if you watch family guy (‘fess up, sinners) you’ll know where my title comes from. and yes, i do watch family guy.
anyway, i really don’t have a lot of hot buttons, but one thing that really grinds my gears is when people pick on pastors. even if i don’t know them. i think it has a lot to do with being a PK myself, and it is really easy for me to get defensive…
there have been a lot of news stories both nationally and locally about how some pastors “live” – and whether or not they lead lavish, luxurious lives (this post is already full of alliterations…yikes!)
so my little analytical brain started formulating and calculating “what is excess?” and “what is living extravagantly?”
let’s compare two very different scenarios. we will assume all parties are involved in vocational ministry and i am using dallas housing costs and the same percentage down and interest rates for the numbers.
scenario 1: we have a young married couple who live in a 1800 sq ft home which cost $160,000. they pay $800/month for their mortgage. that would mean that there is approximately 900 sq ft/person and the cost of living is approximately $400/person/month.
scenario 2: we have a married couple with three children who live in a 3000 sq ft home which cost $325,000. they pay $1600/month for their mortgage. that would mean there is approximately 600 sq ft/person and the cost of living is approximately $320/person/month.
Q: of the two above scenarios, who is living more extravagantly?
A: you can’t freaking tell, so stop wasting your time and move on.
SERIOUSLY. there is no way on this earth to measure that. you can look up how much a house cost and how big it is, but you can’t and won’t be the judge of whether or not a person is being god-honoring or not with their money. yes, pastors (and christians) should be (and will be held) responsible for what they have been given. but just because a pastor has a nice car, a plane, or a big house doesn’t necessarily mean anything.
maybe they live on 10% of their salary. maybe any ancillary income they have (speaking/books) goes 100% back into ministry and kingdom work. i know pastors who do all of the above. and on top of that they’re humble and don’t go around flaunting how much money they actually don’t take home.
i personally know a pastor with a plane (which the church did not pony up for) and i can tell you that plane has saved a heck of a lot of the church’s money in travel as he willingly uses it for church related things. but when most people hear “pastor so and so has a plane” their minds go immediately to how much of an extravagance that plane must be. when actually, it is the complete opposite. he flew me (for free) so I could visit some out of state friends who were coming out of a crisis. he is an extravagantly generous person.
we will never be able to judge, nor is it our job to. so please, let’s just move on to the things that matter, shall we?
so there is my annual rant. i hope you have enjoyed your stay.
Comments
60 responses to “what grinds my gears”
amen.
yeah girl. And why are we all up so freakin early in the morning? Oh, that’s right, my kids woke me up and then THEY went back to bed. Sorry, that has nothing to do with this post. Just a little extravagant whining.
As a fellow pk and someone who raises support, I appreciate what you’re aiming at. There is often this nagging question about what people will think if I own X or do Y with my time and money.
In all fairness though, if someone spends 10k on one night at a hotel when hundreds or thousands are homeless in their city then it’s time to at least have a conversation.
I think the concern in some of the recent news articles is that in some situations leaders it’s unclear who is walking with the pastor that will have those conversations. I’m not sure that means the government should be involved and I’m pretty sure that it doesn’t mean I should go around gossiping. But I don’t think we can say that no one can judge such things. As I think you’ve said in some of your writing we all need a trustworthy friend who will say hard things to us.
Man o man, someone woke up early…and on the rant side o’ the bed the today! ;)
I think if we all were to focus on Matt. 6:25-33 we wouldn’t even care what so-and-so had because our NEEDS would’ve been already met by God. If a pastor has a lot of kiddos, they need a bigger house than someone with one kiddo or no kiddos at all. Plain and simple.
I think the root of all of this “controversy” is jealousy. From both within and without the Body of Christ.
Thanks Anne! Sadly, a lot of churches pray for God to keep them (pastors) humble and say, we’ll keep them poor. I thought the worker deserves his wages (1 Timothy 5:18). Maybe I’m a little biased because I’m on a church staff though.
I’m a pastor and it’s tough. I bought the first car I’ve ever had a payment on this year. It’s not new…it’s 5 years old, but it’s nice. We had enough money in our budget to get this car and we decided as a family that we were sick of having all of our cars die after six months. We’ve got a toddler and it just seemed like the right thing to do. It’s nothing amazing…it’s a Toyota. What if it was a Lexus though? How about a BMW?
People say things here and there and make me feel like I’m supposed to be totally poor. It gets me all defensive and I have to protect myself from feeling like people are judging me. You know what though? They are.
I’m not into conspiracy theories or anything. The truth is, people judge the teacher more than the student. James 3 promises us this fact.
Now if we could just teach them how to properly judge us…
I admit it, Family Guy is a guilty pleasure of mine, wow it feels good to say that out loud. Anyway…
Pastors are people too. And most if not all sacrifice BIG TIME early on and throughout their ministries, so if God sees fit to bless them the overly critical types need to SHUT UP! I guess I can understand people outside the church looking at pastors and throwing stones, but when it comes from within the church that is just wrong.
Sure there are a few bad apples in the bunch that go overboard and fleece the flock for personal gain, but they are few and far between, most pastors are under paid and over worked and won’t see a mansion until they get to heaven and those that I know of who have made big bucks on book sales have stopped taking salaries from their churches, even paid back what they have made from their churches, many of them give upwards of 80% & 90% of their income to the church and other ministries, so the clowns that are complaining need to check the facts, get a clue, take a closer look at their own lives, find better things to do with their time, who knows maybe they should go into the ministry and realize every pastor should be taken better care of. If they wore the shoes for a week they would never criticize again.
