pantyhose and elevators and my own skin. those are three things i’m uncomfortable in. (oh, wow. that rhymed!)
why the pantyhose? should be obvious. elevators? not a fan of getting stuck in a big metal box.
my own skin?
it has to do with my heart and my brain and my aspirations and dreams.
ministry is a fairly male-dominated game. and that’s cool. drill it down even more, when you have a heart for encouraging and equipping and dreaming with other pastors, well…as a girl, that can be tough to do. as a 20-something year old girl, perhaps even tougher.
most male leaders i know aren’t playing any kind of chauvinistic or age-hatin’ cards. so it’s not an issue of disrespect that i feel like i’m up against. there are just differences in guy leadership and girl leadership. the ways god has gifted us and crafted us.
most (but not all) women in ministry feel led to work in children’s ministry, education, women’s ministry…but i don’t. i know my calling…and it is working with pastors.
most of whom are men.
this is not a women-in-ministry debate. i just know that sometimes, i have a hard time wondering how it will all work out in the end. how does this look in my daily life? in my job? in the world…?? writing a book is pretty universal. and that’s a good start…but i know there’s more…
Comments
47 responses to “pantyhose and elevators and my own skin”
I think all of us regardless of what we do, even if we are the majority, wonder how it will all work out. Don’t feel like because you are a women in a male dominated world that you are alone. There is always more for all of us, you are just more open to the possibilities than most
I feel that, too; it’s an interesting juxtaposition between serving, understanding gender roles and ‘playing with the boys’. My most effective role, I have found, is being a thinking, pushing, prodding, creative GIRL behind our team of leaders, some of whom are men.
I think background experiences have a lot to do with it, as well…
anne, there is so much more! and you being a female IN NO WAY…NO WAY…limits that in God’s eyes. His creation intent – in the Garden – never included a hierarchy or more than/less than for men and women.
just yesterday, i bought joy (a campus pastor) a book titled “The Gospel of Ruth” by Carolyn Custis James (one of your fellow authors at Zondervan). maybe reading that would do your heart some good.
i am in your corner, anne. me in your corner, though, comes nowhere close to His cheerleading of you. :)
I spend a good deal of time thinking about this very subject. What does it mean to be a woman, a pastor, a “working mom” working in ministry, and yet not working in childrens’ or womens’ ministry?
There simply are very few of us who choose to take that path. Even our in the “most innovative” or “most influential” churches find it challenging to attract, develop, and retain women in such a nontraditional role.
Like you, I don’t wish to debate the presence of women in ministry. But also, like you, I do find our present situation interesting and I wonder how it will all turn out…
Thanks for the post!
crap! I have been working on a post quite like this for a while.
in different pre service prayer meetings and meetings it has become clear to me that it is different for men and women.
but what i think about is the fact that i dont have a model of a successful woman in ministry to follow. I have noticed that my prayer style and almost everything i do is influenced by a man.
funny…so i have been thinking about this alot.
for lynse…i regularly thank God that one of our PRIMARY teaching pastors at qcc is a woman. i have told her on multiple occasions (partly due to her teaching, partly due to her friendship) that i view her as a female “Paul”.
i have no doubt that the blessings we have experienced at qcc in the number of new believers and maturing disciples is because of her leadership.
i love being led and formed by men AND women. :)
This issue has been my journey for the past couple of years. I too have been called to a “traditionally male” ministry role. I’m currently searching for a church in the Nashville area where women are encouraged to follow the leadership path that God set for them even if it may not be children, women’s or youth ministry.
John Ireland, you are a rare soul. Thank you for encouraging and supporting women ministers. You give me hope!
Aren’t you glad that God knows exactly what He’s doing with you?
For some reason the more confused I get, the more my confidence in His ways grows. So I choose to embrace the uncertainty and tensions so that within me His peace can come in and live in tension with my passions with one not diluting the other… both retaining all their intensity. The sensation is of harmony, not conflict, to the degree we are able to embrace these and choose to be ok with them co-existing.
Maybe.
anne…I think I can empathize. I work in the staffing industry. Walk in to your local Adecco, Volt or Manpower office and tell me how many guys you see at a desk. So….I almost understand a little what you’re saying.
you write some very touching and meaningful posts, as I am sure you book will be.
