there are several conferences going on this weekend for those of us who seem to live, eat and breathe church and leadership and creative stuff. i personally have sworn off conferences for the time being as i need to refocus where and how i get my information. but i was reading about some of the sessions at the daybreak conference (which i attended in 05) over at tim steven’s blog. pretty typical leadership conference bullet points, but this one kind of gave me that “alarmed” feeling in my spirit.
i realize i am not there, and quite possibly some of you are, so maybe the reason i am misunderstanding this statement is because it’s a bullet point taken out of context. if that is the case and someone can explain this further to me, please do.
but alone, i kind of find the content disturbing. tim noted:
This morning at the Creative Infusion Conference at Daybreak, I enjoyed a breakout session on Creative Leadership by Terry Woychowski, and executive with General Motors. Some notable quotes…
* The single most important element in your ministry is leadership. More important than worship, discipleship or missions. Because without good leadership–you can’t do any of that.
you can read the rest of the list here
i left a comment on his blog and said:
Some good stuff on leadership, but my heart kind of screeches and shoots up a thousand red flags on #1.
Maybe I am just being overly concerned with semantics but somehow I think obidience to and communion with Christ should replace the word “leadership” there.
That is why so many pastors get themselves in trouble…leadership becomes their God.
[[steps of soapbox]]
[[edit: as a result of a comment questioning the faith of Dr. Woychowski, his bio from the conference website reads:
Dr. Woychowski has been active in civic and volunteer work. He developed and led the efforts of his community?s involvement in setting up refugee camps in Albania and Kosovo during the conflict in the Balkans, making three trips to the region during that crisis. He has served his community as a paramedic and is the lead elder at his church.
Comments
28 responses to “weekend thought…help me understand”
I think this is what happens when one thinks we can boil down the churches irreducible minimums and place them on the same level as the corporate leadership structure of profit based organizations. While there are principles that are universal, they are completely different animals. I love leadership, yet at the end of the day, it is a means to an end, not the end in and of itself.
Last time I checked, Jesus didn’t tell us to “Go make leaders”. I keenly remember His passion being directed to making disciples. In producing disciples, we need leadership, but it’s not the other way around.
While I have no doubt about the wisdom of learning from others, in their respective fields, Woychowski completely missed the point with that statement (again, I wasn’t there and so even Tim S. may or may not have it out of context) as far as I am concerned.
So often we impair God’s designed influence, which He desires to exhibit through us, because of our own conscious efforts to be consistent and useful.
Jesus said there is only one way to develop and grow spiritually, and that is through focusing and concentrating on God. In essence, Jesus was saying, “Do not worry about being of use to others; simply believe on Me.”
In other words, pay attention to the Source, and out of you “will flow rivers of living water” (John 7:38 ).
We cannot discover the source of our natural life through common sense and reasoning, and Jesus is teaching here that growth in our spiritual life comes not from focusing directly on it, but from concentrating on our Father in heaven.
Our heavenly Father knows our circumstances, and if we will stay focused on Him, instead of our circumstances, we will grow spiritually— just as “the lilies of the field.”
If the speaker is a business guru and not a Christ-follower, I can see why he would make that statement. He wouldn’t understand what it means to follow Christ.
From the conference website: Dr. Woychowski has been active in civic and volunteer work. He developed and led the efforts of his community’s involvement in setting up refugee camps in Albania and Kosovo during the conflict in the Balkans, making three trips to the region during that crisis. He has served his community as a paramedic and is the lead elder at his church.
Don’t know if you’ve seen it but SNL does a new bit on their Weekend Update spot called “Really?” where they take statements made in the news and question them with mock disbelief.
That quote totally made me think of that…
“The single most important element in your ministry is leadership.”
Really?
“More important than worship, discipleship or missions.”
Really??
“Because without good leadership–you can’t do any of that.”
REALLY??? You can’t do any of that? So in places where there aren’t any Type-A, corporate-enhanced, mega-church-styled leaders there is no worship, discipleship or missions? Really?
