Question of the day…HOW DO YOU KNOW IT’S GOD?
Some more christianesque catch phrases.
“God is blessing this” or
“You know it’s god doing this or that…”
A lot of people show up to a church and we say “God was moving…”
But what if it’s not God?
What if it really is slick marketing, charismatic leaders, feel-good buzz, and a show?
There are “cult” followings (I mean that in a non-religious sense) to other things…Apple, The Rolling Stones, American Idol, LOST, Starbucks, etc…which all have some notion of remarkableness. Some kind of success.
How do we know the result of our efforts are “God?”
Or are they our cultures’ response to sensationalism?
Can they be both at the same time?
How do you know the difference?
Comments
72 responses to “How do you know it’s God?”
I’m stumped.
Ha! Great question. I am a marketer so I feel pretty passionate about this. I think they can and should be both.
example: the tearful and emotion provoking commercials and paid programming on TV to sponsor hungry children in Africa. That’s slick marketing.
But we know this is God because the word says that it’s God’s will that all come to know him and his LOVE. If we are spreading God’s love – even through slick marketing – then it is God. Period.
the first thing that comes to mind is that there will be radical life transformation if it’s God…people will not be able to remain unchanged if it’s God…which will take time to know if it is genuine or not…
second thought…the bakers(jim/tammy fay), crashed and burned…had a huge following and life transformation may have very well taken place in some people, bringing them to a personal relationship with Christ that has continued…so in that situation i would say both happened…(if that assumption is true)
some people will initially be drawn by the sensationalism, and then God can draw them in to what is real and personal.
my question is whether you are telling me i’m in a cult…by placing starbucks on your list???
Brilliant question Anne,
I ask myself this almost everyday.
I believe God can work though marketing the same way he works through everything else. The goal is to do our church marketing faithfully, with excellence and in a way that glorifies God.
i have a lot of thoughts on this. let me collaborate.
i agree with jon, i think that it could start because of good marketing or “everyone is doing it” but do they stick?
Personally, i started going to church because it was cool….but it became God.
I dont know what to say, but i am excited about the discussion that will come from this.
Anne,
I think it’s so hard to know in the moment itself. If we’ve “…let God transform [us] into a new person by changing the way [we] think. Then [we’ll] will learn to know God’s will for [us], which is good and pleasing and perfect.”
I think we go in faith, hope and love, and look to the short and long-term fruit, as Jesus taught us to do. But we must be sure to do this in love because we still see through a foggy window while we’re on this world.
The metrics that I use are:
1. Are we ministering at the point of need in our city like Jesus showed us by example?
2. Are we impacting our city and making a difference?
3. Are we building and eqquiping people to continue the ministry of Jesus in the power of the Holy Spirit?
I refuse to use money and church attendance to measure our efforts at http://www.LovingGodFellowship.org . We can be the biggest church in our city, but not impact it and thus be a huge failure.
Great question Anne. Keep them coming!
Know that you are loved,
gaj
It’s an interesting question. I think you need to play “Flip that meme!” though.(grin)
If It’s God, how can you doubt that it is?
I think folks are on the right track here. Does it transmute into life change? If the marketing and slickness don’t impact the lives of the people to meet the Holy Spirit and experience real change in their lives, then it’s probably not of God.
I think of it this way. Look at your own book, Anne. I think your cover mock up that many of us have pasted all over the internet is pretty cool (slick) looking. I would be prompted to at the very least pick up this book in the book store and look it over with a mind to possibly purchasing it, just based on the cover design and the title.
Did God prompt you to write that book? I can’t answer that question, but you can. If He did, does the marketing and presentation of said book detract from the truth inside? Will I be less impacted by the truth inside if I at first bought the book solely based on the packaging?
In the end, I am responsible for testing what is true against the leading of the Spirit and the Word.
1 John 4:7-8 says that Love is of God and everyone that loves is born of God. This is not “like” or “lust”. This is the 1 Cor. 13 long-suffering, sacrificial type love. If you are successful in serving others and God is blessing you with the tools to bless others I would say it is very likely God. If you are just getting a bunch of stuff or followers to make you look good or enjoy life better it may just be marketing.
