Today’s post is from my friend Crystal Renaud. She is a strong woman in ministry (which you’ll be able to tell from this post!) and it has been really cool to see her grow and mature since the first time I met her (as a wee-barely-out-of-high-school-student). This is her second time guest blogging here. (Read her first guest post here).
======
Crystal writes:
My post today reflects my personal opinion and in no way reflects my employer or any particular church or denomination.
Without further ado, here it be.
The Good Ole Boys Club
Confession: I am a bit of a feminist.
Don’t get me wrong, I am not an extremist or going to lead a new suffragette movement, but I definitely have opinions when it comes to the power of women and dare I say it, their power in The Church.
I have coined the phrase, ?Good Ole Boys Club? to refer to male leadership in The Church. As a woman, you can imagine this is a very difficult club to join. There?s a certain lacking anatomy that is against us. And because of this, being a woman in ministry is a lonely existence. These women are often unfairly silenced, their pay is considerably lower than their male counterparts and their hiring in these positions comes few and far between.
How do I know this? Because I am one of them.
Without a doubt, there are women all over this very blogsphere called to lead, and who are strong and equipped to do so. But in this male-dominated field, they are simply not accepted. You know who you are.
Now, I am not a believer in women as senior pastors – however women do have a ton more to offer The Church and even to the men they are following than given the opportunity to prove.
All over the Bible, there were women like Deborah (Judges), Esther, Martha and Phoebe (Romans) who were all leaders in their own right (and even so over men). Not to mention the various other seemingly nameless deaconesses and prophetesses, oh and Christ Himself appearing to women first to spread the news that He had Risen. Somehow these men were not afraid of women having a say and a platform to lead from.
I am not going to claim myself a theologian; you can throw at me all your Timothy & Titus descriptions of an elder all day long, but that still doesn?t explain the inequality among men & women in ministry today.
So tell me, in a country where women have overcome great oppression, have reached the top in business, juggle full-time jobs and/or full-time homes, why is ministry leadership still a clubhouse with a wooden sign saying ?No Girls Allowed??
Comments
48 responses to “Guest Blogger: No Girls Allowed?”
Crystal, how do you feel silenced? I know the ‘net is a tricky place to bare all, and you may not want to say too much, but maybe you can just give us a few examples.
Years ago, some guy in the church called me a feminist. Personally, I don’t really care for that label at all; I just want to be a Christian who happens to be female.
Gotta go – toddler crying – back later to follow conversation
I think that in some cases – and I am not making blanket judgments here because I have been supported by more men than not – there can be a pride issue. I’ve been with some male leaders who seemed very threatened by female leadership because that was “their zone” and it made them feel very special. I have a great male friend who told me, “Jan, when you do your job you force people to examine their own prejudice and that is never fun.” I think that we need to examine this issue in light of the whole of scripture – we send women all over the world to serve in these positions as missionaries and applaud them for it, then say, “not in my church!”. There is a deeper issue here at work that we are ignoring. A great book on this is “Beyond Sex Roles” by Gilbert Bilezekian, a very conservative theologian who also holds an egalitarian view of women in ministry. I just wrote a post on my feelings as a woman in ministry this past week. I’d love for ya’ll to hop on over and read it at: http://aworshipfulheart.typepad.com/a_worshipful_heart/2008/04/thoughts-on-bei.html
I think that unless the church culture changes in this regard we will be unable to reach the next generation for Christ because they WILL judge us (and already have) as sexist. Sad.
Over the last several weeks I have been processing this issue myself. I am the Executive Director for a large church in Nashville and while I feel very empowered in my role at Cross Point, I hit walls when I try to engage with male Executive Pastors/Directors from other churches. Sometimes I think they just don’t know how to react or engage with a female in the role rather than that they don’t respect me in it. The issue is definitely coming to the surface more and I think we as women in leadership need to be wise in how we respond to and lead in this. We have a tremendous opportunity to help make a positive turn in regard to gender issues in the church – I pray we will use our influence wisely.