Somebody better tell the underground church in China, or the entire non-western church period, to stop VASTLY outpacing the North American church in exactly those three areas… at least until they get themselves state-side to finally learn a thing or two about proper leadership from the experts who will relay to them in bottled-water-and-free-pen break-out sessions the recycled but highly quotable sound-bites that they will forget a day later.
Are we as the North American church still this delusional about our place on the world stage of God’s Kingdom?
I have to seriously question what that speaker means when he uses the terms worship, discipleship and missions.
I have been greatly helped by some conferences… the Leadership Summit in particular. But I wonder what would truly happen if there was a moratorium on church leadership conferences. Like say for 5 years and then Barna could do his thing and analyse what the impact has been on the state of worship, discipleship and missions in the NA church.
If any.
nooc
p.s.
SNL of course is an evil, evil show that christians shouldn’t watch and apart from watching it every weekend I in no way support, condone or promote it. Especially ever since they mocked the religious right’s efforts to re-name dinosaurs “Jesus horses”.
leadership can be first if it first means being servant of all as Jesus taught. i love the book “servant leadership.” nothing breaks it down better in my not so humble opinion.
I’ve heard over and over again from several of todays top Christian leaders that everything rises and falls on leadership. I couldn’t disagree more with the above statement. I KNOW everything rises and falls on our RELATIONSHIP with Jesus. You keep that the number one priority in your life and everything else will fall into place. “Seek the Kingdom of God above all else, and live righteously, and He will give you everything you need.” Matthew 6:33 NLT
Terry is a strong follower of Christ who is living out his faith in the market place. Terry said it in his session, but I have believed it for a long time. It’s the missing component in a lot of ministries. Great hearts. Great ideas. Great theology. But no ability to spread the gospel or get anything done because of the lack of leadership.
Don’t read into it. It doesn’t mean that worship or missions or discipleship aren’t important. Those are at the core of the purposes of the church. However, you won’t be effective at multiplying disciples or leading lots of people into missions without some gifted leaders who have their hearts and ears open to the voice of God.
Tim,
Thanks for coming over and commenting. I look forward to the honest discussion that will likely continue. I think you can replace the word “leader” with “Christ-follower” in your comment.
I’m not saying God does not gift some with leadership abilities, I just don’t believe it’s the only way, or even the most important means of being “effective” in ministry. I know and have been led by some great leaders, and hopefully have influenced those I can as well.
I personally don’t believe one has to be (or have) a leader (apart from Christ) in order to be effective in sharing the gospel or making disciples. I believe “The eyes of the Lord search the whole earth in order to strengthen those whose hearts are fully committed to him” and through His grace are we only able to accomplish his will, and not in our own strength or abilities. That’s what kind of makes it supernatural and mystical.
Thanks again :)
with what i’m walking through right now… i couldn’t disagree more with that quote. but it is true, i don’t know the true context in which the quote was taken by Tim or in what context “Terry” was referring. but as the quote stands… disagree. oh goodness.
I think maybe the difference is one can do worship, discipleship, or missions by himself or herself just fine. But, if you want to get a lot of people doing those things and form a unified congregation you must have leadership.
I’ve experienced a church with a head person (can’t say leader) who can do all three of those things great but he can’t build a church to be a force in the community for Christ if his life depends on it.
I don’t think we need to pit practical, organizational smarts against things like worship, discipleship, etc. Just look at Jesus. Brilliant leader AND worshiper, disciple-maker, etc.
but how separable are worship and leadership especially in terms of the local church? since when is worship ever a “thing” someone “does” or an “act” someone “performs”? worship is not just a posture we can “activate” and it’s definitely not just a “ministry.” the church IS worship. the church IS mission. the church is those who have been reconciled together as the New Humanity, the body of our Lord, embodying the truth he has given us. so, we are the incarnation of truth, moved, according to God’s purposes by the power of the Spirit. worship is who we ARE, not just something we do. it becomes the ontological reality of the regenerated life in Christ. our mission IS our worship IS our being.
