of the day however remember that tithing is a discipline of obedience to God, not something we do simply to pool money at a church. Bringing that tithe has a much larger spiritual principle at play that doesn’t show up in your checkbook or at a church budget meeting.
Tithe first. Give joyfully. If you disagree with a church about their approach to stewardship, go to a leader within the church and discuss it. If you still are not at peace, find another church community that you feel good about giving to and plug in there. It’s not about your money going to “nice things” in a church. It has to be about giving back to God what is rightly His.
Debt second. Because you were faithful to give your firstfruits in the tithe, you will be amazed at how quickly the debt issue is solved. It’s a supernatural thing that is difficult to put into words, but it is possible to experience. There’s still the need for self-control, for discipline. But I believe when you put God first, he aligns the other priorities.
Savings third.
Investments fourth.
The biggest problem that traps most of us in debt is materialism. We want stuff and we can’t stop having it. We need more and more, even though our houses are packed with stuff. When you really get serious about getting out of debt, you change your mode of thinking completely. You change your way of life. You must say, “I don’t need this crap. We can live on less. We can lower our monthly expenses. We can find a second or third job. We can sell half this stuff on craigslist. We can kill the cable and lower the mobile phone plans. We can buy generic groceries. We can tighten up this budget. We can kill off these credit card and loan balances with absolute fervor. We can save money and have six months of expenses in a reserve savings account. We can invest for our future and the future of our family. We can give to others who are in need. We have a plan that allows us to be good stewards of that which God has blessed us with!”
That’s the kind of attitude that gets rid of debt. And if you have that attitude, the first 10% of your money can so easily go to God because you’ve given yourself the margin to do so. There’s not even a question in your mind of whether you should give. It’s yes, every time.
Wow! God keeps giving me opportunities to give my opinions about this topic. Seriously…it seems that I am faced with this question time and time again and, lo and behold, if I don’t have a personal testimony to go along with it.
Several years ago, my husband and I were continuously being faced with the “to tithe or not to tithe” issue. We felt God clearly was telling us to do so but, my husband, being a CPA couldn’t make sense of it. We had bills to pay and we weren’t doing all that well with 100 percent of his income, how could we make it on 90 percent?. Finally, after much debate and struggle, we decided we just were not going to sleep well again until we did it. So, reluctantly, we did (apparently, we forgot about that “cheerful giver” thing). It began to feel really good and we were getting by. Then….the income tax refund check came. Hmmm. Do we tithe on that or not? Well…we decided that the logical thing was that we had already tithed on the income so we didn’t need to tithe on the return. We’d just pass that opportunity on by and keep that all to ourselves. I’m not kidding you at all when I say that the tax check for $1,569.00 came on, say, a Tuesday. We didn’t tithe on it on Wednesday and we didn’t tithe on it on Sunday. Whew….we’re thinking we’ve gotten by scott free. Well…on Monday morning, my son (whose bedroom was upstairs) woke and when I went to get him, it was really hot up there. I checked the thermostat…nothing. My husband found a random service to come and look at the upstairs unit that afternoon. The guy came in, went on his way searching out the problem then returned to me with his invoice. The bill was for $156.90 – I am NOT kidding. But it gets better than that, he handed me his business card to keep for future reference. I layed it on the kitchen counter and, about an hour after he left, needed to jot a number down. When I turned the card over, stamped on the back it said, “If you meet me and forget me, you’ve lost nothing. If you meet Jesus and forget him, you’ve lost everything.”
I believe in tithing. I believe that it is an act of obedience and when we are faithful to Him, He blesses us for that.
Lastly, we have some dear friends who basically bankrupt but who never ceased tithing. Oftentimes, someone would anonymously leave an envelope at church for them or they’d receive an envelope on their door with WalMart gift cards enclosed, etc. Someone once took their car, put new tires on, filled it up with gas and returned it to their driveway. That is the body of Christ at work.
Whenever I start thinking about money/tithing, I try and remember this first:
Everything is God’s already…he just let’s us keep 90%.
i was gonna write a sweet response but Clayton Bell already wrote exactly what i was gonna write. Good stuff! We’re doing exactly that and it is working.
oh..maybe a couple things to add.
we tried it the “no tithing” way, and it didn’t work-not one bit.
and as far as the attitude about the church seeming like they are well enough off-i’ve had the same attitude before.
but i’ve since taken the position that I will be obedient to God, and to give Him the money and trust he will do with it what he needs. sometimes churches and leaders and sinful hearts get in the way, but I can’t worry about that or stop giving because I think they are doing well enough without me.
I see it like this.
We should tithe because it is God’s, once we give the tithe it is the church’s responsibility to be good stewards of the money, but ours to be obedient in giving it.
Yes the Bible says to test the Lord, but that was only after he rips the Israelites for not being faithful and for robbing him. I believe if we are only giving to see what we get in return our hearts are not in obedience to God, but focused on ourselves and what we can get for our actions.
Personally, I side with continuing to tithe, because our debt has nothing to do with being obedient to God. Many times we get ourselves into debt and that has nothing to do with our ability to tithe. We can always cut financially in areas like Cell phone bills, cable bills, etc. I think it boils down to where our priorities are.
“if you love Me, you will obey My commands.”
yep, that was Jesus.
tithing is all a matter of obedience, right? obedience starts with loving Jesus. i find that when i’m bitter or hard-hearted or distrusting about obeying God, it usually starts because i love myself or my glory more than i love Jesus.
so first, before anything else, you have to continually return to your FIRST love … and i believe you will see the rest follow.
Hmmmm….I know this is going to sound condescending, but it’s to myself as much as anyone.
The church has big screen TVs so we need to take care of our personal finances first? It never ceases to amaze me how we as Christians will do everything “Christian”, but as soon as it comes to money we become card carrying Athiests.
Wal-Mart has big screen TVs. The bank has big screen TVs. But we’re ok with them as long as we can buy cheap stuff and keep the ATM fees low.
But a church only has that small mission of doing God’s work on earth.
A friend of mine is a music producer that works with people all over the country. It’s common for rock bands to live out of their van, and survive on peanut butter (not sandwiches, just the substance). But when they show up to record, they spend all they can on the music…because that’s their life.
But the Christian artists commonly drive up in $40k SUV’s. They record demos in $350k houses. Then they want to spend chump change on recording Christian music.
It’s always the same. “well…this is a ministry….” As if ministry is a hobby or some sort of charity.
Why are we asking these questions when the Bible is so clear?
“sell your stuff and follow me”
But it seems more people are serious about selling their stuff to promote party-all-night-and-rock-all-day.