So if God and marketing lead to the same results, why chose God? Because, His results last longer (eternal).
How do you know it’s God?
I would say your first stop is scripture (He gave it to us for a reason). No matter how loving, compassionate, and trustworthy “it” might seem, if “it” doesn’t line up there, we have some problems.
Second what does “it” say about Jesus. 1 John tells us to test the spirits by what they say about Jesus. Does “it” just tell us that Jesus was a good guy, a moral compass, or does “it” point to Him as our compassionate, loving, Lord and Savior.
Third does it point to God. Throughout scripture you see God saying He does things for His name’s sake. God is about pointing people to Him (since He is ultimately good…this is good for us). If all “it” does is make us focus on ourselves more (even making ourselves feel better about ourselves) and not God, I would be weary to say that is God.
If “it” falls in line with those three things, I would say “it” is from God. Other than that…God can use whatever He wants. I’m not worried about the medium as much as the message.
@GregQualis: that’s some good stuff right there.
well said, Jeff…
i certainly do not have a complete answer, but what came to mind is: does the “it” align with Scripture; not just our “proof texting”, but the whole of Scripture.
i suppose the doctrinal traditions one holds to might be a factor. that is, i – as a Wesleyan – may not concur with someone of a Reformed/Calvinist background regarding whether a certain “it” is of God.
so much to this…
I don’t know, but I do know that when you’re “charasmaticed’ in you feel like a arse afterwards….
I have been pondering that all morning. And it has nothing to do with advertising, which a lot of people are touching on here. I asked God to show me how I need to work better/more for Him, as I don’t really feel like I’m pulling my weight these days, but I’m at a loss for what I can do. I know there are many opportunities, but which one(s) does He want me in?
While reading my Bible this morning, something about the Israelites having to fast to express their commitment/apologies to God stood out at me. Was that God telling me to fast today to seek Him out? Or to fast just to obey Him, just because He said so? Or is that my mind just playing with me?
The answer is…I don’t know. What did I do? I am fasting. I figure this…if it is Him speaking, I don’t want to risk not doing it. If I’m asking for an opportunity, how awful would it be for me to turn down the first thing He told me to do? If I am wrong, what is fasting going to hurt me today?
So, I fast. Speak, Lord. Please.
(any you know what, this blog may be clarification that either what I’m doing is right or just that it is okay to wonder in the first place! God bless you!)
I talk about this with my friend all the time.
We came to the conclusion that for something to happen to where it wasn’t even possible for any of us to take credit but God.
I took it a step further that for God to be so glorious that even a atheist to say, “That is beyond mere mortal… I don’t know what, but there is no way a human could do that.”
Take glorifying God and keeping myself perfectly aligned with His will and that would be God and God alone.
If He wanted me to start a ministry, it is successful (by the kingdom’s standards) and then He wanted me to step down, that is God and God alone.
Always remember: this is His kingdom, not ours. God is the builder, not us.
(My last post makes it seem like I can define or try to limit God’s creativity. I am not. I am just throwing out some ideas “outside the box”.)
great ? anne –
how do we know it’s God. i aleways ask this ?first: how would I know that it’s not God?
Exactly.
Where did we get the ideas that 1) churches should be evaluated on a scale of “success”, 2) that success is measured by size, and 3) that the way we do church in the modern American south and midwest is in any way Biblical?
That said, I think God works through broken vessels all the time. I also think good can come out of impure motives. My measure for whether it’s God doing something is whether whatever “it” is is part of the work of reconciling, redeeming, and resurrecting to return a broken world or a broken life to what it is supposed to be.
…or how about when you are unhappy with things going in say inside your church or job. Things not necessarily bad but things just aren’t as fun as they once were. then people will say “God just isn’t blessing this church” or “God is leading me to do or go to XYZ” No Fun = God isn’t blessing me anymore so I need to move on, etc.
Good post – I’ve ALWAYS wondered about this. It’s always GOD’s Blessings when things go good.
When family’s health abounds God is blessing us. But what about the family who looses a child to a sickness, or sickness hitsthe family or tragic death, divorce, debt? Does not God still love me as much as he loves those who are healthy, pretty and “BLESSED”??? Does God play favorites with his “blessings” of health, wealth, pretty faces, etc???