tim, i’d be interested to hear how this perspective on leadership deals with texts like 1 Cor 12 where Paul speaks of church leadership in terms of how well one contributes to the church – that is, they are determined leaders not by some special status but by how well they build up the church. leadership is established in the context of worship. and the Romans 12 “living sacrifice” (speaking of God’s community in Christ). can they really be separate? worship must always come first, for it is the primary purpose of the elect (see paragraph above).
i don’t believe Christian leaders are responsible for “leading people into missions” or “multiplying disciples” (although there is no doubt they play a large part). These are the acts of Jesus, who is made present to the world by the Spirit, who powers his Church, the embodiment of the new covenant. in this incarnational perspective, Jesus Christ is the head, and the parts which make up his body are responsible for fulfilling their role, a practice made possible by a renewed mind which understands the complete, self-denying, commonality-loving “all-of-life” sacrifice.
church pragmatism says “A works. therefore A is good. every good thing comes from above. therefore A is good for the church.” theology says, “what does the entire biblical story of God’s covenant with his people say? how did Jesus Christ alter that? what do the particular texts about the church say for the original audience, and how do we make sense of them for our time and place?” it’s very tempting to look at business models and read marketing books and see how well they work before we even take a look about what the scriptures might have to say. it is a hermeneutical mistake to take a modern, Western philosophical position and impose it on the text. to approach the text with a presupposition of which the original audience would have no understanding or awareness would be to make the texts say something that they don’t. this idea is gaining momentum, and it’s quite dangerous and unfaithful to the word.
“don’t read into it.” why not? is the truth we’ve been given not important enough to devote our time to developing a proper perspective on it? or at least significant and holistic enough of question?
[to use anne’s words, “stepping off soap-box…”]
I have stepped into the blog world at an odd time. I was just logging in after a day of conferencing (not the one you are referring to) to say that I’m looking forward to bringing some peeps over to your church tomorrow!
Okay…back to the matter at hand…(and no, I’m not touching it, my brain is a shriveled mess of goo after a full day of learning/talking/seeing/thinking so I’ll leave it up to the other pundits to carry this one on…)
What is leadership? We are all leaders, when you think of it. Leading is going before and taking others with you. It is relational, in one sense. So, it is true, I think, that we need leadership–the act of bringing people along from one point to the next–in order to move a church or any group.
Too many churches never go anywhere (most are on decline and our dying by the way) since no goals are set, no accountability is in place and no vision is ever carved out. These all take risk and hard work–prayer, for instance. Things just do not happen on their own. Someone has to be the guy or gal who says “let’s go”. Few wish to do this. Few wish to lead. But, we are all leaders at some level. Right?
If you read the history of Israel (Kings specifically) you will see a direct relationship with the leader and the people. If the leader/king “did evil in the eyes of the LORD” the people followed. If he did what pleased the LORD the people returned to the LORD and followed in obedience.
The lesson…as a follower of Christ (my Leader) I am personally responsible to obey Him. Yes, I follow Christ, but the leaders God has placed around me set the tone and example. As a human, I have a built-in tendancy to follow a leader.
As a church Leader, I am personally responsible to obey Christ. The problem is, since I am a church leader, I have the ability to either lead others down the path of obedience (worship, service, evangelism) or diobedience. That is why the Scripture is clear that as a teacher/leader, I have a higher level of accountability since others are watching my example.
Scripture also states: Without a leader, the people perish.
Is this “right” or “as it should be”? Probably not…but we live in a fallen world….
I thought that was without vision…which doesn’t necessarily have to be man-given…? A classic commentary I love reads about this verse:
That gospel is an open vision, which holds forth Christ, which humbles the sinner and exalts the Saviour, which promotes holiness in the life and conversation: and these are precious truths to keep the soul alive, and prevent it from perishing.
I’m still not dissing on leadership, but to say you can’t have X, Y, Z without it is bull. :) That’s all I’m sayin’, yo.