“wherever your money is, that’s where your heart is”
But we freak out when the church spends 1000 bucks on a nicer TV than we have.
“you cheated God by selling that land and only giving me part of the proceeds”
No wait, shouldn’t we take care of ourselves first?
“God created all we have”
But we think we’re keeping 90% of our stuff.
“Store up treasures in Heaven”
I’m not going to tithe until I’ve paid off my house.
Lets get serious here. Did God not create the universe? Do we not have a huge tendency to love the things of the world? Does He not provide EVERYTHING that we have?
Why are we piddling around over a measly 10 percent?
Again, I’m preaching to myself more than anyone…because this is a big issue for me.
But money is owning all of us in this society…even if we have no debt. We’re supposed to belong to the One who saved us. Questions like this indicate we’ve lost before we started.
one more thing:
it’s all well and good to say what we as Christians SHOULD be doing. all of the comments about priorities, selling stuff, materialism — i think they are all totally truthful and right on the money. (ha ha)
but really, is a theologically sound argument going to make our brother (or myself) WANT to do this? it’s clear from the phrasing of his question that he’s a little frustrated with the command, he’s a little confused about God’s way of providing for him, and he stressing about how he can provide for his family under the circumstances and still serve the Lord. so ultimately, it’s a heart issue, not a law issue. the law was only meant to reveal the idolatry of the heart … and that is EXACTLY what it is doing, right?
after all, God loves a cheerful giver ;) and faith is credited as righteousness … perhaps what God wants to do is cultivate TRUST in our hearts. and tithing is one of His ways of getting us there …
I’m wondering if the bigger question is, “What is that church’s responsibility to that family?”. The way I recall the account of the early church was that everyone gave so that there was no one in their midst in need.
My heart hurts for you to be in such a termendous situation.Reading the letter above, it would appear you are at an impasse. You really are not doing any discretionary spending and you’re at the critical stop of needing money so you don’t have to file bankruptcy.
Honestly I think this is a situation where you need to look long term as well as short term.
Long term, you need to set yourself up financially so you can serve God with your money for the rest of your life. Needing to file for bankruptcy because you can’t pay your bills is not going to help you in the kingdom.
Short term you need to ask yourself what you can give sacrificially and still see progress in your debt. This number may change check to check – but the discipline of giving is what is essential here.
I think there is room to say “tithe and trust,” but I also know God does not want His people strapped by debt. Honestly, for the majority of people, they are not tithing because they are not spending their discretionary income wisely. It is going to a movie, having three iPods and eating sushi 4 nights a week – or tithing. Your situation is pay the bills and eat a modest dinner from the grocery store or tithe. Big difference.
Don’t misread me – I’m not saying anyone with debt should stop tithing. I am saying if you really have cut absolutely everything out (even sacrificing in comfort) and have made it down to the minimum payments for survival, and there is simply not enough money – then we need to look at this situation as unique.
The linchpin here is the story of the widow’s heart. Jesus was completely uninterested in the legalism of giving a certain amount and totally enthralled with the heart of the widow who gave sacrificially.
I think your second issue of how the church spends the money needs to be addressed on it’s own. This is a followership/leadership question. If God has placed pastors over you as leaders, you need to follow them. If you cannot sit under their leadership you need to take your family and your giving to leaders you can submit to. Again, this goes back to the heart.
I will be praying for you and your family through this.
Hi. I am the anonymous person who asked the question. And I do sincerely appreciate all your thoughtful responses.
You are also making a ton of assumptions about me and my family, so allow me to clarify some things.
1-We literally don’t have anything extra. We don’t have cable. Or internet. Or even a home phone. We have the cheapest wireless phone plans. We rent and have a fair priced house. For all of our marriage at any given time, both my wife and myself have worked at least 2 jobs. Right now I only have one but she has two. We don’t have TiVo. My cell phone is several years old. We frequently buy generic groceries. We have the minimum amounts of insurance we can afford. We don’t eat out. It has probably been a year or so since we have even seen a movie in a theatre. We don’t make a lot of money. And we would sell our cars if we weren’t upside down in them.
There have literally been days when we will skip meals or eat PB&J sandwhiches because we can’t afford to get groceries until pay day.
Several people in our church “community” know of our financial situation. One family has helped us a bit but while we wonder how we are going to pay our electric bill we get to see how other families in our “community” are getting their next pretty car, TVs, private schools, going out to eat, whatever…while they know we can’t even afford to buy anything extra to bring to our “community” meal.
I am wondering exactly the thing that Seaton commented above.
If this is the way “church” is “done” you can have it.
Thank you, Steven.
Hi, I’m dumbfounded to read all this comments about tithing. It’s such an old covenant concept and has no place in a Christian’s life. After the cross, the law was no longer in place. If you want to tithe, you should also be sacrificing animals! :-)
Please, folks, do a bible study on your own and don’t just believe what your pastor is teaching you. A simple google search will turn up dozens of web pages to point you to the truth in the Word.
You can start here:
http://www.nomoretithing.org/
or
here:
http://tekoapublishing.com/books/tithing/index.html
I’m all for supporting the local church, but not via tithing which puts one back under the law.
Thanks for letting me share an opposing viewpoint.
As Christ followers, we have to look at what Jesus said about the tithe. He said (Luke 11:42 NIV) “Woe to you Pharisees, because you give God a tenth of your mint, rue and all other kinds of garden herbs, but you neglect justice and the love of God. You should have practiced the latter without leaving the former undone.”
The religionist of Jesus’ day tithed, but they neglected the poor and the suffering. Jesus said they should tithe and take care of the poor and suffering also.
The Christ follower has a responsibility to tithe, pay taxes, take care of the poor and the suffering and get out of debt. And if materialism is the cause of our dept, we must repent of serving that god.
Just my thoughts….
gaj
Dear anonymous,
I really want to encourage you to put your hope and trust in God. My wife and I were in the same situation you are in for the first eight years of our marriage. We lived in cheap accommodation, drove an old car, shopped in the budget grocery stores, often couldn’t pay our bills, and the overdraft seemed to keep increasing. But we were confident that we were in the jobs that God wanted us to be in and we tithed “religiously” through it all and gave over and above that 10% minimum as often as we felt God prompting us too, even though we couldn’t “afford” to. The truth was, for us in Kingdom terms, we couldn’t afford not to give. For us, obedience was more important than the overdraft and loan repayments. It was really really tough and we had several arguments over financial issues through those years.
But God.