Here are a couple of posts that I have written about this:
http://jcatron.wordpress.com/wp-admin/post.php?action=edit&post=158
http://withoutwax.tv/2008/04/10/guest-blogger-jenni-catron/
i’ve felt this way for a really stinkin’ long time. but i’ll tell you, it has a lot to do with the culture of the organization or “church.” all of my former church experiences have echoed your disgust and irritation with this very obvious glass ceiling in the church workplace. there were days when i expected to walk into the pastor’s office and find all the men smoking cigars and drinking brandy … chumming it up and petting each other’s egos. but i’m in a completely different culture now and it’s almost the opposite. the women have way larger (you know what) than the men and the men know that. it’s an equal playing field at the top too. i can’t tell you how refreshing it is not to have to prove that i’m just as capable (if not more) than my male counterparts. we actually get (do i dare say) collaboration because of the equality.
there’s hope. maybe not for most church cultures, but there are options.
I really appreciate the honesty and openness of this post. It is extremely beneficial for me as a male to hear these thoughts. Personally, I believe the issue of comparable worth is another one of those integrity issues that the church SHOULD be leading society in yet I am afraid that it is only embarassing itself. We currently have no women on staff but have in the past and I don’t have the knowledge to speak about their pay. But if a women serves on staff she should be compensated the same as any male on staff in a comparable position. No questions. No theological debate. And yeah I would assume that once you appoint or hire a women on staff then are also saying to that person you are a part of the team and your input is valuable and expected.
I was glad to see the links from Jan and Jenni. I’ll be sure to read them. I hope we get to hear some response to Monica’s question from Crystal as well. As a male, sometimes leader, I always want to be open to listening to criticism. I just need some more specifics to think through given the broad variety of church situations out there.
Good question! I feel the same way. I am so blessed and honored to serve in a church that values and promotes women in leadership.
Theological debate aside… it wasn’t an easy process for our church when leadership dove into the subject (I refrain from saying “issue”) a number of years ago. While top leadership were very transparent that it wasn’t easy or unanimous… in the end they all supported the decision to crack the glass ceiling.
While our lead pastor and most of the Senior Leadership team is male… There is a female on the SLT and half our elders are currently women (please withhold gasps – Mosaic and Willow Creek have or have had female elders too – not saying that makes it right – just that there ARE other churches out there). Women also make up the slight majority of our staff team overall.
And it’s all good.
In fact for a while our elder’s team was one guy and two gals so it was a bit of a role-reversal in that he felt a bit left out because when the gals got together they technically were a quorum and could have made decisions without him – which of course they didn’t but they joked about it alot.
I work at Orchard Road Christian Center which was founded by Marilyn Hickey. She still preaches there but her daughter and son-in-law, Sarah and Reece, are now the head pastors. Sarah and Reece both preach about the same amount.
I never understood the squelching of women in leadership. It has always offended me when people speak down about women pastors and leaders. I guess it was just how I was raised.
Also I concur with other comments that suggest there is a cultural element involved. There are a number of denominations that firmly do not believe in female leadership in their North American context – but seem to have no issue with their single female missionaries being in those roles overseas – where they serve as defacto church planters and leaders. So it’s interesting to me that colonialism seems to override sexism in those situations.
Also learned that their is absolutely no posistion of leadership unavailable to women in the Salvation Army church.
granted a lot of churches do a poor job of trying to understand the Bibles mandate about women in church leadership, i think you are looking at culture more than the Bible. i’m not saying women don’t play a key role, but the Bible seems to be very strong in saying that elders (decision making leaders) are to be men. outside of that office, it should be fair game to both sexes.
Church has its own good things vs your secular organization, but people are still people, Christian or not..even in churches.
You’ll encounter discrimination, isolation, cliques, politics, emotional baggage, fear, dysfunction, conflicts, and other ugly things that you’d find anywhere else. These things exist in church whether we like it or not.
I came from a (Protestant) church that had a female senior/head pastor for a while and was (still is) very well respected even after she is semi-retired and serves on part-time basis.
Outside of what culture and the even the Bible dictate there is something that seems to go unmentioned.
When I look at my core team and how important it is for us to have a very open and intimate relationship, I realize that as a man (a married one at that) I could not have that type of relationship with a woman other than my own wife.
For what it’s worth
Tyler, I hear what you’re saying, but…
what to do when there are so few, willing men to step up to the elder-leader plate? it’s a problem in my local body.