Yeah I need to settle down now.
Stewy Rocks!
i think that different people have different priorities. Some people like to spend their money on houses and where they live, while others spend it on cars or technology.
I agree in that it is not fair to judge if someone is living extravagantly. They may just budget their money differently.
i am with you, only God knows their heart and we shouldnt say a thing……
The problem here is not judgment. What if these particular ministries really are circumventing the law? Certainly we should not paint all with a broad brush, but when ARE we going to ask the hard questions? If there is wrongdoing, shouldn’t we also look at the deeper issue of why? For me, the deeper issue is a propounding of a false gospel that says Jesus died so YOU can be happy, healthy, wealthy. Tell that to the Burmese church, to the Christians fleeing Iraq, to the Christians in South Korea who just lost family members who went to aid others in Afghanistan, to the Dalit Christians in India… it just doesn’t add up. It is really very simple. Jesus was enraged at the money changers in the Temple. Who exactly is our example? Some might find this article link very helpful… from an ‘insider’s’ perspective:
http://charismamag.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1709
Thanks for letting me post! I really enjoy your blog and look forward to your book.
I gotta say… Family Guy is a pleasure of mine, and I don’t feel guilty about it at all.
I do think that people outside of the situation need to go about addressing their concerns in an appropriate way, but I very much believe that someone needs to be asking questions about this and keeping people accountable.
For instance… the particular pastor who owns a plane was recently flamed on his own blog about how little he works and how nice it must be for a church to pay for him to be on vacation all the time by some anonymous poster. That was the wrong way, and in fact, the guy (or gal) made an idiot of himself because his main focus was that the pastor owned a plane – turns out, someone GAVE him that plane when he mentioned that he’d like to learn how to fly.
On the other hand, I know that he knows he has to live in a way that honors God and he has relationships that hold him accountable.
I’ve heard it said that if a pastor is going to fall it will be over sex, money, or power. I’ve yet to see that statement proved wrong and every time it’s happened it’s because the pastor in question chose not to be in relationships that would hold him accountable.
Anne, you read my mind. I’m not a PK like you. I’m a PW (Pastor’s Wife) and have been for a long time. SOME people who don’t have a pastor as a parent or spouse don’t know what it’s like and can be extremely critical. (Others are happy to see their pastors earn a decent, comfortable living.) Those who are critical don’t know the emotional, physical and spiritual energy it takes away from a family. So, heaven forbid, if the pastor is given a little bit better of a salary so that his wife can rest easy knowing her electricity bill will be paid.
Thanks for your rant. I stood on my soap box with you as I read it. Looking forward to having you here at LC.tv.
Yay for discussion.
I agree with Clif – there are a few really bad apples (who sadly have proven themselves that way legally) in the bunch.
If someone is using their money in illegal or unethical ways, especially if they are a non profit, the government has full right to step in and ask questions.
We as Christians are not to be the judge and jury on people. We should hold other believers accountable, but in grace and love. If I was struggling with how I was spending my money and thought I was going to get pistol whipped for it, ain’t no way I’d open up to someone. Again, we have all been guilty of creating an environment of judgement and punishment in which few feel permission to talk about their struggles (as Dooley said, power, money or sex) openly and without fear.
Never in the Bible are we told we have the right to judge anyone’s heart or motives. I can think of several verses that say God’s our judge and we aren’t to judge, but I don’t think we’re allowed that action.
Accountability is one thing. Judgement is another. I myself have been guilty of judging ministers before and being cynical of the clothes they’re wearing or the cars they are driving. But honestly my heart wasn’t concerned for them – it was just pissed off.
And on a PK side note – my dad’s first church provided him a salary of $800/month full time. He never made it over $24000/year in ten years of pastoring.
I am not a great writer so I don’t know if this will make since. If you call me I could clarify.
I think that part of the problem is the “accountability” word that Anne used. We need a new word because we have screwed that one up. I am not interested in some kind of morality police following me around waiting for me to trip up so they can write me a ticket, but I am interested in real relationships where real people can have real conversations.
We think accountability means living the right way out of fear that someone will catch us doing something wrong. Maybe it’s just me but I think living in fear of missing up is not at all what Jesus had in mind.
Wouldn’t it be better if through the context of relationships we could help each other determine why we made the mistake and how to prevent it from happening again. Living in fear of being “pistol whipped” is not ever going to equal real life-change. I am with Anne – I don’t want to be accountable if that just means you are going to beat the crap out of me.
Sorry for the long post from a well-paid church planter.
Well said Anne!
Amen! Preach it, PK!!
And Anne? Only one annual rant? Please say it isn’t so. I like your rants!
I am embarrassed by how underpaid our pastoral staff is.
Somebody has actually had the nerve to criticize our pastor for being overweight. What amazes me is that people actually think these things over before they say them.
Then they discuss them with all their friends.
Then they pray about it.
Then they decide it is a good idea.
Hello my name is Kenyon and I enjoy Family Guy. It’s been at least 8 hours since my last “slip”.
This might be off topic but this whole issue really interests me as a church staffer of course. I agree that the vast majority of pastors and church staff are woefully taken advantage of and that issue alone raises a bunch of questions. But sticking with my train of thought here…It does seem that when some pastors achieve “success” there can very easily arise this sense of “I deserve this”. I feel it even with my very insignificant “successes” I experience day in and day out. A hypothetical situation: I have a great conversation with a seeker at Starbucks then I feel that I deserve to comp my coffee expense and maybe buy my wife a cup when I leave. Is that ethical? Is that ok? Just because I have one conversation I feel that I can then use church money to buy myself and my wife a victory $6 cup o joe? I admit that I have a very guilty conscience, but this doesn’t seem right to me. And I fear that as success and blessings come that I will justify bigger things. This is a heartfelt concern for me personally and I know that sometimes I transfer that to others (like those suspected of wrongdoing).