What about small churches – are they as “blessed” as larger churches? Or are the people the driving force in the successful churches?
God most certainly Blessed Paul & look at his life – at times it truly sucked – shipwrecks, beatings, etc. Do we want his blessings?
On another line – I love (not really) those women who always cry over something & then they say “God moved me or something similar” I’m thinking it was just your estrogen moving you!
Ponder – Ponder
thanks
sharon – i’m tearing up as i read your post!
fruit
fruit
fruit
fruit
fruit
not goosebumps.
not coincidences.
not sensationalism.
fruit.
fruit.
fruit.
LASTING fruit.
that’s easy.
changed lives.
now to go back and read the comments.
It was not until I was delivered into the hands of doctors that I lost consciousness. Even then, in that dream state between consciousness and unconsciousness, I had vivid images. I felt that I was surrounded by a group of people, people were trying to force the remaining life from me. I was trying to ask them why, what I had done to deserve this. “At least,” I said, “tell me what I’ve done wrong.”
A thundering voice interrupted them, saying: “Leave him alone. He’s done nothing wrong.” Suddenly the others left.
from CNN about José Ramos-Horta:
“I am not one to try and explain such occurrences. But I believe that at that point, I returned to life. And I believe that, while the doctors in East Timor, and in Darwin, Australia, were unquestionably critical to saving my life, I was also blessed by God. It seems that I was given a second chance.”
was this God?
how do you know it’s not God that allows cults, the stones, mac, etc. to grow they way he allowed babylon, persia, greece, rome, and the united states to rise?
how do you know it’s not God that keeps the church pastored by the faithful pastor and his wife small? or poor? or to go through difficult trials?
how do we know it’s not God that allows the rain to fall on the just and un-just alike. or vice-verse, how do we not know that God withholds the rains to fall on the just and un-just alike?
Sharon-I laughed out loud at your estrogen comment.
…I am thinking of starting philosophy.flowerdust.net :)
It says in the scripture to “test the spirits” so we need a test…
-does it square with basically what the Bible plainly says?
-does it at least make sense with what your community of faith, friends and family think?
-does your gut check it–spirit check with it, conscience?
-is it in line with “reasonable” living in that it does not cause you to drink cool aid that kills you, or sin, or…
Essentially, if we are God-breathed creatures, what we create even if we are sinners and have mixed motives have “God in it” so that is why you can read a book and be spiritually moved by a heretic author. So, our results in some way ARE ALWAYS from God. It does not make them sanctified, however, or authoritative to how we should live our lives. That is what scripture is for.
I think we know its God when we see true transformation happening, not just the deck being shuffled.
like so many others here, i say the first, numero-uno, absolute test is whether or not it lines up with scripture. God is not going to do something that will contradict his word, so this is definitely the litmus test.
second, scripture says that the Holy Spirit will lead and guide us into all truth. while i believe this is connected with numero uno, it also provides an opportunity for us to be sensitive to God’s leading.
third, our community of fellow believers will be a good source of joint-unified-interpretation.
fourth, the most challenging step of all… trust. after we’ve seen God’s hand, we have to trust him enough to follow.
“-does it square with basically what the Bible plainly says?”
or a better question would be:
“Does it line up with what the Bible says or does it line up with what I want?”
those are some hard questions if you can answer them honestly.
I find more often I’m going on a gut feeling inspired by my flimsy view of 1 John 3:20-21–“because if our hearts condemn us, God is greater than our hearts and knows all things.
21 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us we have confidence before God.”
“Does it square with scripture?” is an important and easy question to ask, but it’s difficult answer, because it’s impossible to always know what is scriptural and what is cultural. That’s why I try to judge more on the basis of whether what is happening is like what Jesus did.
I think it all comes down to “life change”, true growth, and fruit of the local believers. It doesn’t matter how big or small the church-if it isn’t God, overtime you will know…
apple is non-religious? dang it!
ALWAYS make sure it lines up with scripture – not your little tiny exert – He will not be inconsistent with the Word. It says – Jesus is the ONLY way – the TRUTH and the Life! So, if someone tells you there is more than one way and God told them that – you say, well – it’s not the same God that I worship!