(forgive baseball jargon. go yankees!)
i feel sorry for you – if you cannot have an intimate professional relationship with a woman on staff, well……….that says volumes about the big EGO word mentioned here numerous times
a professional relationship has very, very, very little in common with a wifey relationship – over the years i’ve had very professional intimate relationships with women at work and women on church staffs – no problem at all – I find it odd that you would consider a wife relationship anywhere near a professional relationship – but it does give insight into the male thought pattern for sure
unless you walk in their shoes, or at least try to by working with them – you’ll never know
possibly a different way of looking at, and please don’t think i’m judging you. i can see why you would be frustrated…but
1-are you looking in the right places?
there are a lot of churches that you will have a hard time finding a position in, but there are just as many that would not discriminate based on “a certain lack of anatomy”. so you can either decide to look for someplace that would work with you, or you could patiently and graciously work towards getting a church to understand they need to change. if you do it impatiently and with no grace and just demand they change, you would still not have what you wanted. i know in the church i attend, women actually have the majority in numbers in the church leadership.
2-are you looking at yourself?
is there a reason besides you being a female that is the behind the issue? are you what they are looking for? have you made yourself the most valuable resource they cannot do without? is your frustration with the issue (rather than your talent in leadership) all they can see?
Vince, I understand your comment and know first hand the challenges of these relationships. However, it is no reason to exclude an entire gender from leadership teams. Isn’t this the perfect time to embrace the struggle and the questions and BE THE CHURCH?! I think we can model loving and respectful male/female relationships for the world around us, and THAT will draw people to Jesus. (Jesus’ words that the world will know we are disciples by how we love one another is applicable here as well) I work on a senior leadership team with only two other men. A large portion of my ministry teams are men. We guard our hearts, our minds and our actions but we do love one another deeply and they are some of my best friends. We don’t run from the issue, we try to respond in a godly manner and we have many honest discussions about it and pray for one another’s spouses as well. Keeping men and women apart will not keep people from sinning. Loving one another respectfully will shine the light though! I am afraid we have “played defense” on this one too long and now may live in fear. We model the curse of sin, not the redemption of Jesus.
Crystal, thank you for being so brave to address this. Maybe part of the problem has to do with resistance to change. Most senior pastors grew up in a totally different world where almost every woman stayed at home and certainly didn’t lead in the church, except maybe in women’s ministry. It’s difficult to make a change like this, especially when you know you have people on your staff who will be very resistant.
Jan – I agree with you. On paper it works and should work. …no slave, free, male, female…’
but the reality I live in is that of a broken man. I think there are teams the can handle this. But I would have to say that I couldn’t.
But be clear it is not the fault of any potential females on my team…it’s mine.
yep
Vince, thanks for your honesty. These are the kinds of conversations we need to be having!
Monica (and Parke): out of respect and just to cover my own bum, i am not going to go into great details personally, but yes i do have examples. i’ve had various women address this issue with me and discuss they feel silent in planning, programming, church decisions, etc. if not silent, then they are simply ignored. opinions not taken for consideration, etc. then there’s also the way of taking “silent” as the sheer effort behind leadership to not hire women into roles of authority.
nate – i value your questions and are ones i have been asked and definitely asked myself when times got hard or seemed unfair. however, the questions i pose are not just coming from myself, but instead the various women i encounter who are in the very same position/feeling as me. we can’t all be in the wrong place.
oh and in response to Vince. Jan Owen took my response. well said, Jan. leadership isn’t leadership at all if it excludes a whole group of people instead of being examples of how to work together with integrity.
i like you crystal! i love that you speak your mind boldly. thanks for sharing your thoughts on such a controversial topic.
i believe my place is to shut-up, be barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen.
i’m so kidding… you know me so you know i’m more like “watch me roar!” and “get outta my way, i’m working here!”
but i DO believe that we were created to be man’s helper… so even though i’m better than him *wink*, we’re a team. God created me with my gifts and talents to further His church and reach the unreached. so that is what i’ll do, whether i get props or not for doing the work.
i have to say that the church i work in, though led by a male senior pastor, is pretty well evened out in leadership by both genders. i also know that’s RARE.
i don’t know what else to say. it seems it’s all been said.
this is absolutely my last comment, but I would just urge all of you, men and women alike, to examine your beliefs and attitudes in the light of all of scripture. Don’t go for the easy answer please. Ask “why”? And don’t – for the sake of the furtherance of the gospel – assume that everything you’ve been taught has been done so correctly. Examine the scriptures for yourself and know what passages and key words mean. (many of us have been taught “Extra-biblical” thoughts that are simply not in scripture) Dig deeper. Learn about the culture they were written in. Educate yourself a bit so that you are basing your opinion on the word of God, and not on your culture, how you grew up, or even what makes you comfortable. Check out your own motives, your own ideas and thoughts and ask yourself, “Why do I really feel this way?”. This journey for the church will take courage and a whole lotta love. Thanks for the dialogue.