Scripture teaches that if we are faithful with little God can trust us with a lot. So a lot of the guys that have been “successful” has slugged it out for years, being very faithful with very little. When I see some of my fellow minister make it “big time” I rejoice knowing that they have in a sense “earned it” or “deserve it.” I understand Kenyon’s fear, but God only trusts us with what we can handle, and that applies to success and wealth as well as the trials and temptations.
Most people are not in ministry to become “Rockstars” they get into it out of a sense of calling and with that comes great sacrifice that get over looked by most, but never by God, and HE is a faithful and HE rewards His servants. Most of us drive crapy cars and live in small apartments/parsonages/homes, don’t have health insurance, or any kind of retirement, but yet we labor on knowing that it is for God glory and honor that we do it and one day we will hear Him say “Well done good and faithful servant,” and if God sees fit to reward some ministers this side of glory “Woo Hoo” as Homer would say.
I had my seven paragraph response to this….but I don’t want to murky up the water with arguments…so instead, I will just say this…
Kat Von D is my favorite (before she ditched Miami and created LA Ink..wonder what kinda deal she made with Ami on that but that’s a whole ‘nother topic), but she ain’t got nothin’ on Anne!
Kenyon – I love your heart and the concern you have. I think it shows a heart full (I first accidentally typed fart full…oops)…I think it shows a heart full of integrity. Thank you for sharing that with us and I agree wholeheartedly with you. I do think there are some pastors who do abuse that privledge and again things done in secret will be brought out in some way.
Yonas-I would love to hear your thoughts – are we missing something? Discussion here is so important and I think we all have something we can learn from each other even if we share different opinions.
And for the record, I love tattoos, but I think Kat could probably beat me any day as far as doing them :)
Please forgive me anyone if you took my post to mean… well, anything mean. Certainly, nearly everyone I know in ministry is often undervalued, underpaid, and frequently overworked. Those that are receiving blessing that more than meets their need are VERY few. It is the national ministry stories to which I referred. Perhaps the judgment issue is one that remains. We are responsible to discern. I have come very near despair on this issue of the prosperity gospel (which every national ministry currently under scrutiny espouses)…. I have seen such damage and true pain in people’s lives as a direct result.
Back to my low-payin’ job…….:)
When you join LC make sure you get a trip to the FTW/ dallas area. (Yes, it’s big FTW and little d)
Within a 20 mile radius there are over 50 mega churches (net worth over $20 million), Thy are extravagant malls of money, power, prestige, fame and utter awe to those that drive by. When you see it every day you do kinda have to wonder how much is really enough? Is Jerry’s 50 acre estate enough, FBD’s 4 square blocks of downtown dallas ($1.4 billion) enough, Prestonwood’s $50 million plaza enough, smilin’ joel’s $40 million houston arena enough, gloria’s $200 million complex and toys enough, potter’s house $300 million net worth enough, or His servant Abraham’s half of the freekin’ world and it’s posession’s enough?
To me the $ isn’t the issue – it’s simply the stewardship of that $ whether it’s one dollar or $125 million. God does bless and God does take away. God blesses sinners (us) and also non-believers.
They should follow the rules and law of the land and make sure that Ceasar get’s what is his if it’s appropriate – and they should give to the Lord what is the Lord’s. However, sometimes the Lord uses Ceasar to teach mighty lessons, and sometimes it is needed. If for no other reason than to keep us in line. I like Mr. Dollar’s response – my books are open any time and any place – come on down and take a look vs. the Copeland’s response of “why is everybody always pickin’ on me?”
From a secular perspective who looks guilty here?
Thanks for admitting to Family Guy, I can now watch it guilt free because of you. ;^)
I went to a conference at Willow Creek near Chicago a few weeks ago and this same issue came up in one of our side discussions. I think pastors are held at such a higher standard than the rest of us because no one looks wrongly at just a “church goer” with a fancy car or house. It is so true that most pastors don’t even make enough money to take care of a family, but it’s almost like we expect them to because they are “doing it” for God. I know I need to not judge as much as I do, but I have no room to talk with my fancy DLP TV, my surround sound, etc., etc. I know for me money is a struggle. I sometimes get envious of people with more than me even though my wife and I make more than enough for the both of us. I can’t remember who said it, but if we have clothes to wear, food to eat and shelter, we are rich. This would be true for most of us.
A rant worth discussing for sure! I have definitely been thinking about this topic but I’m afraid I’ve been guilty of running on the other side of the fence. I guess it’s so hard for me sometimes to live in the US where it seems almost necessary to have a lot of square footage, a computer, and cars. I think about average living in other countries that don’t have these things and they seem to get by. So maybe it’s not that I pick on pastors, but just everyone here in general. And yes, I’m typing this from my company issued smartphone while sitting in my company issued car, wishing I was in my 700 sq ft apartment with AC and TV and my PC.
Family Guy is funny but it is written by a bunch of manatees. Name that reference, sinners!