I could get long winded; so I won’t. Just keep moving forward and listening to what God is telling you. Push the boundaries, Anne…..don’t be a sheep.
can i just say, THANK YOU for this? i’m a nearly-23-year-old college grad working at starbucks, trying to hash out my calling. i love all of my ministry experiences, mostly working with high school youth and college students … but sometimes i feel so pigeoned-holed in what i’m “allowed” to do in ministry. and to make it worse, the ones who are boxing me in are the ones who i love and respect the most! so thank you for being bold, and thank you for following your calling humbly. you’re a wonderful example for women, and i only hope that i can be that courageous (and full of faith) as i try to walk humbly with my God.
it is cool to see that the church family is growing and the pretenses that said that women can not be in ministry are no longer there.
I am so blessed to be in a great ministry, it is just hard personally sometimes. When you know that you are called to something more than administrative to know how to achieve that…that is kind of where i am on this journey right now.
i am sure through my continued prayer about this topic and discussion with people around me i will have a clairity moment and it will all make sense.
John- that is awesome! I have been around influencial women, but never any that are in a role such as that.
kari…you are welcome! lynse…check-out http://www.questcommunity.com to watch Helen teach. :)
I would give for anything to raise up leaders of women. Like in my small bible study group, we have 2 men to care for 4 guys but one women to care for 5+ women.
I pray to God for a solution.
I try to imagine myself in a room full of women leaders trying to tell them how to be better women ministers/moms/wives/etc.
Yikes!!!
Anne, you’re very brave! I have no idea what it’s like to be you.
Wow. I think I needed to read this. I work in church-planting and all the church-planters I know are men. It’s tough, and sometimes frustrating, to be honest. Thanks for reminding me that I’m not alone in this.
I totally appreciate you and Cathi’s thoughts/perspective on this subject.
i’ve felt this way for a LONG time as well. i have worked directly with the leadership of the churches i have been a part of and it’s a frustrating battle. my passion is often seen as moody and indicative of the PMSing nature of a woman. i have been dismissed for being too forward in my approach to get things accomplished (doesn’t bode well in kansas nor does it help that i lacked some relational intelligence at the time) and felt completely alone as my female counterparts stood quietly by their leader boyfriends/husbands and bakes cookies and pulled nursery duty. but i also see that in the corporate world too.
my answer… God created us for a reason. UNIQUELY created us. and i think we’re quite similar, so you must have prayed at one point in time or another that God would use you to do something that has never been done before … something that would change the world. i’ve noticed that it’s a lonely road and somewhere down the line we forget why we’re fighting so hard. and then, it never fails, i remember that moment where i was desperate to be used by God and begged Him to position me in a place where i would break the mold and bring glory to His name. i remember the vision i had for the church …
you and i were born to fight. and we will. the gender war is the least of our worries …
I totally respect you and as i’ve said before, i get a lot out of your blogs, even if you’re a girl, (joke)! God’s using you now and is preparing you for something more in the future. —You’ll probably pastor some kind of a crazy church, lol!
I completely understand. As a church planter’s wife, who has no interest in the children’s ministry or other typical pastor’s wife roles, I definitely find myself the odd person out. I feel called in an entirely different direction. Luckily, I have an out-of-the-box thinking husband who has my back!
I so relate.
I juggle two jobs – playing bass guitar and doing A/V nerdiness – and both of them are male-dominated areas. For example, I’m sure the guys that report to me get frustrated when I want to get a consensus before I make a decision, where they would probably just decide and go without asking around. I also know I’ve lost gigs just because my communication style was completely different from the guys that were hiring. That’s hard. I know God made me a girl for good reasons, but sometimes I wish I could share a gender perspective with my coworkers just so I could relate more easily to those around me!
Jordan, I totally agree with you. In the department i work in i am the only female. Sometimes it is intimidating…i have learned to have “thicker skin.” I wish that i could relate with them, but to relate i have to talk about things that my fiance has told me or things that make me feel like a boy. I have gotten into sports so that i can have something to talk about….but it is all good.
It is funny because they question things that i do, and i question things that they do.
I am loving this discussion.
Anne, I totally understand what you are talking about. Those are the issues I have been dealing with myself. I am getting ready to be finished with Seminary in May and am currently seeking out ministry positions. I am a single female and there are those same ministry barriers I have come across myself. I just know right now and today I have to put one foot in front of the other, but that foot HAS to follow God’s lead. I do agree that as guys and girls guy has created us and our leadership styles differently and God has a plan for us individually.