I’m an outsider as far as working in a church, I’ve always been an attender and not a staffer.
It seems to me that the answer to the author’s question is built into her rhetoric. She does not agree with women being head pastors. So why would women be paid equally and hired as often if they will not be ‘in the running’ so to speak for the ‘chief’ job?
From a business standpoint, you don’t pay an administrative assistant the same as you would a junior associate. The junior associate is expected to go up, the administrative assistant, though in many ways much more necessary because of the support staff role, is generally expected to have less direct responsibility.
I think that when you believe women should not be Head Pastors, there’s a level of natural oppression that goes hand in hand with that. There has to be a ‘why’. My understanding is that the ‘why’ has to do with men being the intended leaders of the church, with women being the support. It seems to me that you have to go all the way and say that women are capable and worthy of being head pastors and the salaries that come with being equal, and fight for it, or accept it, because you yourself have agreed that women have a predetermined place in the order of things.
Again, just my understanding of it from outside.
Kate, wow, I appreciate that feedback and your question. in Scripture (in Timothy or otherwise) women are not to Senior pastors, but they can absolutely hold roles of authority, ie. business administrator, communication director, women’s director, etc. these are the roles that more often than not women are being overlooked for. or in an associate position, in which you speak and i am actually in, not an administrative assistant, there is little room for growth beyond it because a male is the appointed director or leader of the department, and the male counterpart to a position like i am in would be making more, even with less experience. these are not positions of pastorship, thus inappropriate (in my opinion) for a women not to have an equal chance or equal pay.
Jan is so right on when she talks about all leaders stop and evaluate why they choose to lead. it is because of what scripture says or because how they were taught? they could (and probably are) two very different things.
Jan-
Very well said.
I agree with Kate.
Crystal, please give me scripture to support your idea that women are not to be “senior pastor.” Also, what in your own thoughts/beliefs/experiences make you come to this decision?
pretty much all of 1 Timothy of women’s restrictions on teaching men. Thus, unless the church is entirely women, then they are not be senior leadership. leadership and have authority, yes, but not in teaching over the church. 1 Timothy 2:8-15
perhaps it is just have i myself have been taught… but i’ve already thoroughly books like “Recovering Biblical Womanhood and Manhood” and other books, alike and opposite and the underlining conclusion of all of them (and scripture) would suggest what i have said.
Lots of thoughts, lots of thoughts. The only thought I’d add to the discussion is that women held every single position in leadership except for the High Priest. Judge, Prophet, Priest, etc.
Derrick – don’t forget though that Deborah was a Judge and Anna was a prophetess. And in the Timothies it refers many times to the role of women as prophets.
Crystal – Wow. I’m sorry! Sounds like you have some wounds that need some healing. Not sure you are going to find it here. In my opinion, you are taking your questions to the wrong place. I believe Father is the only one that can answer your questions in a satisfactory way for you. God’s speed my sister. Sincerely.
Crystal: I applaud your writings. I know you definitely reach countless women who not only work in Churches, but the Secular world. Being a Mom, Pastor’s Wife, dealing with any and all women’s issues, I will honestly say, you are right on target. I’m always in favor of sending a lady to my husband who is the Senior Pastor, and share her heart. It’s possible Sr. Pastors aren’t aware of the suffering and I believe would do something about it. Being a Mom first I can only say our beloved daughter who is probably your age works in the secular world and does her (male boss’) job because she has a M.A. degree, but does not get fully compensated. Anyway, I always LOVE to read what you write on Anne’s blogs and I’m praying they give you a bonus for your tremendous insight. I was hoping Anne would put you on as a guest blogger. Thanks!
Hey!