From TD Jakes (Potter’s House): quotes from CNN article – so is THIS God or just charisma -it lines up with scripture pretty well, I think – how bout you?
“Our commitment to education, with the opening of a $14 million college prep school, Clay Academy, has prompted praise.
“Bishop T.D. Jakes is changing children and families by helping young people of all backgrounds and cultures achieve their purpose and potential. Clay Academy is an exceptional institution. The school helps students develop their faith, focus, and a foundation for the future. Emphasis is placed not only on encouraging students to strive for academic excellence, but also on providing opportunities for them to learn about love, life, and leadership,” said Rep. Carolyn Cheeks Kilpatrick, D-Michigan, who also is chairwoman of the Congressional Black Caucus.
Kilpatrick, who toured the school during a recent visit, was impressed with the facility and went on to say: “Clay Academy is an extension of Bishop Jakes’ central message of hope and healing. He and the staff are developing generations of leaders who will understand that when we embrace our common humanity and work together, we can change the world.”
Other examples of our work include economic development programs as well as our tireless efforts for victims of Hurricane Katrina, which resulted in placing more than 2,000 survivors in homes.
Internationally, not only does our church build water wells in Africa, but it also has provided computer technology in Kenya and has partnered with Church World Service, Habitat for Humanity, World Vision and the Red Cross.
Additionally, I have a team of our staff researching a pending project in Haiti to address the tragic lack of food that has resulted in some pregnant mothers eating mud pies.
Most recently, I was in New York where I was honored to receive the Essence President’s Award, which recognizes the writer whose work most reflects the vision of Essence magazine. While there, I also received the Martin Luther King Jr. Leadership Award from the Congress of Racial Equality for our work in promoting the dream of King’s message. “
Whoa, you and Los are really pulling out the hard questions today! I’m going to have to come back to this one…maybe read up on the previous comments so as not to repeat what’s already been said. But seriously, thank you for putting this out there!
we had a discussion about this at my YF last night, we came to conclusion that when God is speaking to you, or prompting you it will be very clear that it is God, always test it and check what you think He’s saying with the bible, coz if it doesn’t line up with scripture then its not God, also if you feel God is speaking to you and you ignore it, its not just gonna go away, He will continue to prompt and speak to you…
I think remembering to check Scripture is a big part … but then there are things that are not right or wrong, just there. As in, is a big church good or bad? Is a small one good or bad? Is this job or that the right one?
I live amongst people who over-spiritualize a lot. Just because something happens, does that mean its God’s will or could it be I live in a fallen world where things don’t always pan out? What do you guys think?
I think Anne’s talking about situations where the church doctrine is basically sound and the gospel is being taught, but yet one church on one corner is wildly successful yet another church just a block away is not. Is one experiencing a “move of God” and the other is not, or does one just have a better man-made marketing machine?
I personally believe that marketing machines can still be moves of God, but the key factor is God drawing unbelievers to Himself through the things that He has ordained his people to do.
…or what about when folk always say that God speaks to them everyday, yeah everyday. I know one person who says that God calls her Dear, Honey, etc. Gheesh – is God that southern? Really – does God speak to everyone that much other than the Word?
sharon
This is a good post (although not as good as Raggamuffin’s post)
Sharon is on to somethin’ here….
Tough to think sometimes if you’re feeling uncomfortable, or restless about something (ministry, relationship, people, making major decisions, etc)…whether that’s just normal reactions or God is using those reactions to guide you? Shouldn’t God’s peace be in your heart or is devil trying to make you uncomfortable in your decision?
I meant post about Rag’s Santa’s pic.
The Word is the focus!
I have to agree with all the other comments about squaring it up with scripture. That is the litmus test.
But beyond that, I think this all goes back to the motive of our hearts. Why do we do what we do? If only all our motives were tattooed on our foreheads. We wouldn’t be able to claim that God was calling us to do something if our tattoo shouted GREED. What are some things that have motivated me? A love for Christ and His Bride, desire to see others come to know Him. But I have also at times been motivated by fear, insecurity, greed, codependency, anger, revenge, and the list could go on and on.