I know someone in the same boat (and she’s still in high school). It’s even tougher in the Bible belt because of the mindset of some in regards to a woman’s place in the ministry. Shaine Clairborne’s shirt at Catalyst said it all: God loves women preachers.
I think some of it is a time thing–as people see what you can do, they stop seeing you as a female, but simply as a leader.
I went through a lot of this when I started coaching my son’s ice hockey team, and each time I coached with a different group of guys…I didn’t try to “prove a point” or fight against it…just did my job what I knew best.
Now that I’m part of a new church plant, it is similar. Fortunately the guy I’m planting with sees me for what I am capable of. Hang in there and just keep doing–it may take a bit longer to “get going” but stay solid with it and it will be awesome!!
God is “NO respector of Persons”! God will show you the way girl just keep stepping!
Anne, a suggestion……maybe God could also use you to speak at the Deacons’ meetings, but I’m telling you because I’m a Pastor’s wife, your burden for Pastors is needed also. To me, if you have a special passion and insight into helping Pastors begin with some creative (I would call this behind the scenes using your graphic artist ability) framed words of encouragement and ultimately in the long run you could be known as THE ENCOURAGER of ENCOURAGERS. What a high calling…ministering to ministers!!! I want more than anything for my husband to be ENCOURAGED like that. I think it’s great that you that you want to work with Pastors. Of course you understand being the beloved daughter of a Pastor and at the same time you understand the Pastor’s wife also because of your Mom. I totally understand your dreams and aspirations. Do not give up!
ok, ok, ok –
i WILL wear pantyhose to work today, but only in the elevator
I used to think women ministers NEED to be aggressive in order to prove themselves. But my dad, who is a pastor, pointed me to Galatians 3:28, “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” to prove that there is no need for a female pastor to prove herself.
God made us all for different reasons – pastor or not, male or female – we all have our respective responsibilities in and for the Kingdom of God. :)
I,on the other hand, am in the traditional female pastor role in ministry. But my perspective is different. I’m not going to spout the typical stuff about shaping the next generation… blah, blah, blah. True as it may be, that’s not my calling. My role is influencing and leading my peers and leadership to embrace the vision of transforming this community. My platform is kids ministry, so my ‘reach’ looks different. But the end goal is the same. This community can (should) be a reflection of Jesus. This community can resonate Jesus. Not just another place where people live… some of which follow Jesus.
Hang on, Anne. He’s got a way of using all that’s inside of you. I don’t think any of us will be surprised. But I know we’ll all be blown away.
I can not comment on this blog without getting into the women in Ministry discussion. To me Paul is VERY clear on this issue. As far as women feeling led to lead men in ministry? Well, I agree with RC Sproul that God can not lead you to do something that is contrary to his revealed will. Therefore no woman would be led by God to be a leader of men in ministry since this is opposed to his revealed will.
But I guess that isn’t the answer you wanted.
Mike
Mike, I think that Paul is very clear on the issue for his audience.
Anne – So you deny Apostolic Authority? I agree that we must look at context in interpreting Scripture. But here Paul does not say that women should not be allowed authority over men except in certain situations or at certain times or that these particular Corinthian woman should not be allowed authority.. His statement is clear and it is blanket and it is just as applicable nearly 2000 years later. God created a hierarchy in the home and he created on in the church.
We must be careful not to let our “feelings” override clear Scripture.
Where do you see Paul limiting its application?
Mike
Mike, please do not belittle my calling into “feelings.”
That is just ridiculous.
http://bible.com/bibleanswers_result.php?id=141
provides great scriptural insight.
I am sorry if we disagree on this topic, but again, a calling and feelings are different. I am clearly aware of this.
But the issue is that God can not call you to something that is expressly forbidden by his revealed will. For example God can not call someone to be a murderer. In this case, women having authority over men is clearly a violation of Scripture, therefore any “calling” to the contrary must be reexamined. Or else I could have a “calling” to sleep with women before I am married. Or have a “calling” to sleep with the wives of all my congregants.