God is faithful, and as we tithed he gradually provided a way out for us. Our jobs didn’t improve, a child came along to create an added financial burden, but we did have peace in our lives at the fundamental level.
God will provide if you trust him at that fundamental level, and if you trust his kingdom economic system to overcome the world’s economic system. I still cannot believe how, when we were living from (very modest) donations as overseas workers, our debts were paid off and we started to save money. The bank statements literally did not match reality. He will look after you.
Try not to look at what others have and compare yourselves, fix your eyes on him instead. Guard your hearts against jealousy or even the faintest hint of resentment. God will take care of you as you are obedient to him and put him first. Pray, fast, tithe, give. Love him, love each other and love others more than yourselves. I know it sounds trite, but that is how the kingdom works. You are loved and supported and prayed for by new friends from all over the world through this blog – that’s pretty cool!
Let’s see how quiet it gets around here.
“What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, “Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.” (James 2)
Is it time to put up or shut up?
perhaps tithing IS being responsible with money. it’s important to realize that all 100% is God’s, not just 10%.
If you are in debt, then is giving the money you owe to someone else really “your” money to tithe?
I don’t have a lot to add other than to say this is really causing me to delve into what I believe about tithing and how we as leaders teach application.
It seems to me that the church is often guilty of pushing people into places where they just are not ready to go.
Does a baby know how to handle finances? Does it know what a checkbook is or even what responsible finances look like? And yet many churches (including ours) challenge people who are quite possibly brand spanking new babies to immediately be obedient with their money – when they may not even know the first thing about managing it. Money is a very spiritual thing – that’s why I think it’s covered so thoroughly in the Bible.
Maybe, just maybe we are going about things the wrong way. Maybe our first goal should be getting people healthy, giving them real life tools, and help in times of need. Then watch as God grows them, as the Holy Spirit convicts them, and they being to take steps of obedience.
I don’t know – it’s just a thought. (I guess I had more to add than I originally thought).
To me, tithing is first. The very second we get our pay checks, along with the deposit slip, the 10% tithe check is written! Cheerfuly done; not a moment goes by with no regret! Then, what’s left He (God) does His work by making that money work for us. And I tell ladies when I counsel them get several pieces of paper and spread them out on the table with write on each one what is to be paid (i.e., electric, water, house payment, etc.) 1.) Pay tithe first 2.) Pay Self (even if it’s say $15…..but have some money so you don’t feel deprived….then pay the bills that are due at the beginning of the month. What is a really great blessing is when I have $15 in my purse and a need is presented at least I have $5 to give….You cannot outgive God. It comes back to you time and time again. Now, I have $10 left for me….hmmmmm 99 cent fries from McDonald’s….reward yourself. But the giving is what is such a blessing. Believe me, I’ve tried it the other way and it doesn’t work! Wishing I had left me in pit city….giving makes me feel like I’m doing my part to spread the light of the Gospel all over this world! Clayton was right on target…..listen to Dave Ramsey; 3 hr. talk show or podcasts…he absolutely, unequivably does not believe in credit cards and what he says is grrreeeaaat!!!
Nice question Anne & anon.
I’ve given the advice many times to work on your debt and give to God as best you can. In other words, If you can give 10%, give that. If you can only give 1%, then give that. If 0%, well you get the picture. The main thing is to get your finances in order (Dave Ramsey is 1 of many great resources out there) and give to God as best you can. Work on your debt and then give when you are able. I’ve seen many families work on their debt and then work their way towards 10%. Hope that helps.
In light of your current circumstances, don’t give financially right now. The guilt you are feeling is not from God.
There are so many other ways that you can contribute toward your local church and to the universal church. Time, talents, and treasures are all ways that we can “give”. Maybe you can volunteer with a Sunday School class. Maybe you can make a meal for a single mother and her family. Maybe you can plant flowers around the church.
Western Christians are so hung-up on money. God tests us in many ways to reveal our weaknesses and what are the idols in our life. Our Heavenly Father does not ask us to be irresponsible to test our faith.
Taking something without paying for it is called stealing. But somehow our society thinks differently that if we use a credit card and cannot pay the bill it is redefined as debt. We believe that we have found a loophole in one of the Ten Commandments.
My recommendation is that you and your family pray about your personal situation. God will give you direction.
“As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.”
Proverbs 27:17
I’m gonna have to back up Esther on this one.
We are not commanded to tithe. Really. Seriously.
We’re no more commanded to tithe than we are commanded to refrain from shaving our sideburns or stoning adulterers.
10% is OT law . . . and really had to do with a lot more than just paychecks.
So, to Anonymous: Get out of debt. Ask Jesus what he wants you to give and to whom. He’ll tell you. Seriously. He’s alive. Just make sure you’re listening. Being a disciple of Jesus is so much more organic and life-giving than following empty rules.
I’d love to talk to you some more about life, maybe in a more personal platform. Shoot me an email if you get a chance.
Yes, 10% is OT law, but the NT talks about giving all we have. So there’s definitely a call to give. But that exact number should probably come out of prayer and family conversations. Start somewhere and grow it. I think that’s a good line to take.
Also, I get a little worried when we start saying, “tithe and God will bless you.” It can tend to sound a lot more like we’re trying to manipulate God than give because it’s his to begin with. I’m still learning, but I think we’re called to give. However, I don’t think God promised me that if I give he’ll magically give me checks in the mail. Sometimes that may happen, but I give because he’s God, not because of what I get.
Again, it’s tough because these are real issues that are much easier to talk about in an abstract way. But when we start talking about it, we have to remember that it’s personal – with real lives.
Good conversation … it’s interesting to hear people’s thoughts.
Esther is the only one (and Ryan agreed and so do I) that accurately calls out that 10% tithing is an Old Testament system. And since we are no longer under the OT Law we are not required to follow it anymore.
When you do as Esther suggests and study scripture you will see that under the Old Testament system, tithing was good news to the poor. However, in our day, mandatory tithing imposed in an unbiblical manner by local churches equals oppression to the poor.
While tithing IS biblical, it is NOT Christian. The tithe belongs to ancient Israel. It was basically their income tax. Never do you find first-century Christians tithing in the New Testament.
The word tithe simply means the tenth part. The Lord required three types of tithes for Israel as part of their tax system.