Thanks so much Anne for your reply…
A bit of my background: I grew up in a Christian family (dad was invited to become a pastor- but decided to pursue a business career instead, became pretty succesful and volunteered at the church in his sparetime with my mom)
It is so awesome that you make the effort to respond to people who post on your blog…one of my pet peeves is people who blog and ask for opinions, but don’t reply back when you post your .02 cents on it..but that’s definitely an entirely different topic….:))
Basically what I wasn’t going to add anything that’s totally new to what have been said by other posters. Although the term ‘living average’ ‘living well’ are pretty subjective, I’m pretty sure having a plane is extravagant by any standard- whether you’re a pastor of 20,000 congregation or a CEO of Coca-Cola. I’m speaking strictly from mathematical perspective: Say a person spends $5 million on a plane…not to mention upkeep, that is just a lot of money. I know somebody who was going to spend almost $10 mill on a private plane (AND has the money to do it)..after a while he said “Nah…I just invest the money someplace else…and I can just go on first class until I’m blue in the face and still have the money”. Again I am speaking out of pure economical perspective. I’m not sure on my stand yet if the plane was a ‘gift’ (pastor giving it away and use the money for different ministry, etc…)
I grew up in a country where hourly wage is about $1.5/hour. We had pastors who have to live on $200/month (with wife and kids), while I’ve also witnessed a pastor who spend five times that amount on his Louis Vitton pocket book AND testified in front of his congregation that “God blessed me since he pointed this out to me on sale” True story :)
Back to living ‘well’: Do I think having a $200-400,000 house for a pastor’s family (either with or without kids, depending on space needs), considered average and acceptable living? Yes. Owning two decent cars? Acceptable. Owning a $2.5 million mansion in a gated-community, Escalade and S class Mercedes in the garage….a bit much for a pastor and I think the money can be spend a bit more wisely. The reason why I said that is because many of the contributions/offerings may come from people who have very little. I know at least in my home church (overseas), we have people from diverse financial background (CEO earning $10,000/day while he sleeps…to somebody who cleans houses for $100/mth).
btw- too much to write but not enough space and I’m pretty sure I may have missed a few points here and there and hopefully that didn’t lessen the integrity of my post (can I blame this on being a non-native English speaker? :) )
Neener,
Please, come up with a harder reference. It’s South Park, but don’t tell anyone I knew that. By the way, if you play Guitar Hero and didn’t see last weeks episode shame on you. OK, I didn’t mean to say that.
This Sunday is the culmination of the stewardship campaign at our church where we will ask people to pledge a portion of their resources to the kingdom work we are doing. We serve a very knowledgeable group of people that have lots of doubts about organized religion. The stuff that Anne mentioned makes them question what they are giving to and why they are giving at all. Issues like Rolls Royce’s and private jets make it very problematic for a pastor like myself to seem credible. Wrong or not, it makes my job harder.
Ok so I’m gonna be one of those guys who starts throwing scripture around like I got it all figured out. But it is interesting that this scripture came up in our staph meetin’ this morning. 1 Corinthians 7:29-31. Some pretty harsh observations in this passage. Does it apply to this conversation at all?
Dan-I hope your campaign goes well. I personally think that each church should show its members that the church is using the money given responsibly. If a church isn’t opening up about how money is being spent, I too would have trust issues. If a church teaches Biblically on tithing and stewardship, models that, and is open about how resources are used, I think members are more apt to give than if it was a closed book situation.
The verses Kenyon references say:
But let me say this, dear brothers and sisters: The time that remains is very short. So from now on, those with wives should not focus only on their marriage. Those who weep or who rejoice or who buy things should not be absorbed by their weeping or their joy or their possessions. Those who use the things of the world should not become attached to them. For this world as we know it will soon pass away.
Since I am a big context freak, I looked up with Matthew Henry had to say about this passage:
The rules of Christianity reach every condition; and in every state a man may live so as to be a credit to it. It is the duty of every Christian to be content with his lot, and to conduct himself in his rank and place as becomes a Christian. Our comfort and happiness depend on what we are to Christ, not what we are in the world. No man should think to make his faith or religion, an argument to break through any natural or civil obligations. He should quietly and contentedly abide in the condition in which he is placed by Divine Providence.
I’m stealing a quote from my friend Makeesha for this. It comes from the good Dr. Seuss.
“Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don’t matter and those who matter don’t mind.”
Anne – Well said. I think the whole issue with the Senate inquiry into some of these pastors is that it has not been an open book issue. That’s why there is an investigation. They don’t know where the money has come from or if it has been spent in the ways it was intended. I believe with the level of doubt people live with that we have no choice but to be totally transparent as churches with our finances. I think I’m just mad that I’m forced, once again, to address an issue publicly with my congregation that I would admittedly rather avoid (because when I start talking about the shortcomings of other pastors I have no choice but to talk about my own)
:)
Success vs. Excess! Who is the judge?
I’d be interested to see an investigation into some of the bigger not-for-profit organizations. Many of the directors of these organizations make as much or more than these ministers, but I don’t see any inquiries there.
It’s really the IRS’ job to investigate this stuff anyway.
Just my two cents.
Every since I turned and focused on God and his righteousness, (shockingly enough) I became less and less critical of megachurches and the like.
I now go to a megachurch. I honestly don’t know and don’t care what my pastor drives or what his house looks like. I don’t care because I am incredibly wealthy myself. Every single day, God provides my food, shelter, clothing, protection, strength and wisdom. Whatever I need that day, I am good to go because every single day, I ask for it.
If I am fortunate and blessed to make it to bed that night, I will give thanks to the Lord. I will worship his holy name.
When I get up the next morning, I do it all over again.