My deepest apologies….
It is indeed without a vision the people perish…
Please disregard all my previous comments….and the historical evidence of the nation of Israel….
I simply believe that the way people are created…we follow leaders…perhaps part of our sin nature….you know, like always wanting to be right…and wanting to speed…
I am sure that the original quote had some exaggeration in it to get the listener’s attention…which it clearly did.
In fact, the gentleman may have proved his point…he has beautifully sucked us all into a very interesting discussion about the balance and relationship between leadership, obedience, and discipleship….
I would ask this question…when you fly on a plane, which part of the plane is most important? The left wing, the right wing, the engine, the rudder? Pick ONE! Really, you can’t. What makes a plane work well is that all of these elements are working together to allow flight. When I lose a single one of these things, I have an EMERGENCY.
Just like the church….which is most important? Worship, Evangelism, Discipleship, Leadership, Obedience? Pick ONE! You really can’t. Lose a single element and you have an EMERGENCY (ask Crystal).
A church with amazing worship is probably the result of a worship LEADER who LEADS people in worship. A combination of worship, obedience, and leadership.
A church with an amazing leader who does not obey the Lord is doomed….God will not be mocked, whatever a man sows, that he will reap. This leader may be a leader but is clearly lacking obedience.
The WHOLE package is required. I think we love to boil it down to ONE THING, but it is not possible.
christ.
it is the one thing.
i truly believe it is that simple.
a church (the Church) with amazing worship (lifestyle) can only happen because we worship through spirit and truth. i have been led into a very intimate conversation with my Father by a guy whose voice is heavenly, whose music is beyond description and yet he is not a christ-follower. but the spirit moved through my mind, body, and soul through this. i have no doubt of Christ’s illumination in the curtain club that night, amidst the cigarette smoke and sound of broken bottles being thrown into metal containers.
jimmy gnecco is not a worship leader. but i let down my guard and the spirit within me spoke to my heart during the time i listened to him play and sing.
that was true communion with my Father.
sans leader.
and really, besides my husband in that room, sans the Church.
the Church is so encompassing, we can’t define it…as is worship, etc.
we only need the spirit.
At some point one has to be able to have some assumptions…
If I make a statement like…the key to running fast is leg-strength….
The assumption is that you also have to have a beating heart, a brain that sends and receives nerve messages, legs, blood vessels, lungs, ect.
I would never argue that anything apart from the result Christ breathing through me would be worth anything. At some level, in the context of church leadership, that factor must be assumed.
My premise is simply that excellent corporate worship is the result of a leader who understands worship, a people who are prepared for worship, and the anointing of the Holy Spirit on the whole activity. Is it one thing? Yes and no…yes, it is all GOD. But no, it is not just worship, it is not just leadership….in fact, I have seen where the Holy Spirit was so in the room and active, but was SQUISHED by bad leadership in the Tech area or the Worship area…because the leader was not in tune with the Spirit.
I would imagine there was a bit of hyperbole used to demonstrate the absurdity of some current prevailing wisdom that a church doesn’t need to worry about leadership as long as there is creativity and authenticity and mercy and all that…. Was his hyperbole right? Probably not. But I think we live in a world of extremes. So one extreme is a church absent of leadership and the other is a church that worships leadership. I don’t think either view is Biblical (or actually functional).
My bet is that we are saying the same thing, but just coming at it from a different angle…
I have to write a lesson on Judges 21. Last verse of the book says this: Judges 21:25 In those days Israel had no king; everyone did as he saw fit.
Sounds like a leadership issue…. (God was supposed to be their King).
:-)
very interesting.
Could this all come down to our definitions of “effective” or “successful” ministry and by whose standards?
I know a former church leader with an enormous leadership gift. Had no clue that corporate worship was important. I’m not kidding. About 10 years into the church, he realized worship isn’t just for people who are “into that sort of thing”. Huge leadership and evangelism gifts with a heart wrenching passion for the lost, whose church almost imploded until drastic changes were made.