1. Of the produce of the land to support the Levites who had no inheritance in Canaan. (Lev. 27:30-33; Numbers 18:21-31)
2. Of the produce of the land to sponsor religious festivals in Jerusalem. (If the produce was too burdensome for a family to carry to Jerusalem, they could convert their produce into money). (Det. 14:22-27)
3. Of the product of the land collected every third year for the local Levites, orphans, strangers, and widows. (Det. 14:28-29, 26:12-13)
This was the biblical tithe. Do the math and you will see that God commanded Israel to give 23.3% of their income every year. Not 10%! (20 percent yearly and 10 percent every three years equals 23.3 percent per year). Its funny how the modern day church has distorted this old law and made another man made law to govern their cash flow in the church.
Any Christian should follow the New Testament guidelines to giving as taught in 2 Corinthians 8:1-4 and 9:6-7. Where you “sow’ is between you and God.
Seaton is dead-on, and the judgmental assumptions about Anon’s family’s situations in the comments are kindof unbelievable.
Anon, I stopped tithing to my church when my church started wasting money on frivolous things and giving it to the poor instead. The latter seemed much more like a correct response to Jesus’ commands than paying for things the church wants, but does not need. In your situation, I just don’t believe that 10% of your income is what God requires of you at this stage. Take care of your family finances, give what you can, when you can, and down the road when you have more, give generously as the God of abundance gives to us. It’s about your heart, not a dollar amount.
I totally feel you on this one – we’ve been there more times than I’d like to admit! We had to cut back on things that weren’t as important (cable, internet, eating out, starbucks, etc)… but I think the best thing we did was go to the “envelope system”.
Instead of using your account, pull it all out in cash. Divide it up into envelopes marked “tithe”, “utilies”, “gas”, “groceries”, “mortgage/rent”, etc. To be honest, our checking account allows us free cashier checks, so we paid all our bills that way. This way, it was obvious what we had left.
I’d encourage looking into working with a good financial planner. Most churches have resources like “Good Sense” which are really great!
Keep tithing. It’s not about us (even though it’s really tough when ends aren’t meeting) but it’s about God. He’s really just letting us keep 90% of it.
If they want more practical resources, Anne, you can send them my email address. Brian, my husband, is a financial planner and can help anyone get their hands on resources free of cost.
Like I said, we’ve been there (and are still feeling aftershocks from our last time) and really have a heart for people who struggle in this area.
Anonymous – I wish I knew what to tell you. But I don’t. I am not a theologian so I can’t dispute anything either “side” said above.
We just calculated our medical debt and it’s over 5500 bucks. And this is down 7k from a couple of years ago when it was over 12k.
We just turned off our internet today actually, and we also have no phone, and the $8/month cable plan (no DVR or anything either). My husband has normally worked 2 jobs and I have always picked up freelance on the side to make ends meet.
We make a LOT of pasta because it’s cheap and gives you tons of leftovers. :) That helps…
I feel your pain though. If we had something left to sacrifice we would in a heart beat. Even doing little things like using windows instead of lights, keeping the air off as much as possible and doing all laundry/dishes, etc. in cold water help lower the bills.
Praying for you.
i believe that tithing is a commandment, not an option. so it’s something you have to do regardless of circumstances. God doesn’t need our money, but needs our obedience.
and it’s important to remember that we’re not giving our tithe to the “church” so the staff can have cool gadgets and hip clothes. we’re giving it to God. it’s His all ready, we’re just giving it back to Him.
I believe giving is intensely personal.
Isn’t a major theme in the Bible that God is more concerned with what is in our hearts rather than on our outward actions. He is more concerned with HOW I give rather than WHAT I give.
I studied some scripture in 2 corinthians a while back on this subject.
These were just a few of my notes, things I read during that time. I can’t remember where it all came from.
1 corinthians 8-9
How do I decide how much to give? From these scriptures I see that:
1. Each person should follow through on previous promises. (8:10,11)
2. Each person should give as much as she is able. (8:12)
3. Each person must make up her own mind how much to give. (9:7)
4. Each person should give in proportion to what God has given her. (9:10)
9:7 Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.
Jesus never taught us to tithe. Shame on the church that will take your money and abuse it in such a profane way, while you can’t pay your bills. Jesus did teach us to give, but not to tithe. I say don’t worry about it. Take care of your bills. There will come a time when you will have more to give, but when that time comes, I would take another look at what your church would do with the money, vs. other ways that it may be put to better use.
wow, i am amazed at how personal this has become, and i wonder if we have lost sight of … well, God’s heart. some people seem super-convicted about tithing being a straight-up command, and some seem super-convicted that it’s just antiquated. either way, all i know is that i love Romans 14 … and we should all live by our own convictions.
anonymous, remember that even your righteous deeds are as “filthy rags” before God … that is why He is rich in mercy, and all you have spiritually and physically and financially is His gracious gift. all He asks is for your trust … and trust means action (obedience). and, like i said before, that only comes from a heart that loves God.
so, i’m thinking that you are the only one who is going to give an account of your life before God. and i’m thinking that you have to live in faith by your own convictions. if that means 0% to the church, then that’s what it means. if it means a small percentage or flat amount from the first, then that’s what it means. if it means all that is left over, then that’s what it means. but what MATTERS MOST is your heart before God. and i pray that it is moldable, teachable, full of faith, full of trust, full of love, full of joy, always praying, and totally surrendered and obedient.
the Lord is most concerned with conforming you to the nature of Christ. i believe that He is also concerned with your physical and financial well-being (He is the maker and sustainer of all life), and your bank account IS His business, but i really believe that He wants to use it for greater, spiritual, ETERNAL purposes … and that is definitely something to consider through all this.
I can sense the anxiety you are feeling. There is something naturally wrong with the tithe concept but you can’t quite put your finger on it. I would rather lose my salary and church building than to put such a burden on you. Keep the money, feed your family, pay your debts. God isn’t going to hit you over the head if you don’t tithe. The burden should be on me and the believers in the congregation. We say we care for the poor and can’t even help our own. If the church truly “loved one another” you never would have had to ask the question. The question just reveals the sad financial state we as believers are in because we violate basic financial principles and are in bondage ourselves. For me it’s hard to give to a building while my friend is going hungry.
Amen for Steven’s comment…
Tithing is a legalism taught that supports the church industry and is easy and should be expected of middle-class and above people. BUT…really, if you are poor, I am not sure tithing is what is required of you and is not a dogma in the Bible. And, first fruits includes more than money…how about time, and your talents? Paying debts weighs higher. It is a good testimony and is what God would want you to do with your money. He does not need your money. He wants your heart. The money goes with that, but so does everything else about our lives.