Because God is my portion, no one in this world has more than I do and there “stuff” is not nicer than what I have. How can I be jealous over somebody else having more “stuff” than me?
With the whole “how can you spend that much money on a church and not help out the poor”. While I can’t speak for little ‘c’ church, I know if I am receive more money, then I ask God what does He want to do with His money. This paycheck I receive is not mine since God provided for me. If I have a surplus of money, time or other resources, I ask God what He needs me to do with it.
how much $ is enough? just a little bit more…
how much is too much? well… I certainly don’t have too much… but that guy, over there, who has way more stuff than me… HE’s got too much; that’s for sure.
Scott Williams wrote: “Success vs. Excess? Who’s the judge?”
Similar relativistic arguments have been used to justify hideously violent, graphic pornography as ‘art’. (One man’s art is another man’s porn, some would say.) As some point, someone has to judge (that’s why we have laws and judges!). As the Supreme Court said in regard to pornography, “I know it when I see it.”
There is a big difference between successful minister and these prosperity clowns. Someone like Rick Warren has made millions, but lives on 10% of his royalties, give 90% away and no longer takes a salary from his church. He is still doing pretty well, but has chosen to live in the same house he lived in before his book blew up. Comparatively speaking some of the PC’s (Prosperity Clowns) fleece the flock and all they talk about his health and wealth, and tell their people to give and they reap the benefits. If a PC is driving a C Class they say that is proof of the message they preach, but Rick Warren’s are driving an old Ford pickup. Big difference in the message and the fruit.
Sure there is a sliding scale, we all measure things differently, but excess is pretty obvious to all, if we start seeing minister showing up on Cribs then we have a problem. Until then don’t let the PCs make the rest look bad.
This discussion can go on forever. Money is a tabu subject at many churches. It does not matter what kind of car a pastor drives or where he lives. What matters the most is what he is doing for the kingdom of God. Who are we to judge? If they are lavishly expending the church’s money they will answer to God one day. Lets just focus on ourselves and stop looking at what The Pastor Jones are riding.
Just a thought.
Anne, I understand and respect your point about it really not being our business since we don’t have the information to accurately judge how people choose to live their lives. However, this is something I posted on another blog that discussed this:
I think the issue centers around what else could be done with the money besides spending lavishly on the pastor? I am sure that there are many needy people in the church or worthy causes outside of the church that could use those funds to minister to many instead of just one person. Furthermore, I agree that many congregations want more transparency in understanding where their contributions go and would rather have their money directed to other church needs rather than paying for the pastor’s Bentley. Finally, there are probably instances of massive tax evasion that need to be investigated and punished if found to be true.
So, when ministry is being neglected to serve the needs of the pastor or if illegal activities are being done, then the church has a responsibility to stop such behavior.
Anne, all I can say is… Touche. I have to admit, I’ve had that fleeting thought of “Hmmmm… interesting…” when I see certain pastors and their perceived lifestyle (I have to admit, Joel Osteen and the head pastor at Prestonwood pop into my head). But, as usual, you’re right!
P.S. Tony – it will ALWAYS be Big D… and then oh yeah that ftw thing that’s attached itself to our awesomeness ;)
I totally agree with this and what you guys are saying in this non-judgmental thing…I think you might remember this Anne, when a mutual friend was gifted a newer car and the giver was more upset by people finding out about it then the receiver. Funny how it can all lead to questions. But as I was reading through all these responses…I found myself wondering if these “mega-church” guys would ever, ever in a million years trade their 4 cars, and 10 city block facility for a church plant in the Bronx where they had to raise their own support. I know…I know, that is just me projecting “judgement” but I wonder…you know? I wonder if our own insecurities and experiences lead us to question what others are doing (in that particular area). Like I almost never (almost) judged what our pastor was spending or driving before we came here…it just never really entered my scope of things. I think because Daniel and I were pretty secure on giving and obedient to what He was calling us to do with our money. But now that we are on total support of people, it still isn’t about the money for us, but now it is a battle of time and sacrifice…because that is an area of weakness for me. Like where I feel vunerable. Of course that is what I am going to scout out first. Whatever. We are all in need of Grace. Broken people – we all are, in need of Him, you know?
Anne:
Hip, hip, hooray for you tellin’ it like it is being a pk. I cannot even find the words of gratitude for you sharing your heart…..so very true about your Dad. I’m a PW who has lived through the drudgery of business meetings where “let’s discuss should the Pastor get a raise?” I’ve also lived through three years and the Financial Secretary says (because she’s seen the ladies bring bags of clothes to me…….and they don’t think they’ll ever fit in them) and then says “Let’s give our Pastor a raise….he hasn’t asked for it, (& would never ask for it) but, it’s time.” Okay…I admit this sounds random…..but what I’m trying to say is we’ve been where your Dad has been. Seeing the lives change; couples connected, going to ask God to heal the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the physical and spiritual captives, and the opening of the prison and of the eyes to those who are bound, but someone caring enough to just ASK if the Pastor’s needs financially are being met is so needed. Of course our kids are grown now and all the giving of money and time we gave to spending our own money to take a family out in our church to eat countless times, has come back to us, as our kids are like you, seen us suffer; but our family has never been closer. What I’m trying to say is it’s not about money; it’s family closeness and sure the work of the Lord continues with the kazillion hours of serving, but we ask now for blessings, wisdom, and I love what Cindy B. said,”if the pastor is given a little bit better of a salary so that his wife can rest easy knowing her electricity bill will be paid.” We PW’s can really tell you where it’s at and we know FULLY our husbands are so devoted and giving, giving, giving to help every single person to have things working for them! Anne… love, joy, and comfort to your precious parents and thank you for transparenc. Pastors are hurting and need added prayers for strength as they get rest to go the extra miles.