I just posted a blog entry yesterday about my thoughts on this issue @
http://www.shauninthecity.com/blog/2008/05/banning-women-f.html
but, but, but……Crystal………..were they major or minor prophets?????
it really, really disturbs me that church staff folks no so little about the Bible
honey,
make sure you cover your head, don’t cut your hair, no jewelry or make up, and for goodness sake don’t be seen in a public place during the heat of the day today! oh, and don’t talk to men unless you are of ill repute –
love,
your male pastor husband
p.s. pls. mow the yard and have dinner ready promptly at 6:00pm – i’m going to a men’s discussion group tonight to discuss the value of a Godly (and barefoot) wife
absolutely, taking my questions to our Father is the first thing i should (and do) to figure out all this stuff. but when there’s confirmation in my seeking Him, continued restlessness in my spirit and promptings to speak out, what then? obviously there’s something of truth in what i bring up otherwise i wouldn’t be fighting for it and He would fill me with a peace about the whole situation. so i guess that’s where i would disagree with you.
Crystal – see comment on your blog….
For the record, I do think there is someting of truth in what you are feeling, absolutely!
I’m glad to have escaped from the world of male-only church leadership into a church family that affirms God’s call in everyone’s life, be they man or woman. I do believe that God calls women to be pastors, and to every other kind of leadership position. If this call is affirmed by a church community and a woman is clearly gifted by God in those ways, it’s beyond me why anyone would risk not responding to God’s call.
This sermon has been very helpful to me in thinking about these issues – it’s called “We Ordain Women Because We Baptize Girls”:
http://www.centerforbaptiststudies.org/sermons/poole01.htm
The author makes the point that there’s something about our baptism that washes away all the distinctions we cling to in this life. When Paul said that in Christ, “there is neither male nor female,” I’m pretty sure he meant it.
I’m in corporate America, which I consider my ministry, and the Good Ole Boys club is alive and well in the business arena.
I’ve often sat across the table from board members when they barely acknowledged my input. Then one of the older gentlemen in the room would voice the exact same ideas (sometimes verbatim), and everyone would jump in like it was the smartest thing they’d ever heard.
After devouring books like “Nice Girls Don’t Get The Corner Office” and trying out different (often comical) ways to stand out and build credibility, I decided I would work as an act of worship unto God and let my promotion come from Him. Matthew 6:33 became my anthem. Not long after adopting this attitude, I was unexpectedly promoted above my boss (who became my subordinate).
(I should add that mastering the art of godly confrontations is a major advantage. I’d recommend “Boundaries Face to Face” by Cloud & Townsend.)
Crystal, in response to your comment about Christ talking to women first to spread the news He was alive. Maybe He figured the news would spread faster if He told women. :) Just kidding.
Now that I’ve got all the women on my side. Yea right!. I sympathize with your frustration about being looked down upon, not respected, almost as second rate citizens so to speak, like your opinion isn’t worth as much as “A Man’s,” so just get back in the nursery and change that diaper. I won’t comment about the whole leadership thing and what the Bible has to say about women in the church and all that but I will say that the last church I was a worship pastor at, we had a pastoral change and imeediately when they got a new lead pastor and he started gettting his staff in place my wife could sense that these guys basically did not like women. They were all married but definitely male chauvanistic to the max. I think basically they were threatened by women. There were plenty of double-standards when it came to men/women. Now I’m not a feminie man but I never felt I really fit in with these new pastors and never felt like one of the good ole boys that they definitely were. I mean I like sports as much as the next guy but that didn’t mean the first 30 minutes of staff meeting should be about who won the game last night.
I sympathize with you women.
Please don’t sympathize because I’m a woman. I can do things you can’t do. You can do things I can’t do. Being a woman is amazing. If the church isn’t recognizing and celebrating the different gifts and abilities we (both men and women) have, it’s not so much a gender issue as it is a much bigger issue of sin. I don’t need to fight to be equal to a man, I need to fight to be content within myself. Caring whether or not I could or should ever be of the same status as a man just isn’t what I care to spend my time thinking about when I am ALREADY myself and can offer that to the world.
This was an amazing post! I am very blessed to work at a church which is completely supportive of women in leadership, however, I work in a dept of all men. And as you said, it can get lonely at times. It does, at times, feel very much like a boys club.
I also do agree with you that I don’t believe women are called to be senior pastors but have very influential calls within the church body. I am proud to be called into the Lord’s service. However, as a worship leader, I have been told many times, “I just feel more comfortable being led by a male worship leader.” It’s difficult to respond to that, but I keep my nose the grindstone and continue to follow God’s call. That has led to immeasurable blessings that I can’t deny.