As far as testing God goes, can’t you just use the wet towel/dry ground/dry towel/wet ground method and get more consistent results? (grin)
Seaton! You heretic you! Oh wait, sorry wrong word. You communist you! (grin)
Oh, and for all you New Testament Law Enforcement Agents, where are all the gouged out eyeball and cut off hand obedient Christians attending church these days? I can’t seem to locate these Red Letter obedient ones anywhere…(grin)
Zelig, y’all can’t put up or shut up. He is properly anonymous. Don’t y’all feel better now? (grin)
Anne Jackson, are they not paying you guys enough at LC? Do I have to do some more email smacking around over there? Cause I will! Just ask Cindy Beall! (grin)
I was so encouraged reading all the comments to see how many people really understand that tithing is not for today and to see how many folks extended grace and encouragement to anonymous. Sometimes I start to get a bit discouraged about the body of Christ in all their formulaic methods. Then I come across grace-filled folks commenting on and understanding that the law has TRULY been done away with, and my heart is flooded with joy.
Anonymous, I’m sorry you’re in the situation you’re in. The sad part is that if the body of Christ were being the body of Christ, I think you would be receiving help from your church, and not being told to tithe and that God will take care of you from there. I cannot judge your church, of course, as I don’t know them and it’s not my place to judge even if I did. I will just say, though, that it’s a really convenient way to dismiss your problems by being told, “Do this (tithe), and God will take care of you.” We are the body of Christ. Where is the book of Acts being lived out in your local body, where all the needs of the believers were met by one another? I feel sad for your situation and will pray for you. Feel free to contact me anytime.
This is not my money. I know I worked for it but it isn’t mine. It is the Lord. So when I tithe, I am giving back 10% of what’s already His. But I am desperate to hear if He needs me to do something with the other 90% because that 90% is not mine either but his.
In everything, the Lord is my inheritance and my portion. Especially money. Especially time.
He promised me. It is in His word.
If He needed me to take my paycheck and give it to somebody else, then in essence, I am simply running His money to somebody who might need it. But because He is my portion, He will provide for what I need at the right exact time.
Why should I ever worry about what tomorrow will bring. Why should I ever worry about bills being due? God knows what I owe and He knows my desire to be a good steward and pay my bills. God is my shelter (says so in the Bible). God will provide (says so in the Bible).
“And we would sell our cars if we weren’t upside down in them.”
this is the only comment that really provides ANY factual insight to the problem. everything else is almost specualtion at this point because ‘not a lot’ and ‘fair’ and ‘barely’ means different things to different people. After counseling hundreds of young couples in the financial toilet before they’re 30 I’ve learned that absolutely all of them don’t divulge until they trust.
so – instead of theology – let’s try this.
(1)call your frikken CC companies and bargain with them on interest rates, payouts, etc. we do it all the time and it works
(2) pls find a very wise person in your church, or another church – and lay it all out to them – they can help you
(3)you must get over ‘they have this’ and ‘they have that’ – this is actually the real root of the problem but ’nuff said bout that
(4) a wise financial person can get your upside down situation with your cars fixed (see 2)- but they must be wise and astute – some of those people w/ 40-70k SUV’s may be your best advisors – but you may also be surprised how many of them are in debt up to their necks and are financially bankrupt
(5) pray, pray, pray – give it ALL to Him, and He will be faithful – none of it is yours anyway –
(6) don’t go to CCC – it’s usually a rip-off and very, very expensive
(7) see 2
(8) see 2 – and let me add that God loving, God fearing wealthy people are your best source of financial advice – God allowed them to get rich because they were excellent stewards of His kindom’s resources – God also allows satan followers to get rich, so be cautious and prudent
Hi all..I quit tithing, after living such a guilt ridden mindset for so long. My time is given to the body, to whomever. I am in incredible debt from my non Christian years. When we go to shake the person’s hand in church, spend more time with them. It is so surprising the people who need the most help are sitting next to us. I will thith someday
Tithing is a very important part of the Christian life. Having said that, it is a case of learning what God’s priorities are. Scripture says that if a man does not provide for his own, he is worse than an infidel. Here we may see that we are between a rock and a hard place. Nowhere in the new testament under the New Covenant does it say that we are to tithe. It does say to give as the Lord prospers. Ultimately, the issue is between you and God.
Providing for your family without going into debt is far more important than the “law” of tithing. The New Covenant is a covenant of grace, not law. The book of Proverbs is full of verses urging a person to get out of debt because it makes you a slave to someone you owe. Seek God’s leading in this and give as He has prospered you…whether it be $1.00 or $100.00. Be a slave to no one, not even the church.
I think that tithing is a heart issue. You can go right back to Genesis and see this in the story of Cain and Abel. God accepted e Abel’s sacrifice because he gave the best of what he had. He gave sacrificially “off the top,” if you will. That’s what God wants from us. 10% is a guide and a good goal.
I think when we tithe, if we’re giving to our local church or somewhere else, we should consider it as something we’re giving back to God and no one else. Then, we can avoid judging how the church leaders choose to spend their money. It’s their choice how they spend, and we don’t know everything about how they acquire what they have (it may have been given to them or saved for a very long time, etc.).
When we tithe, I believe it’s for our benefit. I think God set it up to help us to see where our faith lies and Who we believe in. Are we trusting God or money? I think a balanced view is needed. If we are in debt, God doesn’t want that either. Talk to God, get out of debt, and start working toward the goal of 10%. Talk to God, be sure of your heart on the matter. Start at 5% and commit to that. Get finances in order, and start adding 1% until you reach the goal. I think God honors that if your heart is in the right place. Be asking Him to provide for what you need, and don’t be jealous of others or compare your life to others. There’s always somebody who has more and somebody who has less. Ask God for wisdom in managing your finances wisely, if another source of income needs to be obtained, or if there are other creative ideas He might give you to earn money or obtain the things you need in life. Again, if you have the goal in mind of eventually reaching the 10% mark, I think that honors God.
If God blesses you a little….give a little.
If God blesses you a lot….give a lot.
If God doesn’t bless you at all…give nothing.
The account of a very poor widow in the New Testament comes to mind….Mark 12:41-43 and again in Luke 21:1-5
The poor widow, giving, even in her poverty was a teaching moment to the disciples. It is actually recored in two of the Gospels.
There are still lessons to be learned from this poor widow by those who call themselves disciples of Jesus.