If you want a different perspective….even for those with “low” salaries….go to Nigeria and tell a villager about your house or car or education. Go to Russia and tell a Believer there about your last vacation or your computer.
That was a turning point for me. First I felt guilty for having more. But then I remembered: “To whom much is given, much is required.’ Since those experiences, I have become decidedly more generous and more aware that God wants me to bless others with my resources. I quit worrying about “how much” and shifted to “stewardship” so that God would see me as a “faithful slave.”
To tell you the truth, I am so busy trying to figure out what being generous looks like for me everyday, I have very little time to be mad about someone else’s stuff. I screw up enough that most of my anger is directed into the mirror.
God’s still workin’ on me…
Anne, I see where you’re headed with this, and I can go with you – to a certain extent.
Like I said above… how much is enough?
For most of us, the answer is “just a little bit more”. Likewise, our standards of what is “too much” tend to be based on our OWN idea of what is “enough” for us. It’s a bit of a circular argument either way.
That said, though, I guess I might suggest that there’s a middle ground somewhere. There’s a concept in the practice of law known as the “reasonable man (or woman, or person, or whatever) standard” which basically asks the question “how would a reasonable person act in such-and-such circumstances?”. It’s a method of determining what is reasonable for society. Not a perfect method, but not bad, either.
Is it reasonable for a Pastor (whose income is derived from the contributions of church members) to earn a decent living? That he/she provides well for the family and doesn’t stress over the light bill? Sure, that’s reasonable.
Is it reasonable for a Pastor to take nice family vacation and re-charge every now and then? Yep. I’ll go with that.
Is it reasonable for a Pastor to drive a $40,000 Suburban or Expedition? Well… sure, that’s cool with me; maybe the family has a few kids, and maybe one of them plays hockey, so they have gear to tote around… yeah, I get that. Reasonable. To me.
Is it reasonable for a Pastor to drive a $100,000 Bentley? Hmmmm.
Here’s the thing, though. I’m not sure it matters whether the guy / girl in the discussion is a Pastor or not. The same questions could be asked of all of us… myself included.
We knew a Pastor in California… in 12 years, he never once took a pay raise. He said that he had all he needed, and didn’t want any more. A church member gave him a Cadillac… he felt conspicuous driving it… sold it and bought a VW.
He didn’t have to do either of those things. But it says a lot about him, I think. His family’s needs were met, and he didn’t want any more.
How much was “enough” for him? Apparently, he was fine with what he had… pretty rare…
Sorry so long… thought about this a lot last night.
I struggle with this a lot. As I thought about it overnight, I’m realizing that, at least for me, it’s partly a generational thing. My late 50’s minister dad drives a Lexus…(in his defense, he couldn’t find a Camry that he liked, it was $2,000 under book value, it was 9 years old when he bought it and he’ll drive it until it dies, or we convince him to get a Camry again). My mom and I don’t like the Lexus, and what it says about us, but she says “it’s what he wants, he deserves a nice car”. She’s got a point, and the people who see him driving his 11-year-old Lexus may not see her driving a 15-year-old Camry with 195K on it.
And then there’s me. (23, work in full-time ministry, but don’t really want to anymore. Ministry is what I want my life to be, and the things I do in the name of ministry (waste tons of trees creating and printing church flyers, bulletins, etc. are absolutely getting in the way of my ministry.) I totally didn’t want to go into debt at all, but I bought a 11-year-old Accord, with the plan of paying it off early, and then driving it for the next 10 or 15 years. I want to be debt-free so that I can go where God calls, live on as little income as possible, work in an inner-city, etc. My parents, well, they just want to be making it by.
There’s so much more I could say, but I’ll end with this. One thing that has absolutely MESSED UP ministers and their finances is parsonages. Except for a brief two-year-stint in the 70’s, my parents didn’t own a house until my dad was 40, because they always lived in provided housing. That definitely does not bode well for building equity, or being able to retire before you are 95, especially after a refinancing boom extends the loan. And now I’m stepping off my soapbox…
I read this today in my Oswald Chambers and thought it could be applied to situations like this:
Peter . . . said to Jesus, ’But Lord, what about this man?’ Jesus said to him, ’. . . what is that to you? You follow Me’ —John 21:21-22
One of the hardest lessons to learn comes from our stubborn refusal to refrain from interfering in other people’s lives. It takes a long time to realize the danger of being an amateur providence, that is, interfering with God’s plan for others.
Great blog! Lots of discussion. I personally hate all the media talk that’s going on about this. Why should we care what our pastors are doing with their money? We’re not all up in the business of CEOs or presidents of companies. If we trust them to lead us spiritually we should trust them with what they do with their own personal finances.
Wow! Hot topic and definetely soap box worthy. You should do this more often (and stop apologizing for doing it). As a pastor I can relate. I have a number of personal stories (which will remain personal) but I am more inclined to simply say that I completely agree that it is not our call to judge matters of the heart.
I don’t agree with the comparison one of the commentators made that suggests that, because people suffer and live a certain way in other countries necessarily requires that we compromise the standard of living here. I am Nigerian by birth. I was fortunate to grow up quite privileged (in Nigeria), but grew up in the midst of raging poverty. My response to serving less privileged people is really the issue that Jesus is more concerned with rather than the fact that I might drive a Hummer or a BMW.