I love it when a question on a blog drives me deep into Scripture to discover what God has to say about it. For so long in my ‘Christian’ life, I accepted the words of others as gospel. Today I know that God can speak directly to me through His Word. He is that personal.
So thanks, Anne, for provoking me to think deeply.
I think it is hard. So hard. And there is not just one perfect answer. Reading through the comments was a lovely exercise, as usual, however not the end of the conversation.
I also really, really like your last point can they be both at the same time. I find myself turned off by certain books and people who have been remarkably influential in my walk with Christ–turned off solely because they have become sensationalized and overexposed…maybe not even of their own doing.
In any case, great thought point, Anne. Thanks
One thing I talked about are Carlos’ blog is the ability to fast and stay steadfast in prayer. There is no real tangible way to know when something is God and when something is you. What I believe it comes down to is the size of your faith. The amount of time that is spent in prayer can and will be useful in determining whether something is blessed by God or only blessed by yourself.
I know many times in my life I have ran into situations where I have believed fully that God was telling me to do something or not do something. In the end I questioned it because the turn out wasn’t always good. Does that make it “not” God, surely not. If it turns out good, does it make it God ordained? Again, no.
The size of faith goes a long way. We also have to remember that if we put our faith in God when making our decisions, that He will lead us to His preferred destination, even if it’s the longer way.
So to summarize, I don’t know if there is a true way of really knowing if something is God or if it is you. We just have to put our faith in God and believe that fully if we are steadfast in prayer and trusting in Him, that He will lead us, and that the more of Him involved the better off we will be and the more likely that it will be His calling when we feel that “feeling” and less of our feelings.
Just my thoughts! Thanks for the discussion.
http://www.vagabondrunn.wordpress.com
Oh and the rule #1 of questions to ask to know that it’s not God….
Does it benefit His Kingdom?
Great question Anne! The one thing that keeps coming to my mind in regards to your question is God will confirm, confirm, and confirm again. Like when I started having an itch to move to Tacoma, Wa. It started by me having a dream (literally), then no inner peace about where I was living at the time, comments made by people in passing that really stuck with me, praying and feeling the urge to move, this list could go on and on; presisely what I meant when I said He will confirm, confirm, and confirm again.
Thanks, Anne. Just answering this question feels like another confirmation in my heart that this is where my Father wants me to be!
First time reader, first time commenter. The verse that comes to mind (I’m tired and don’t feel like looking up where it comes from) is the one that says (I’m paraphrasing here) “Friendship with the world is enmity with God”. I don’t believe that the things that are booming and popular in society are truly of God. If it was truth, the world would reject it because the world rejects truth and rejects God.
Like your blog! I’m a writer too. I’ll have to check our your book.
Smiles,
Genny
Well, I hope y’all get this figured out. I think God is gettin worried! (grin)
How do I know it’s of God? Fact is: It is of God….no if’s, and’s, but’s about it!!! The Holy Spirit moves me to do something like pray, read His word, a cause to be thankful, to help and love those that struggle. ….and listen for His prompting. He is our source! I truly love your question, Anne and these comments. Y’all are all so brilliant!
its a moving target. the bigness of churches – in history – is actually quite new. there was never discussion in the 1st century framed around questions like, “how many is your house church running?” etc. growth was important, but only in terms of starting new churches in communities around the known world. think: paul. were the early church leaders excited when the temple courts overflowed? certainly. but there’s no record of them equating that with “blessing.” the reason is that “God’s blessing” was a deeply familiar promise (Abraham) that had happened through Jesus. the early church movement was essentially about blessing God, not the other way around. someone earlier posted words and phrases like: fruit, serving others, etc. this is certainly the right lane to be in.
it still begs the question, “is church growth and the momentum of churches a blessing from God or is it all just self-effort from great leaders?” hard to say.
good post.