Always
Mike
for mike…
Paul delineates his primary audience simply by the fact that each of his letters are to a specific group of people. yes, there is ontological, God-fueled truth in those epistles. that truth gets revealed in the best way for each audience.
what was best for the establishment of true disciples and Church leaders in Corinth is not necessarily what is needed for all people in all time. remember that Paul often was writing words of correction to new communites of Christ followers.
a fallacy with the contention that women leading or teaching men is contrary to God’s will is that it uses Paul’s letters as a starting point. God’s creation intent – our appropriate starting point – is found in Genesis 2. do you find any hierarchy there? rather, it is a glimpse into His perfect design for men and women.
a genuine and thorough exegesis of the whole of Scripture will reveal that God has not placed any limitation on how women can serve the Kingdom; only humans have done that.
(anne, thanks for your grace in the amount of spaced i used :))
But the plan in Genesis 2 was effected by the fall. We now live in a post fall world, so the actual blueprint is in Genesis 3 until Glory. We are not in Glory yet (at least I am not, I cant speak for everyone). So there are two answers here.
1. Two parts can be equal and one still has authority over the other. The perfect example of this is in God’s relationship within the Trinity (the perfect relationship example that we should always attempt to emulate). God the father, God the son, and God the holy spirit are all equal and co-eternal. Yet God the father has authority over God the son and God the holy spirit. A man and his wife are equal but a man has authority over his wife. Females in ministry are not to be in authority over males, even though both males and females are called to do ministry.
2. We see the post fall order in Genesis 3. Although one day the pre-fall order will be restored (we see this in Revelation), but it has not been yet. So I use not only Paul’s Epistles, but also Genesis and Revelation as the basis for this view. In addition Scripture is crystal clear on this issue. There is specification of this being applicable to only the church Timothy is ministering at.
3. It is completely inappropriate to use Genesis 2 as a starting point for any discussion in this post fall world, except to point out the way things should have been, and the way they will be again one day.
Always
Mike
PS IN my ABF class at my old church we were speaking of church unity and the issue came up when they asked how we could come together as a congregation in unity if the elders chose a female as a pastoral candidate. My group of 5 women and 5 men decided that the only solution was to vote against her appointment, and if they insisted then to leave the congregation. It was interesting to note that the women were among the most vocal on the subject (including my girlfriend)…
Mike
Anne, I appreciate your communication concerning your own calling. We need to talk girl! All of the “wonderings” and concerns are mine as well. I work in ministry in a predominately male oriented area. I go to conferences and find almost no other female doing what I’m doing. I understand. I do not fit the stereotype. I hang out with the “guys” so much of the time. It can be lonely at times – there are just funny moments sometimes that are difficult to walk through. I blogged about this just a bit. Check it out:
http://aworshipfulheart.typepad.com/a_worshipful_heart/2007/10/a-painful-joy.html
Could this be book #2? Wanna collaborate? I believe women in leadership so need understanding and encouragement. Stay Strong Anne!
for mike…
first, it is clear that we disagree on this issue and do not intent to move from our position. that said, i will offer a cursory response to your three points and let this comment be my last one on this thread.
1. the perfection of the Trinity is unique; that perfection is a type for something much greater – love and harmony – rather than whether women can serve in a role of leadership with men. keep in mind that simply saying something is so does not make it so.
2. i would argue that the condition of humans and relationships that originates in Genesis 3 is descriptive rather than prescriptive. that is, God has spoken the consequences of Adam and Eve’s decision.
3. this stance strikes me as blatantly wrong. the creation intent revealed in Genesis 2 may not be achieved prior to the Son’s return, but to claim that we ought not desire to restore even some measure of it now indicates an inclination to abdicate part of our role in the Story of redemption.
btw, my wife currently is a candidate for ordination and i wholeheartedly believe she is – and will increasingly be – an example of Kingdom leadership. and, no, i did not take my current stance on women in ministry after i met her. i aligned with that doctrine years before i met her.
blessings, brother. i hope one day you are able to sit under the Holy Spirit-driven teaching of a woman.
john
John, thanks for your response!
We will agree to disagree!
As far as sitting under the teaching of a woman? That will never happen, but I look forward to the day when we can sit at the feet and learn from the ultimate teacher!
Mike
girl… I know what you mean… like seriously… more than you even know.
I believe women are incredible, irreplaceable assets to the church.
The Bible is only very clear on only one subject: Who leads the relationship (men) – in context of marriage. Yet, both need each other to exist.