Another one of the comments stated, quite emphatically I might add, that owning a plane is extravagant under any circumstance whether the Lead Pastor of a 20,000 strong church or the CEO of Pepsi. How does he arrive at this faulty conclusion? Does he know what the plane is used for? Is he aware of how much time and money it may save as the executives travel around to do their business? Is he aware of what the business tax write-offs are? It is a pretty sweeping assertion to state categorically that something is wrong when you don’t possess all the necessary information to make an accurate assessment.
I am certainly not advocating extravagant or hedonistic lifestyles. I for one am a member of the junky car club by choice because it serves me well to do so. I certainly don’t require it of my staff or anyone connected to me to be a member too. I am simply saying, like Ann, that we need to be really careful about how we get our knickers in a twist over issues that don’t concern us. There are certainly larger issues to deal with in the Body of Christ, such as reaching the lost, and saving unborn children from being aborted, amongst a myriad of other issues, and God is certainly not handicapped to deal with those that He needs to. The Bible is pretty clear about that.
Anne ~
First: thanks, again, for the forum you have created here and for your appropriate transparency.
Second: my understanding of the current look into several ministries around the U.S. is that it is primarily focused on how (as a tax-exempt “church”) the leadership of those communities is stewarding the financial resources it receives. This does not seem at all to be at odds with Scripture (ie – Matthew 25). It truly will be unfortunate if it turns out that these ministries have been mismanaging the offerings they receive. (I also am seriously disturbed by the theology they present, but that is another issue :)).
Sooo…I agree with the cautionary word about any of us being too inclined to “peek over the fence”. My sense is that what we are seeing in the news lately has more to do with how a church leadership stewards the oferrings it receives for ministry work than with how a pastor chooses to use her/his own income.
P.S. I also noticed that the comments are all over the place with regard to how much is too much and the pastor living large off the sweat of other people’s labor. So I ask these pertinent questions:
1. Who determines how much is sufficient to spend on a pastor’s car. If the “board” approves $40,000.00 for a car and the pastor finds a car for $42,000.00 that he really likes and so makes up the difference is he extravagant? Who sets the standard for what is an acceptable car and what isn’t especially since we all have different income levels and different commitments. If I pastor a church of 20,000 people, have grown kids who are living on their own, have paid off my home and make a great salary, who is to determine that it’s wrong for me to drive a “bentley”
2. What if I built a really successful business on the side or have written books that have been best-sellers, does that change the acceptance of an expensive lifestyle because I am not living off the tithes and offerings of the church? (If you answer no to this question, then you should also take issue with any successful christian who is living in above average comfort, thereby making your self lifestyle judge)
Again I say, it is a matter of the heart, and you earn the right to speak into someones life in this context. The lone ranger, critical approach never works and your voice pales to insignificance in the voluble criticism you unsolicitedly offer.
I apologize pastor Joseph for my faulty assesment. Obviously I don’t have a plane, I’m not a travel nor a tax expert, and I am not a CEO either so yes, perhaps my opinion from a layman’s perspective maybe too simplyfied and uhmm yes..faulty to you. It was just my opinion. I am sorry if you felt that this was directed at you by any means…yes, if one can afford two, three, four planes, and have a tax write off…have at it!
I need to point out though that it was a CEO of Coca Cola…not Pepsi :)
Ah….I should’ve stayed with my original stand of not posting…can’t voice my opinion without stepping on people’s toes!!
*Taking his toys and walking out of the sandbox*
OK I forgot one of my toys so I’m back for a bit…
Quoting mr.Pastor Joseph since he quoted mine
“Again I say, it is a matter of the heart, and you earn the right to speak into someones life in this context. The lone ranger, critical approach never works and your voice pales to insignificance in the voluble criticism you unsolicitedly offer.”
Perhaps even though I tried to not be too harsh with my posting, I did try to spend sometime thinking about the words I use, obviously judging from your response, my wording was still too harsh.
However I think I did hope to have some kind of free forum (America is a free country with freedom of speech, no?)….although I may have posted an opinion that a bit too strong for some people, I don’t think your last paragraph was necessary…it is just condescending in my opinion.
Phew…I really gotta step away from this.
Joseph – we agree, I’m just not sure we’re saying it the same way.
You posed a question (I’m paraphrasing; correct me if I am wrong) that said “Is an extravagent lifestyle any better or worse based on whether one makes lots of money off tithes and offerings, or from some other business?”…
I tried to say this above, but I don’t think I communicated it very well, so I’ll try again.
Personally – just me – I don’t care what you do or how you live – I can’t find a way to justify owning the Bentley (or other $100,000 car, or whatever toy you want to pick) when the Honda will do just fine getting me where I need to go.
As far as who sets the standard for what is acceptable and what is not… well, I took a shot at that when I mentioned the whole “reasonable man standard” thing. Sorta like someone mentioned above re: porn… it’s tough to define, but I know it when I see it.
After spending 8 years in church finance, which allowed me to see thousands of sets of financial statements for thousands of churches across the United States (all shapes and sizes), maybe I am – no, check that, for SURE I am pretty cynical about all this.
I have seen the guys who do it right, and the other guys, too. I’ve seen the financials of the mega-churches (even the ones mentioned in this thread), as well as many of the others.
After seeing all that (and I’ll probably get flamed for this one)… I can confirm that the great sucking sound you hear is the sound of the tithe dollars of a large percentage of American Christians being siphoned away from helping the poor and the sick, and funding the “church industry”…
Those dollars end up in the pockets of the nation’s largest banks in the form of monthly interest payments on huge cathedrals that sit empty 5 or 6 days a week…
Or, in some cases (though I think this is more rare), those dollars end up in the pockets of folks who sell hope and peace, call it Christianity, and pocket the proceeds.