First of all, this is a GREAT question and I admire you for being brave enough to ask it. Far too many people are not willing to ask this and feel that God will be upset with them for asking such a question. I was in full time ministry for several years and our emergency fund was wiped out in getting out of a horrible ministry situation. We incurred debt, medical bills and so forth. We did not have magical checks show up even though we tithed, but we did have magical bills appear almost every week (yes, unexpected bills that we were not aware of). My wife did some research and came across this site: http://Shouldthechurchteachtithing.com. I am not going to tell you what to do or even give the “churchy” spin of just trust God and smile while it feels like you are on the Titanic. I really feel for you and understand what you are going through. This is a personal decision that you get to make. Just remember that God’s love for you is not dependent upon your actions, it is dependent upon His grace.
Anonymous-My heart reaches out to you because we have been in your shoes. We are actually just coming out of a month that was similar to your PB&J story. We are working on getting out of debt, but sometimes there’s just more expenses that you plan for. It’s hard to do everything you can financially, but it just doesn’t seem like it’s enough. I have agonized, stressed, cried, and punched the wall (literally) none of that stuff works. :)
The thing that I would like you to remember is that God does care about you and will always give us what we NEED, not necessarily what we want. Use this time to strengthen your prayer life and get closer to Him. I have a feeling that after seeking Him with all of your heart, you will find more answers than any one person on this blog could ever give you. Answers may not come during your desired time frame, but I am 100% sure that God will give you all the wisdom you need to make the decisions that He wants you to make. Nothing is too small for Him to handle!
For us, we are learning to depend on God for every little thing. We don’t have a lot, but we have peace in our lives because God is helping us make the decisions. Satan can use your money stresses to blind you to what God could do in and through you. :)
i’m so glad that john said this:
“Just remember that God’s love for you is not dependent upon your actions, it is dependent upon His grace.”
hallelujah …
Hey Anne, long time since I posted probably!
On the tithing thing, in this situation, I think the circumstances are hard. The person could be tithing to a broke church that can barely afford rent and then they would feel more justified. Personally, I feel that if you are still in debt, aren’t making the monthly strokes and are thinking of cutting the tithe, then maybe it’s time to earn more. Better job, 2nd job… I dunno. So many people settle in their professions and I never understand why people don’t just aspire to do more.
But, sometimes life is just rough on us, so I’d say to pray and go back to the drawing board.
Dear Anonymous,
It’s sounds as though you are in need of more than advice and we would love to help you.
I have a garage full of things that we were
considering donating but instead I think I
would rather have a garage sale for you and your family to help you through this time.
Anyone else who’d like to donate items is more than welcome.
When I go through times of need (physical, spiritual or material) God does provide- sometimes in the most mysterious ways but mostly through my loving Christian brothers and sisters.
Let me know how you feel about this and if you’d like to stay anonymous that is just fine – we’ll figure out the details later. I can have the sale the weekend of May 17th.
Also I have four children of various ages 3 girls and a boy and if you would like to come look through any clothes or any of the items before the sale you are certainly most welcome.
I live in Midwest City,OK.
Love,
Your sister in Christ Jesus
Shauna
1. Why 10%? Why does everyone get stuck on 10%? Its not Biblical.
2. I think the point is to give cheerfully as you are able. Should you tithe instead of buying a new TV? Yes. Should you put your tithe on a credit card? No. Should you let your children go without food to tithe? No. Should you bounce a check to your church to tithe? No. If you are able should you give more than 10%? Absolutely.
3. Be very weary of approaching the health and wealth Gospel. God blesses as he sees fit. God does not give you more money because you are good with your finances. Now you may find that once you break the bonds of materialism then you find more money because you don’t want as much stuff. But we must tread very lightly as we approach the realm of health and wealth.
Just some thoughts.
Mike
It’s hard bring in a situation like this, I know I’ve been there. My dad always says he thinks it is a good idea that people know what it is like to be hungry. he means very hungry, the kind of hungry where you’ve not eaten in three days and you’re not even sure when the next meal will come from, he is right I know I’ve been there before as well.
My point is this: I know God is my provider – even when I have not been faithful, He is. I’ve struggled in tithing here and there and yes we should support our local church but I also found myself tithing into areas that seems more reflective of the great commission if my church was lacking.
I believe the heart is the issue that God wants to see our love for his kingdom if we seek that He will always bless us if our hearts and actions line up. But sometime it seems like we do it all right and still… patients is needed.
So I was reminded of 1 Timothy 5:8 “Now if anyone does not provide for his own relatives and especially for his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.”…This is a battle for my husband because he actually does not “provide” for our household anymore with money, obviously he provides in other ways…as we have sold everything and live on support these days…and I don’t know if that verse could be cross referenced and twisted and turned around, but I do know that now that Daniel and I are out of debt we are free to give to whomever God leads us to give towards. We don’t always understand the whole tithe thing because like I said, we live on support and so, do we turn around and send back the money that the churches who are sponsoring us and sent a check back to them so to “tithe”? That kind of seems pointless. So we give to those in need whenever we are prompted. But I do know that once we got out of debt we were free. We ate mac-n-cheese and a whole lotta soup to get there and once we did-it was like the heavens opened up and we were/are able to give as little or as much as God calls us to. Not to say that we always get it right…because now (literally) we do live off of other peoples money we know and rely on God – in Faith for every dollar and know that in a heartbeat we could be sent home (back to America). So all that to say that God is so Faithful. He isn’t Faithful because we give..He is Faithful always. In spite of our best and worst efforts.
i love how people just throw away the OT because (in their best whiny voice) it’s just too hard!!!
so we don’t reap what we sow? and Jesus’ birth, death, and raising from the dead were not foretold in the OT?
anne- let’s have a blog on what we want to edit out of the Bible ’cause it’s just too hard to do!
Reading through the original post and comments the following words of Jesus came to mind:
“If you give to others, you will be given a full amount in return. It will be packed down, shaken together, and spilling over into your lap. The way you treat others is the way you will be treated.” Luke 6:38 (CEV)
In the message this past Sunday God talked about seeking first His kingdom and when we do he will add the daily needs on to our lives. Personally this is where I’m at right now, digging into the question of how, on a daily basis, to seek the kingdom of God first and then fully trust Him to provide my needs, like paying my bills.
Also please don’t think I’m advocating a frivolous lifestyle with my comments. We have to be wise with our money, and yes I’ve made poor financial spending choices in the past but I do know Jesus is my savior, even today, and with the right heart attitude will help me from the financial pit I’m in.
Great post Anne, keep up the great work.
anonymous,
How can we help you get out of your past debts so that tithing is no longer an issue? John 21:15-17; Matthew 25:34-40; 1 John 3:17-18; Romans 13:8 clearly convinces me that your problem isn’t just your problem… it’s OUR problem. The “Church” aka body of Christ is responsible to help you in this matter. And to be honest, the tithe was created by God for you. 2 Corinthians 8:13,14; Deuteronomy 14:22-29. If you are willing, so I am.
anom checked out at the ‘responsibility’ word
there, I said it -oops, wrong blog day
Actually, Tony, I’ve been here the whole time.