What Paul says about women teaching makes no sense to me. It doesn’t have to. I can interpret that no more than I can interpret why God told Ehud to stick a knife in Eglon’s fat belly (Judges 3:12-30). It would be ignorant for me to say why God chose to say that. I don’t know, and never will, and don’t have to know to keep fulfilling God’s purpose here on earth.
Consider also for a moment:
– God revealed Himself as a man
– All the priests and kings were men
– I believe all the prophets were men, also
This weekend I sat and listened to amazing women teaching/preaching on all sorts of spiritual matters. I’ve never been more ministered to in my entire life! They were better than 90% of the (male)pastors I’ve experienced.
Does all this mean anything?
I don’t know.
Um, I am SO not a bible scholar nor an activist. But how do we explain God’s choice of Deborah as judge over Israel? Or Esther’s “confrontation” of her husband? Or mothers raising sons?
I have never felt called into children’s ministry, women’s ministry or education. So Anne, this post is intriguing to me. It stirred up a couple thoughts.
I love my current position as mom and take it very seriously from a leadership position, not just caregiver and grocery shopper. I love being a part of our church worship team. Right now I have no aspirations to lead as I know the time and emotional commitment it would take–and I haven’t been asked!:) But I also recognize my God given talents in creative thinking, leading corporate worship, and in some cases raising questions to spur on discussion or prompt new ideas. This is great pondering material. Excellent.
And right now, I’m going to lead my son not to smack his sisters with his pretend pirate sword. I might even feed them breakfast. God bless the Saturday night service!!!
Oh and D Rho, the first person the risen Jesus appeared to was a woman. God brought Jesus into the world through a woman.
Thanks for being willing to share your heart Anne and for being vunerable to a host of strangers– as many of us only know you through this blog.
I relate to every word you have expressed. I have long been facinated by the point Joni made – at how God has strategicly chosen to use women to communicate the Gospel in unique and powerful ways.
I take refuge in Acts 2. Its exciting to think about the amazing, great and unsearchable things that are happening in our time as the power of the Holy Spirit is at work redeeming His own.
Praise God for your willingness to communicate that which you are called by God to proclaim. Keep it up sista!
AnnieLaurie
Joni – You’re absolutely right!
The women characters in Scripture are my favorite ones: Eve, Sarah, Hagar, Sheba, Ruth, the woman seeking Solomon’s judgement, Mary, the woman at the well, the woman caught in adultery, the woman with the allabaster jar, the woman who touched Jesus garment… Like I said, “women are incredible, irreplaceable assets to the church”.
I believe women can lead in any area they choose.
Yet, let’s not overlook the unique design we each exist in, being men and women, and what they can be in a redeemed, God-honoring state.
joni – thanks for your great examples – as they say “it is what it is”.
I worked at General Motors for 16 yrs. The mfg/production environment (engineering) is still male dominated. When I was 22 started on a team of 40+ males, avg age 38; there were 3 other women in their 30s. It wasn’t pleasant. Ministry has a tougher internal struggle to deal with (as demonstrated via Mike & John) than what I did. On the other hand, the folks I dealt with were not always of the Christian persuasion, so I was at times cussed out in meetings or threatened in the plant. I was sexually harassed over & over.
I think that when we are female & young & passionate starting out in a male dominated industry we run the risk of being politely dismissed early on. “Yeah, that’s a great idea! We should consider doing something like that down the road…” What I’ve seen happen repeatedly with myself & other newbies is that we tend to ‘scream’ our positions because we feel we are not being heard. This is were we end up with the PMS – overemotional – girly label, blah, blah, blah.
Strategically, I started watching and learning for the guys in the room who always got their ideas adopted or the ones who everyone always turned to to ask their opinion. What were they doing that I wasn’t? 1) They rarely came to the table with just an idea. They came with a plan. 2) They never came to the table with a plan that would hit everyone cold (i.e. he let key players in on his idea & plan before he presented it) 3) If it was highly controversial, pre-meetings were held to diffuse the potential volatile clashes. 4) Supporters were already on-board.
I learned from the ones where were successful at what I wanted to accomplish. I think the same can be applied to you girly ministers. And my guess is that you will be the mentors of tomorrows female leaders.
Bust that glass ceiling Anne! I love it!