DEREK
But a Pharisee named Gamaliel, a teacher of the law, who was honored by all the people, stood up in the Sanhedrin…Then he addressed them: “Men of Israel, consider carefully what you intend to do to these men. Some time ago Theudas appeared, claiming to be somebody, and about four hundred men rallied to him. He was killed, all his followers were dispersed, and it all came to nothing. After him, Judas the Galilean appeared in the days of the census and led a band of people in revolt. He too was killed, and all his followers were scattered. Therefore, in the present case I advise you: Leave these men alone! Let them go! For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail. But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God.” Acts 5:34-39
Not that I’m saying anyone should fear for their life or anything.
I’ve been pondering on this post since yesterday. I haven’t read any of the other comments, but I guess for me it comes down to seeking God completely myself and if God is in it, He will show me in some way. That sounds like a lame cop-out, but I don’t know how else to say it. He’s God, I’m not and I just have to trust that He’ll show me what He’s in.
Slick marketing, charismatic leaders, and a good show attract people and can keep them coming back. God’s blessing can be in it especially with leaders who have integrity. The key marker is what will happen to the people if the Church shuts down. Will the people just gravitate to another “Church Show” or change the world around them. Are we making disciples who create spiritual footprints wherever they go or making more leaders to plant new entertainment venues?
Paul said that some preached the gospel out of envy, rivalry, and for selfish ambitions. In Philippians 1:18 Paul asks, What does it matter, whether it is for false motive or true? He rejoiced that Jesus was being preached.
Whether it is “God” doing it, or whether it is a cultural response to sensationalism…what does it matter if Jesus is being preached? I agree with Paul.
It is all God. Nothing happens in creation that is not for the Glory of God.
Its just a matter of perspective.
Mike
if it lines up with what I want, then it must be God – clearly He’s “opening a door”. then, when people try to keep me from getting what i want, i can say “it’s God’s will!”… that way they can’t argue with me!
if it doesn’t line up with what i want, then either it’s not God, or He is “closing a door”. then, when people try to get me to do something i don’t want to do, i can say “it’s not God’s will!”… that way they can’t argue with me!
either way, whether i give God credit or blame, people can’t argue with me…
*lol* Interesting POV Tony. I wonder how many people actually hold that view?
It is like the people that blame “The Devil” for everything bad that happens.
Mike
Tony G – I know that guy who claimed those very words. He wanted to be a worship leader so bad, but when his horrible pride got in the way he was asked to leave after several chances to change/repent. After several months the day came he was asked to step down & he said those very words ” it’s God’s will that I lead worship, if not here then somewhere else” The somewhere else count is more than 3 churches now. He would not take council or suggestion – was bent on doing it his way because his way was GOD’s way! Everyone else was trying to keep God’s will from getting done. It was so funny in a very sad twisted sort of way.
You pinned the classic lines on God’s will from the selfish person’s viewpoint.
peace
I don’t even know what to add to this — excellent discussion.
Blessings,
Karla
Sharon’s comment: <<>>
This is exactly where I am right now…am I Jonah, running the opposite direction, or Abraham, stepping out into new territory? Aaaah!
Oops…I mean Yonas’ comment: Tough to think sometimes if you’re feeling uncomfortable, or restless about something (ministry, relationship, people, making major decisions, etc)…whether that’s just normal reactions or God is using those reactions to guide you? Shouldn’t God’s peace be in your heart or is devil trying to make you uncomfortable in your decision?
When God stepped into my life, I realized that he was talking to me the entire time – I just choose not to listen. I am listening now – and God is everywhere in everything I do. He speaks to us in so many ways. There are times when He is working harder in my life and those are the times that I can feel his presence more – the “God Moments” if you will.
Along these lines, I wrote a song once that spoke to this point of hearing His words for the first time and the feeling that I was not worthy of hearing His word – that I knew that He was calling yet I didn’t know why especially when I thought that others were more worthy.
In my recent experience I have found that both these things – true (godly) and false charisma – can be working at the same time in the same person/church situation.
This is because God can only work with human frailty. The line between church and cult can be a very thin one sometimes.
The real issue is power. As charismatic (in both senses) church leaders become more powerful, the danger – and the likelihood – is that they become more corruptable. I know this because it happened to me. It’s subtle.
Eventually God won’t/can’t put up with it any longer and s/he pulls the rug from under your feet, and you come crashing down. Which in my case was no bad thing.
Bless you. This one of the most honest christian websites around.
K