I just can’t get over why people make assumptions. Let me answer your questions.
1)We don’t have an interest rate over 9% (some are 4% some are 0%) because we did this a few years ago.
(2) We have also done this – twice.
(3) I just wish the church would be the church-instead of buying all they wanted until more of them had need they actually did what the bible says.
(4) Our financial advisors have said we just need to pay down our cars. We are that upside down in them
To Shauna and Elisha. I cannot tell you how much your willingness to help encourages me. Although I would feel completely unfair when there are others who are losing their homes and can’t feed their children, well, we are not that bad off if we look at it like that. Our groceries may not be very much or any extra, but at least we have food. I pray you will use what you might have helped us with and help someone even worse off.
But thank you. You are the church in action and as I feel terrible reading some of the very “trite” and “Christianese” answers I have heard my whole life through most of this post, you are Jesus to me. Grace, love, and trust.
Anonymous,
Thank you for your words. My family as been where you are right now. We are now completely debt-free. But, it all started with a question I asked God. Father, how can I give to you & be a good steward to those we are in debt and ultimately get out of debt? And that question changed our life. LOL, and no I didn’t start a business or use some worldly scam to do it. I did it solely through the word of God.
I respect your decision in regards to us not helping you financially although we are willing. However, if you want to know what God’s answer to us was, please feel free to email me. ([email protected]) I’m not ashamed or embarrassed to share His words with you. The Bible is clear, “You Shall Know the Truth, and the Truth Will Make You Free.”
Either way, I appreciate you having the heart to ask, to reach out to others for help, and to go through all the responses you’ve gone through. May God give you what you have so richly deserved… not by your worthiness, but simply by your Belief & Faith in Him.
I must say I have been humbled reading your responses…giving advice and even offering to help a random person out financially.
Someone on our staff came in and shared his story and heart today and I am just blown away. So thank you guys so much.
As I said in my last comment, I really hope my words have not sounded trite; my comment was carefully worded – it is my testimony, my personal experience of what God said to me and how he guided me through my personal financial crises on more than one occasion. I was hoping it would be an encouragement – please forgive me if it has offended as that is the last thing I would ever want. Maybe God will take you through a different path than the one he took me on, but I am soooo grateful that he did rescue me, my wife and my family from my self-inflicted problems. My testimony is exciting because God did a miracle, and I am excited to pass the story on – I am really sorry if it came across as heavy handed.
My story: I clearly heard God say to me “you tithe and I’ll provide” when I was nineteen. I can remember the time and the place and the colour of the flowers along the roadside – it was a revelation, God’s clear Word to me. And as long as I have been obedient to that promise, he has been a faithful, faithful provider, and steered me through some very difficult times to the place where we are free to be the people he created us to be, overseas in North Africa, leading worship and serving the poor.
It is the greatest privilege to be in the centre of his will and I do not take the responsibility lightly, however, it would not be possible if we had not been obedient to his command to us to tithe. It really has been the key to our financial liberation.
Easy: Take care of your family/debt situation first.
I think you’re justified because you’re one of those Scripture defines as being in need. When’s the last time the church offered to help you financially? I can write a whole article on why the church isn’t about this anymore, but I digress…
That said; you must remember that it all belongs to God. Any income you earn is His, and God loves a cheerful giver. When you start to realize that giving money is part of your worship life, and kingdom of God mandate, and the great things that God can do in the world with the church’s resources – then the joy will come.
D Rho, much as I do like to stir y’all up, I can’t resist saying, who said the “church” wasn’t about “this” anymore? I’m sure if the present tenants can’t do the job right, the landlord will get some that can. (grin)
NOt sure if anyone will read this at this point but my husband and I were in similar financial straits a few years back. We prayed hard, sought godly counsel and while living frugally we did not tithe monetarily but worked to pay off as much debt as possible until we were at a stable point where we were eating, paying our standard living expenses,etc and then began to tithe. That took about 18 months. During that process we had accountability, we took a Christian financial planning class through church and were certainly tithing our time. It was a tough decision but a heart issue I believe. The Lord has honored it and we have continued to work hard to pay off debt and increase our giving since then. So the tithe issue as with most issues is one of the heart, between you and the Almighty. So ask Him and then go with what HE says:) Forget the condemnation and guilt. Walk in the freedom He offers even in this issue.
I agree with you erika. Do you know what I find missing the most from people who consider themselves Christians? Love, Grace & Mercy. These are the founding pillars of our ability to have an eternal life with God. How were we able to receive these things? God gave. We need to give… sometimes corporately… but, mostly personally… to others in need, like our neighbors… like anonymous. Should we give him only 10% of what he needs? Would God be happy with us for that? Or should those around him supply him with all his needs as he’s willing to ask for?
This verse is so easily forgotten, “Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, “Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. ~ James 2:15-17
There is no way I could have read all these comments but…
-I feel people that to say you are simply supposed to tithe because the bible says so aren’t showing empathy for real life problems. The problem is the culture including the culture of the people that say it must be 10%.
– If I have to pay for something that will determine the well being or protection of my family(say paying for medication if my kid had a disease) then I would do that over tithing no questions asked. And as if its not obvious I’m proud to say it. People that act like they know everything that is best all the time are not being human. Which is sad for them. For all we know a person who can’t tithe might be leading people to Christ everyday. People focus on the money too much.
– Also I want to make clear that it is a fallacy to say a tithe has to be 10% and that tithe has to go to a specific church for there purposes. There is no reason to assume just because the bible says that God will use your tithe faithfully that you shouldn’t keep an eye on how its used.
Many say 10% is what we should do when they know full well we are required to give alot more, our whole life. Thats why its says “they shared and had everything in common”. 10% requirement is legalistic and limits people to what they can do holistically. Give to ceasers what is ceasers and Gods what is Gods(everything is Gods).
Being obedient to God never leaves us disappointed. Yes, perhaps in the world’s eyes we do not have the “stuff” but we are honoring the Lord. I think the heart of the matter is – do you really trust God to provide for you, even when you cannot see it? And He does not ask us to give when our church looks like it needs it, but to give. If you are not sure about where the money in your church is going, you should talk with a pastor about it. They would be able to show you the budget.
Also, if you are not behind how the church spends money and how they live essentially, why are you going to church there?