If Terry’s comment is true, then that church should have been multiplying exponentially. So, again, how are you defining “effective ministry”?
Ah, the collision of organizational business principles and faith in Christ…
Churches are organizations. Big ones, small ones, etc. Organizations tend to need leaders.
My faith and my belief in the Scripture is not an organization, and need not be dependant on one. It needs one leader – Christ.
While my faith can be encouraged and strengthened by the organization that is “the Church”, it can exist without it.
(Please save your replies about how the church is important and that the Bible says I should be in community with other believers – I get that. I’m not arguing otherwise. Fellowship is important.)
I don’t think my concern here is that the church is too dependant on leadership to function. It’s more that I can too easily become dependant on the church for my faith.
Something about giving a man a fish or teaching a man to fish…
I think that this generation of twentysomethings has had an adverse reaction to legalism and is prone to independent thought crippled by the its inability to submit to authority. As such, I think that leadership is very essential and central to all aspects of ministry.
Instead of saying follow Christ, Paul writes to the Corinthians (1 Cor. 4:16) to imitate him. Why didn’t he just say imitate Christ? The truth here is that a great many people in the Church need a tangible presence of Christ and receive it through leadership.
Yet, with all things, there is a tendency to lose focus of Christ and make leadership your god.
Quoting from above:
“I have to write a lesson on Judges 21. Last verse of the book says this: Judges 21:25 In those days Israel had no king; everyone did as he saw fit.
Sounds like a leadership issue…. (God was supposed to be their King).”
Here’s 1 Samuel 12
12 “But when you saw that Nahash king of the Ammonites was moving against you, you said to me, ‘No, we want a king to rule over us’-even though the LORD your God was your king. 13 Now here is the king you have chosen, the one you asked for; see, the LORD has set a king over you. 14 If you fear the LORD and serve and obey him and do not rebel against his commands, and if both you and the king who reigns over you follow the LORD your God-good! 15 But if you do not obey the LORD, and if you rebel against his commands, his hand will be against you, as it was against your fathers.
16 “Now then, stand still and see this great thing the LORD is about to do before your eyes! 17 Is it not wheat harvest now? I will call upon the LORD to send thunder and rain. And you will realize what an evil thing you did in the eyes of the LORD when you asked for a king.”
Seems like sometimes asking for a leader is an insult to God.
Maybe our American business style of church organization inhibits the Holy Spirit. Maybe it insults God.
Leading is NOT one of the spiritual gifts listed. Leadership, by itself, is a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.
Just some thoughts
Wow, thanks for the thoughts. I have often had trouble with the emphasis on leadership. I’ve attended two Christian colleges and even received a leadership scholarship at one, but I don’t really feel that I am an exceptional leader. I’m more independent than a follower, and I think I will become more of a leader as I mature, but I don’t think it’s one of my primary gifts, and I feel sometimes like “leader” and “mature Christian” are made out to be synonymous, when in reality “servant” and “mature Christian” are synonymous.
That being said, leadership IS extremely important, and I think what they were saying is that the leadership needs to be right in order for anything else to be right – but you’re right, they need to be careful how that’s worded.
completely agree. it’s one of the reasons church conferences are difficult to support…seems like there’s so much teaching that is void of people’s passionate relationship and interaction with a holy God.
I know this is old, and no one may ever see this, but I think you hit on something here.
It pains me to see people claim that the Holy Spirit’s work could be squelched by any work of man. To me that is akin to saying that someone might not come to salvation because I don’t have the right words to say.
God does not need leaders of men to do his work. Is leadership in a church good? Well of course. But is corporate type leadership needed for the modern church to flourish like the early church? Certainly not.
It concerns me when I hear people claim that the modern church needs more business men and less scholars.
As far as components of a church leadership would not be a wing or an engine to carry the analogy, but a GPS locater system. Does a good mortal leader make the working of the church easier and more efficient? Certainly. Can the church function with Christ as its only leader? Just like navigating by charts and compasses, it can and certainly has been done.
Mike