Thanks for the post!
T in Africa (love that btw) – just got around to reading the teaching on the link you provided – thanks, good stuff
can you imagine the reaction Paul got from that? no Jew or Gentile, no male or female – wow, wow, wow
Uh huh!
I have often wondered this very thing myself. I’m glad that you flat out said it. I’m no feminist either but i do believe that woman are typically more of the spiritual leaders in the homes these days. Seeing as marriages have mirgrated so seemingly far from Gods Word. The men who were called to be the spiritual leaders have not so many been in the word i think evidence proves that. Not to mention there’s little accountability in this society anymore to anyone, anywhere. I believe that we still need to abide by God’s word regardless of how times are changin’ because He doesn’t change. Although i do think that women should be looked upon as any less knowledgable or prophetic as a man. The Lord can speak to and through whomever He desires. Love the article!
After listening to a series of sermons from a church who’s preaching staff always teaches me something new about God, I learned to understand how men and women are viewed in Gods eye’s. I used to often wonder why the main “leaders” of a church are always men… and I used to think that a woman couldn’t be a leader (any leader, in the church or outside of the church) I think that I believed that because I also used to believe that the man/ husband was the “leader” in marriage… But now, I don’t think thats how it is supposed to be. It is still something I ponder and I’m not sure exactly where I stand (mostly because I know that I’ll never figure out Gods brain) but I definitely lean towards true, un-compromised equality between man and woman.
I am not going to try and dismiss that there have been and still are many churches that discriminate against women in various ways (salary, responsibility, having their voice and opinions heard, etc). However, on some of the theological “proofs” that have been brought out, we need to be careful that we don’t start out with our own supposition and then set out to prove it. Texas in Africa…Poole’s thoughts (provided in your link) are far from theologically sound. His interpretation of the text in Galatians 3 is taken way too far. Paul is saying that our identity is now in Christ, not in our ethnicity, societal status, or gender as was the audience he was speaking to(and still is today unfortunately). That doesn’t mean that our roles have changed. Because of my wife’s gender, she is still the one that had the responsibility and privilege of carrying our children. She didn’t become less female because of Paul’s words. I didn’t become less male. His interpretation of 1 Cor 11:15 is also off. Nowhere is it stated or implied that the women the text talks about were worship leaders…only that they were worshippers. So when he states that “obviously Paul is expecting women to help lead worship…” he is wrong. No where is it obvious he was talking about leading worship…just participating in the service. The dress code was referring to all female worshippers, not specifically leaders. I don’t even necessarily think that worship leaders have to be male, but the misuse of scripture upsets me when it is used to make a point. He also states that the Bible speaks with more than one voice and on this issue is a “tie.” If you believe the Bible is the inspired word of God, it doesn’t matter if the pen to write the text was held by different hands, the voice was breathed by the same God, Who does not contradict Himself. We should celebrate the differences God has given each gender and realize that we need to other to fully comprehend the fullness of God’s image. But let’s be careful not to take that truth to mean that we all have the same roles and responsibilities. Thanks for letting me go on and on…this if my first ever blog!
Hi, I have never posted on Anne’s blog before but I was checking it out this morning and came across all this and am dying to say something.
There is no such thing as equality among people. Men or women. We all have equal value before God, of course. But do any of us have equal giftings, equal talents, equal insight, equal treasures, equal beauty, equal anything? We are all who God made us to be and it certainly isn’t equal. If we truly love each other we all get to share each other’s gifts. We won’t be jealous and threatened by each other but delight in each other.
I believe if there is to be true unity in the church, men and women should WANT to be together. On all levels. If we are all FOR each other, we should care more about unity, love, and fighting together for God’s kingdom than anything else. I don’t care who is leading as long as we are going as fast as we can in the right direction. (Making sure not to leave any of His precious ones behind, of course) Time is short and we spend way too much time trying to figure out how~to~do what, than actually doing anything. Men and women together complete the image of God. The senior pastor (who I think should be a man)can make the final decision, but they should never disregard the women. They are missing out, the women are missing out, the Church is weakened by our division. I am so hoping this is the generation where God unites the men and women, for His glory.