Should pastors be paid fairly? Yep. Absolutely. Just like anyone who works for a living should be paid fairly.
Should pastors live a responsible lifestyle with those dollars? Yep. Absolutely. Just like I should live one with the dollars I earn.
**end rant**
Anne,
Great issue – I’ve enjoyed working through the comments, which are well done. Two points…
First, when we, as churches, got in bed with government through tax exempt status we had to assume at some point the government would come knocking! The subtext to this whoe thing is, “If the church can afford to pay their pastor THAT MUCH, they can pony up some tax money to the federal government.” Just keep watching the story and following the money.
Second, the American church simply does not deal with the ethics of money very well in my opinion. Too often this discussion is about how pastors are compensated within our American context, relative to others who are wealthier than us.
What is the NT ethic of money? Is there one? What does Jesus have to say? I’ve always understood the NT to teach that we should live on what we need and give away the rest – but how do we define need? If we actually use the definition of “need” (as in, without it we would die) the list would be pretty thin.
I have no answers, just questions.
I think a good start would be to need to name the sins of greed and materialism in our midst. Then we can start having an open discussion about money as a community. We are one of the wealthiest instutions in the world with a membership that is truely wealthly by any standard. Yet, we live in a world where children, made in the image of God, die of preventable diseases like a lack of access to clean water. Is it possible that the developing world is the beat up samaritan at the side of the road and we are the religious people avoiding him by walking on the other side of the road?
The worst part of the story is that the American government is asking tougher ethical questions about the church and money than we are ourselves. They don’t serve the one who said not to worry about what you will eat or wear or drink or where you will sleep, we do.
Perhaps I should avoid Brueggeman and watch more Family Guy (Yes, I’m also a fan)
Live Shalom!
Tony,
Thanks for your clarification. You are right when you say we agree in principle but are expressing it in different ways. I, like you, believe that we can adapt to a more disciplined lifestyle and put our finances to better use serving the Kingdom. I just don’t think that you nor I are the arbiters of defining that lifestyle for everyone.
Personally, I believe my calling to full-time ministry precludes me from driving a Bentley (regardless of where I may have earned the income to buy one) simply because it requires me to constantly have to explain why I have one while there are people in my congregation who can’t keep the lights on. But that is my standard. I don’t seek to impose it on anyone else since I am not their judge. If I had to give counsel to a friend who is going into ministry, I would seek to sell him on the same principles so that he doesn’t have to wade through murky waters.
At the end of the day, I refuse to stick my nose into dictating how others should live, unless they call me their pastor or look to me for direction and guidance.
Tony,
One other thing that I wanted to address was your issue of “reasonable man standard.” The minute you said, “I know it when I see it” you made it subjective. What is reasonable for you might not be reasonable for another. My point: You cannot define that standard nor can any one society. I am Nigerian and from the context of my culture, reasonable man standard differs vastly from the USA. Even the minimum wage earners in this country have garbage bins that they can fill with food that they throw away. In my country on the other hand people forage for food from garbage cans (and I’m not talking about vagrant wanderers here). What is considered reasonable man standard here may be considered sinfully extravagant elsewhere. But as they say, subjectivity is objectivity. Or is it?
Take the video on Ann’s latest post from Ethiopia as an example. Many Americans see that and instantly think how tough life must be. That would only be so in comparison to the lifestyle lived in America. In our part of the world the majority of people live at that standard and are content because they don’t know anything different. That for them would be reasonable man standard. Any kind of car (even the old clunker) would be considered an unecessary luxury since they make life work never owning any form of transportation themselves. Would that idea then make owning a clunker a luxury?
So its okay to judge those who are judging… but we shouldn’t judge right…???
Has all that steam cooked off yet!
Ha…
I am just giving you a hard time…
Great points!
I am a little skeptical, when I hear pastors talking about tithing, and giving campaigns, and hearing about about church members struggling to make ends meet, and others taking a second or third job so they can give their “required” percent as to not feel guilty… while the pastor lives in a half-million dollar house. There’s just something not right with that. IMO
I’m sorry Anne. I know it grinds your gears to hear people trash, pick on, or whatever you want to call it, pastors. I would like to share my story with you when I have time and if you would like to hear it. You might understand why I have an ax to grind with “some” pastors. Briefly my former pastor because he wanted his church to be the coolest place on earth and wanted a well known name in christian circles and wanted to be like Ed Young among other things, felt it ok to devestate me and my family by taking away my passion, ministry, job, along with my church family and more. I was a pastor for a while too so I understand the pressure to an extent. Here are the pressures I witnessed my former pastor go through. Going out to lunch with church money 4 or 5 times a week with only his “good old boy” pastors, curling up on the couch in his office reading books by other cool pastors, playing on his computer for hours watching cool videos and looking for cooll, edgy songs for the rock band to do on Sundays, going to conferences, doing video shoots with our video guy, copying sermons from Ed Young, Bill Hybels, Andy Stanley, Rick Warren to name a few, then putting about 2 or 3 hours into working on the Sunday motivational speech. I was on staff there and actually saw this. I’m not exaggeratting. He handled peoples feelings like they meant nothing. I know all pastors are not this way but I have a story of how one pastor ripped this family. By the way, my wife is an MK so don’t ever pick on a missionary. :) Ha!