Anonymous: How much do you need to spend on groceries? Do you have a WalMart near you? I will send you a WalMart gift card for $100.00 tomorrow. I know that would help you. Now, the challenge is for us to hook up in such a way that I know you are YOU and this is privately handled. Any ideas?
Heidi Reed
of http://www.candidchatter.wordpress.com
A Christian with a heart for you and your situation who IS willing to put her $$ where her mouth is. Tithing is of the Old Law. It is my belief that we are to help our “brothers” first. So “brother”, get in touch, I promise that I WILL NOT Christianese you to death.
Oh, hey, I just noticed 2 other people offered to help you too. Maybe the three of us should get “together” on this one. Bet we could feed your family for a couple of weeks!!
HR
What an interesting string. Lots of lectures, very little help. I guess it feels better to be right than it does to lend a hand.
[begin sarcasm]
Hey Anne – this whole “Compassion” thing – sponsor people in need, and all that. Maybe we’re going about it the the wrong way… we should teach their parents to tithe, then God will bless them, and we won’t have to sponsor them anymore…
[end sarcasm]
Anon – we’ve been there. I’ve gone without food so my kids could eat. I felt like a complete loser because I wasn’t taking care of my family.
It sucked. Real bad.
I reached out to some friends, and they helped us. Repeatedly. Now we look for ways to help others. Not just Christians, either.
But they didn’t just give me a fish; they taught me to fish. Some gave money, others gave part time work, others helped us get a handle on managing our money, etc.
We don’t have much left over, but I’d be glad to send you a Wal-Mart card to help with groceries or whatever. My email is [email protected].
Re: Big TV churches…
While working in the church lending business for 8 years (I’m not in that industry anymore), I learned a few things.
The typical 1,000 seat church building (in my experience) costs somewhere between 5 and 10 million (all-in) to build. That’s a broad range, I know, forgive me for that. It’s a big country. Stuff costs more in some places than others.
Regardless, every million bucks a church borrows results in approximately $7,000 a month (give or take) in mortgage payments, so that results in a range of around $35,000 to $70,000 the church sends the bank every month (420k to 840k annually).
Generally, churches spend 30%-40% of their income on staff, another 30%-40% more on debt, and the rest on services, utilities, cutting the grass, whatever.
So, all that to say… next time you wonder why your church’s “benevolence” line item in the budget (if you can find it) is so small, skip down to the “interest” and “salaries, wages, and benefits” line items, and that may give you a clue.
It’s possible that they’re just as strapped for cash as you are.
TG
ok, i’m no expert but being a fellow in debt and poor choice maker i will chime in.
i do not want to discuss whether tithing is biblical, that horse has been beat to death.
i do want to mention two things. 1. Personal Responsibility (which it seems you are getting a grasp on). Get out of debt! Save money! Look for a better job! God does bless us but he also give us freedom to be intelligent hard working people. (this is an encouragement not a knock).
2. Pray about the church you are at, and make sure this is where God wants you. Does the church need money to function? Yes. However, MANY churches in North America are blowing it and no one is holding them accountable. Ex. I have a friend who is on staff at a church, she is an assistant to a pastor, when she took the position she was given a church phone and laptop, not too bad right? It was an Iphone and a Macbook! Is this the best way to invest people’s hard earned money to further God’s Kingdom? Is that necessary? Would something cheaper accomplish the goal just as well?
These are important questions that are OK to ask, you have choices!
May God continue to show you the way!
tony g
I must say one of the things I did like about my former church was that they moved into their 5000 seat worship center with no debt at all.
I really admired that.
Also my current church just acquired a building (aka debt), but kept costs down in the name of having it paid off in under 3 years. I can’t remember the last time I heard of someone having a 3 year mortgage! *lol*
Mike
Hey Mike. That’s great; I’m glad to hear it. Think about all the $$$ they have available in the budget now… they can change the lives of more people in the community… not just the bank’s shareholders.
Keep in mind that I made a living off the church lending industry for a long time, so I’m throwing rocks from my glass house to some degree. Although I guess that’s why I left that business…
Life seemed easier for me when I tithed, than when I didn’t.
Please don’t look at church staff people as people who have large disposable incomes. As a church staff spouse, and former church staff person, let me tell you, the majority of us don’t make a lot of money. Some do, most don’t.
My husband and I have always marvelled at how God has seemed to ‘honor’ our sacrifice of working for less money at a church. People have often given us gift cards for restaurants, Christian handshakes, and we get great deals.
We shop consignment stores for our kids. We pay less for our kids ‘designer’ clothing, than if we bought them at Wal-Mart. My husband frequents consignment shops for his clothes and shoes.
Last month, my husband scored $800 worth of clothes for $60 at Dillard’s sales racks. He got a $90 shirt for $8!! And that was thanks to a senior pastor friend who told us about a great deal he got that week at Dillards.
I’m not condemning where you are. I’ve been there. Believe me, I’ve been there. I’m praying for you to find the answers and the peace you need.
anonymous, i wish i could contact you directly. i’d love to help you with what i am able to. if you’d like to, email me at [email protected] – thanks!
I have preached since I was a teenager and pastored my first church at 18. (That was decades ago, trust me.) Here’s what I think: it is the responsibility of the church to respond to this family’s need, not vice versa.
I would strongly urge people to look again at the story of the Church in Laodocea regarding the accumulation of wealth and the lack of spiritual attentiveness. Christian spirituality requires us to take care of the poor among us (including within the church). See the book of James.
Kind Regards,
Stephen York
United Methodist Church
Stonington, Maine 04681
I hope this doesn’t sound harsh, because I really feel for your situation. But here are the facts. The Bible commands us NOT to go into debt. The borrow is slave to the lender…
So when you went into debt to begin with, you set yourself up for a tough situation in the future.
Now you’re asking whether you should stop giving to God so you can manage that debt that never should’ve been there in the first place. That’s like asking whether you should abort a baby that you conceived outside of wedlock – it’s the wrong way to manage a tough situation. (Okay, that’s really an EXTREME example, I know, but work with me here.)
What God has shown me is that He is so much bigger than numbers. In my family, when we’ve tithed consistently, it has AMAZED us how God has caused the numbers to not quite add up in our favor.
Now is not the time to stop giving. Even if God doesn’t bless you financially like you’re hoping, He has asked you to give everything you have. He has no obligation to make you rich, but he does promise to bless you like crazy.
So keep giving. Keep trusting. He doesn’t ask for everything you have “if” it works for you.
Your blog is really nice to read and i wish there was more like this around. Thank you